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Deranged Disaster
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
415
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Posted - 2013.07.14 06:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
So after playing over 200 PC matches, putting aside all the framerate, hit detection and aiming mess ups there are some problems that will need to be adressed no matter what, otherwise competitive gaming in this game will never be balanced and how it should be.
First of all, Caldari logis. This, not only does it give a huge tactical advantage to the people that use it because of the ridiculous amount of drop uplinks it can drop, it is also a very, VERY viable pushing/defending and all around groundpounding suit. If this is not adressed ASAP, the Caldari logistics will be the way to go if you want to win.
Second, contact grenades. I cannot stress out how ridiculous contact grenades are, they just need to be completely removed. I don't want to be the guy that buys aurum just for contact grenades if I want to win.
Third, Flaylock Pistol. Another ridiculous weapon that needs to either get REMOVED or rebalanced heavily.
And last, Mass Driver. The mass driver has proven to be very, very painful with it's blast radius, making it easily one of the most spammable weapons in the game.
I hope this thread is not taken lightly at all. I know most of the people playing this game are only here because of it's surprisingly competitive side, which will slowly sink into instawin gear or "flavor of the month" weapons if these things are not adressed. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4887
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Posted - 2013.07.14 07:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mass drivers are fine. Big blast radius, but still very low DPS compared to something like the AR, has slow moving rounds, and gravitational arc; makes it fair IMO. Most people still do better with an AR because of DPS, range, and versatility. Someone spams a mass driver at you, just spam your AR bullets at them.
Contact grenades need to be removed, or get a serious damage nerf. They do too much damage to not have a fuse time.
Flaylock should probably get a splash damage reduction, at least the prototype one since that's the one most people seem to have problems with.
The Caldari logi is indeed OP. Needs to have a low slot removed, and replaced with a equipment slot. They should maybe rethink that bonus as well. The drop uplink thing seems like an off complaint though since the Minmatar and Gallente logi have more equipment slot in prototype. Logi balance thread explining why Cal logi needs a nerf: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=93653&find=unread |
Deranged Disaster
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
415
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Posted - 2013.07.14 07:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
The only reason I pointed out about the drop uplinks was one example of the tactical advantages the suit gives besides it's raw power. I don't believe the mass drivers are fine though and you cannot possibly compare a support weapon with an offensive weapon. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4888
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Posted - 2013.07.14 08:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
"support weapon"? what, does it shoot out nanohives and heal teammates? Its a weapon, its meant to kill; a weapon is by definition offensive. |
Vyzion Eyri
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
939
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Posted - 2013.07.14 08:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
I think a more pronounced arc on the Mass Driver would make it actually useful for firing from behind cover, but still increase skill required to use it. Currently the projectile fires fairly straight at short-medium range, and that's what makes it so easy for us to bunny hop and fire at your feet, as the projectiles don't take long at all to get there. With a harder arc, however, long range becomes a bit messy, and I think that's why they're so OP right now. CCP wanted MDs to work at longer ranges, but this meant their projectile trajectories had to be insanely OP at shorter ranges. I propose, therefore, that MDs should be shoulder mounted... okay no. I actually have no real solution atm.
As for Caldari Logis and uplinks, you haven't gone against Hellstorm in PC by any chance, have you? :P They made up 70% of the PC battles I fought, and my salvage is, funnily enough, filled with Logistics ck.0, aurum complex shield extenders and aurum complex shield regulators, aurum drop uplinks and DTARs.
Your problem with Flaylocks I can agree with (although it's a bit hypocritical considering I use MDs). Their fitting cost rivals that of grenades, and they're much more effective. I think a little less damage and splash and higher fitting costs, compensated by a passive which increases maximum ammo carried and extra variants which fire bursts, longer ranges, larger clip sizes. Hell, introduce fluxlocks, too. I could get around that. (okay, okay, I'm also an armour tanker)
Contact nades I see the least, although when they do strike they're a bloody pain in the butt. I'd say keep them, but bundle them with dropships, just for the lulz.
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Deranged Disaster
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
415
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Posted - 2013.07.14 09:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:"support weapon"? what, does it shoot out nanohives and heal teammates? Its a weapon, its meant to kill; a weapon is by definition offensive. Where does it say "support" in the description? Why would anyone spend skill points and ISK on a "support weapon"? Support weapon as in crowd control weapon, hence the name Mass Driver. There are alot of people that play a support role that would spend both skill points and isk on a support weapon, like logistics users that want to help their teammates. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4888
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Posted - 2013.07.14 09:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
Deranged Disaster wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:"support weapon"? what, does it shoot out nanohives and heal teammates? Its a weapon, its meant to kill; a weapon is by definition offensive. Where does it say "support" in the description? Why would anyone spend skill points and ISK on a "support weapon"? Support weapon as in crowd control weapon, hence the name Mass Driver. There are alot of people that play a support role that would spend both skill points and isk on a support weapon, like logistics users that want to help their teammates. Nothing about the term mass driver implies support though, and its DPS is already very poor (even with direct hits) in comparison to an AR in exchange for its crowd control ability. If it gets nerfed, than a logi would be better off with an AR to kill enemies as a means of helping teammates. |
Cosgar
ParagonX
2642
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Posted - 2013.07.14 10:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
-Flux Grenade
-Engage at mid range
-Don't engage in CQC
-Get above them |
Beeeees
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
44
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Posted - 2013.07.14 10:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Finally, after months, someone crying about being killed by a mass driver!
Now to business
If you havent noticed, MDs were hard to aim, unwieldy potato launchers for a long time. Now MDs are hard to aim, unwieldy grenade launchers. They do damage now, yes I know, crazy.
And they will allways be outclassed in direct battle by hitscan weapons, unless teamwork is involved.
Remember, a gun is only OP if its good outside of its effective role. And if they happen to gang up on you with MDs, well, you wont cry rivers if they did that with duvolles, now would you?
And the problem with the godlock(not flaylocks in general), is that it has literally no downsides. There is no insensetive not to roll it at any given situation. As competetive play tends towards rushing and steamrolling, the gun with the highest effective DPS is the gun of choice, which happens to be godlock right now due to its ridiculous splash damage. |
KingBlade82
The Phoenix Federation
81
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Posted - 2013.07.14 10:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
OP I agree with all ur points +1 |
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Django Quik
R.I.f.t
924
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Posted - 2013.07.14 11:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:-Flux Grenade
-Engage at mid range
-Don't engage in CQC
-Get above them You can only carry 3 fluxes at a time - this is hardly enough to combat teams of calogis.
It's impossible to know if someone is carrying contact grenades until you're already hit and dead, so there's no preparing for encountering them.
On the contrary, I find that running right up to flaylock (and mass driver) users and jumping around a lot really messes them up because they know that pointblank use will kill them too.
It's not always possible to get above other players - in fact on very few maps are there enough vertical aspects to be able to do this. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
924
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Posted - 2013.07.14 11:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
As another point - I think all explosive weapons that have significant splash radii should have much lower splash DPS. Things like missiles, grenades, flaylocks (mass drivers less so but still a little) - the direct hit damage should be high but splash low and the wider the splash, the lower the damage. In fact, why is it that you get the exact same splash damage at the very edge of the splash radius as you do right next to the impact spot? Surely there should be a damage falloff for the splash radius? That would solve all sorts of the OP issues people have with explosive weapons. |
Deranged Disaster
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
417
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Posted - 2013.07.14 11:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Beeeees wrote:Finally, after months, someone crying about being killed by a mass driver! Now to business If you havent noticed, MDs were hard to aim, unwieldy potato launchers for a long time. Now MDs are hard to aim, unwieldy grenade launchers. They do damage now, yes I know, crazy. And they will allways be outclassed in direct battle by hitscan weapons, unless teamwork is involved. Remember, a gun is only OP if its good outside of its effective role. And if they happen to gang up on you with MDs, well, you wont cry rivers if they did that with duvolles, now would you? And the problem with the godlock(not flaylocks in general), is that it has literally no downsides. There is no insensetive not to roll it at any given situation. As competetive play tends towards rushing and steamrolling, the gun with the highest effective DPS is the gun of choice, which happens to be godlock right now due to its ridiculous splash damage. I am not crying about the Mass Drivers, and I have used Mass Drivers in the past and this build, before and after they got accidentally buffed. I am not entirely sure if you are understanding the role of the MD and alot of people seem to believe the weapon is ment to be viable for someone to use as a slayer, which is not. Like I said on my previous post, it's a crowd control weapon. What I'm trying to suggest with this is that it's splash radius should be reduced enough so that it won't take down entire groups of people with 3-5 shots. |
Bendtner92
Internal Error. League of Infamy
728
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Posted - 2013.07.14 11:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
All the stuff mentioned in the OP should be reworked.
Caldari Logi, yes too good.
Contact nades, not going to say anything other than CCP better start listening to their community and press the delete button on these.
Flaylocks, as I said in another thread, whoever said good for the current Flaylock numbers is a clown. From what I hear there's a fix coming for it in 1.3, thankfully. It should've been fixed right after Fanfest though, so it's about time.
Mass Drivers, in my opinion they should go back to 4 shots a clip. Their damage is just fine I believe, but they just don't need 6 shots a clip. If up against shield tankers Flux + 1-2 shots kills them. If up against armor tankers 4 shots is more than enough to kill them. 6 shots a clip is just overkill. |
Beeeees
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
45
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Posted - 2013.07.14 11:21:00 -
[15] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:As another point - I think all explosive weapons that have significant splash radii should have much lower splash DPS. Things like missiles, grenades, flaylocks (mass drivers less so but still a little) - the direct hit damage should be high but splash low and the wider the splash, the lower the damage. In fact, why is it that you get the exact same splash damage at the very edge of the splash radius as you do right next to the impact spot? Surely there should be a damage falloff for the splash radius? That would solve all sorts of the OP issues people have with explosive weapons.
The point of missiles is the splash damage, same for grenades, flaylocks are fine except the godlock, and converting the MD to a direct hit weapon defeats its purpose entirely, its meant to be shot around corners and behind boxes.
Damage fall off would require higher overall splash radius, which would rustle a lot of jimmies, but its still a very good idea IMHO. |
Beeeees
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
45
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Posted - 2013.07.14 11:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Bendtner92 wrote:
Mass Drivers, in my opinion they should go back to 4 shots a clip. Their damage is just fine I believe, but they just don't need 6 shots a clip. If up against shield tankers Flux + 1-2 shots kills them. If up against armor tankers 4 shots is more than enough to kill them. 6 shots a clip is just overkill.
Which would again degrade their status from "suppression and area denial weapon" to "confetti launcher". I for myself cant fit flux because in my role of supporting the squad my most pressing responsibility right now is to carry AV nades for obvious reasons. You do get kills with the MD just fine, but for all its worth, its less of a slaying and more of a rageinducing weapon right now. But this comes with the territorry.
Deranged Disaster wrote:What I'm trying to suggest with this is that it's splash radius should be reduced enough so that it won't take down entire groups of people with 3-5 shots. But it should be, if it cant do that, why should one fear it?
Its the same logic behind the HMG nerf, a suppression weapon does need to have slayer potential, but only the potential. Like if someones dumb enough to run in a bullet stream head on. Now the HMG is just a very short range slayer weapon. |
Deranged Disaster
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
417
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Posted - 2013.07.14 11:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Beeeees wrote:But it should be, if it cant do that, why should one fear it?
Its the same logic behind the HMG nerf, a suppression weapon does need to have slayer potential, but only the potential. Like if someones dumb enough to run in a bullet stream head on. Now the HMG is just a very short range slayer weapon. I figured you are were an MD user. By saying groups I mean 4-5 people, if that sounds logical to you then please, stop replying to this thread. I am perfectly ok with getting killed by MDs, but the abillity to wipe out an entire squad with one clip is not logical. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4890
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Posted - 2013.07.14 12:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
Deranged Disaster wrote:Beeeees wrote:But it should be, if it cant do that, why should one fear it?
Its the same logic behind the HMG nerf, a suppression weapon does need to have slayer potential, but only the potential. Like if someones dumb enough to run in a bullet stream head on. Now the HMG is just a very short range slayer weapon. I figured you are were an MD user. By saying groups I mean 4-5 people, if that sounds logical to you then please, stop replying to this thread. I am perfectly ok with getting killed by MDs, but the abillity to wipe out an entire squad with one clip is not logical. That's very far fetched unless the entire squad is in the blast radius. Stop standing so close together. |
Beeeees
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
46
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Posted - 2013.07.14 12:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
Deranged Disaster wrote: I figured you are were an MD user. By saying groups I mean 4-5 people, if that sounds logical to you then please, stop replying to this thread. I am perfectly ok with getting killed by MDs, but the abillity to wipe out an entire squad with one clip is not logical.
I am full time ScR user actually, MDs are a hobby. Yeah brah, I have no problems wiping out a group of 4 with the scrambler if they behave like retards, why shouldnt I be able to with an MD? Does being ******** in open field somehow grant one immunity to explosives? Should AR blobs and conga lines be encouraged? I dont think so.
Besides, I think a 4th(6 rounds) of your entire ammo pool should be more than enough to kill 4 people. With the scrambler I literally only ran out of ammo once all the time I was using it. A single clip is enough to kill a squad and some more if you-Śre careful. So yeah. |
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