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The Attorney General ZionTCD 336	Posted - 2013.07.12 05:38:00 - [1] - Quote That is an interesting list of complaints. Even more interesting is the list of signees. Some of you are better than this, and should shake the pessimism from your heads. The rest of you don't surprise me. To the points: 1) Content will get here when it does. You know CCP sucks at getting stuff released, don't cry about it. 2) Forge gun range is fine, swarms could maybe come down 20 or 30 m. 3) Armor resists are fine. 4) You forgot 4. 5) How often do you guys lose tanks? I make a healthy profit taking and I don't redline tank. Anybody who pops my tank has to work for it. As long as I don't make a mistake I live. Welcome to new Eden. 6) The shield v armor balance needs to be worked on with Blam, not handled in a shameful petition.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 346	Posted - 2013.07.12 19:37:00 - [2] - Quote Void Echo wrote: so wanting advanced and prototype havs would unbalance a game where infantry has advanced and prototype av weapons available? There is a big difference between wanting something, and demanding that it be done immediately. No one knows where Blam went, or who is leading the vehicle section. Trying to make these types of gestures just makes people look bad. If the vehicle team is without a leader, it might be a LONG time before we see any changes. I hate to say it, but everyone needs to sac up and deal with that reality. Do you not think that heavies want their racial variants? Same goes for the light frames. DS pilots need more help than any tankers right now, but yet here you guys are trying to get more for the tankers. Did no one even read the post from Blam back when uprising came out regarding the speed change? It is a racial trait that the Gallente have better propulsion. Is it good for balance? I personally don't think so, but that is a discussion we need to have with the devs, not presented as a page of crying. Honestly, the thread where Exmaple and I were having a back and forth was far more productive than this laundry list of complaints, most of which are just the bawls of children who want to be able to run up into a horde of enemy and slay them all without backup. I feel for the guys who have specced into Caldari tanks expecting to get an AT capable monster that can shrug off expolsive damage all day. But instead of presenting a list of demands, how about we have a rational discussion about the weaknesses and present arguments and most importantly, potential solutions that are practical and would not unbalance things. Anyone who wants an 8 low slot Gallente tank is bad and should feel bad about asking for something that would be so blatantly OP, regardless of price. At some point in time, there will be transfers from EvE, and then ISK won't matter to certain factions, and what will happen then? Certain corps have a rep for pubstomping already, imagine if you gave them a trillion ISK and said go have some fun kids. Could shield tanks use better regen and active hardeners that are worth something? Of course, but that is a totally different discussion from this thread, which is a lot of bad tankers feeling sorry for themselves and demanding all sorts of stuff from a dev house that is notoriously bad at being punctual. The OP tanks of pre Uprising are gone. Let them go, you won't get them back. Instead lets all put our heads together and think about ways we can restore parity, or more clearly defined roles for the vehicles we do have while we wait and see what the pilots suits bring us. We know they are coming, and if it takes until 1.4, so be it. Patience is a virtue most tankers should have by now. Lets see how they change things before we go all mental asking for things we don't need because some tankers just can't hack it. Lastly, I want to say this one thing , so that you guys can understand where I am really coming from: Choosing to be a tanker is putting a massive target on your back, and if you are anything other than terrible the enemy team must counter you. The faster they do this, the better for them. No tank should survive a co-ordinated squad seeking to take it down. Especially in PC, where you can expect nothing but proto AV, and proper tactics. If you cannot deal with being a primary target, don't tank. If you cannot understand that as soon as you bring in your tank you become a focal point for the enemy team, don't tank. You can be winning a match handily and the enemy just might send a couple of LAV's packed with AV troops to come after just you. If you can't accept that fact, then maybe infantry is where you should be. This is not directed at you Void, as I know you know how to tank, but rather for the new guys who are getting kicked around and wondering why it is happening. I shouldn't have to write these types of posts for people who call themselves tankers.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 346	Posted - 2013.07.12 22:09:00 - [3] - Quote TakeCover OrDie wrote: The Attorney General your obviously just a troll it doesn't take a squad to destroy a tank me single handedly can destroy and harrass a 1.5 mill dollar tank with just a swarm launcher or with a forge up on the roof. Yea we all know tanks have a target painted on them much like a proto setinel but i rarely ever have a well cordinated av attack squad against my tank it's just want 60k ballsy forge gun up on a roof or a swarm in a logi lav Have a director attack the zion district. If you can solo my tank before I destroy every installation on the field, I will cover the cost of the attack.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 347	Posted - 2013.07.13 00:16:00 - [4] - Quote Thanks for ruining the fun pato. It wasn't an open challenge, just an open invitation for the op to show his chops. Just like his tanking his AV is subpar.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 348	Posted - 2013.07.13 03:35:00 - [5] - Quote TakeCover OrDie wrote: Make sure to tell everyone you know about this post So they can join the scrub club?
The Attorney General ZionTCD 414	Posted - 2013.07.15 15:06:00 - [6] - Quote Jesus you guys are petty. Substitute Marauder for proto in his statement if you need to feel better. You refuse to debate someone without them using your terms, so that you can highlight what you consider to be your plight. I am starting to understand why Blam committed seppuku, just to get away from you guys.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 416	Posted - 2013.07.15 16:13:00 - [7] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: Why didn't they buff AV instead of nerfing tanks? just make vehicles like they were in Chromo (but no invincible soma!) (this means fixing PG! so we can use our heavy shield reppers and extenders or 180 mm plates and heavy reppers with out 3 complex PG modules) Advanced tanks would be nice as well. When you get your skills up you can fit a Heavy Efficient repper, a 180 mm Nano plate, and a proto rail with only 1 PG extender.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 416	Posted - 2013.07.15 16:25:00 - [8] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: The Attorney General wrote: Jesus you guys are petty. Substitute Marauder for proto Stopped reading there Marauder was never proto, you dont know what you are talking about Never said it was. I said substitute the use of the word proto with Marauder. Thanks for trying to troll, but you should get past basic english comprehension before attempting to play. No wonder you guys can't get CCP to help buff your stuff, you can't even figure out how to deconstruct a sentence let alone concepts like game balance.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 416	Posted - 2013.07.15 16:34:00 - [9] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: You cant sub it in The whole post was based on this mythical proto tank the OP was harping on about and going against Your solution was subbing in Marauder for proto Ergo Marauder = Proto Ergo you still fail The post you are referring to was someone saying that Marauders were hard to kill. He mistakenly called them proto. The rest is you trying to be smart, but failing horribly. Just because you think you are smart doesn't make it so. Sadly, when you grow up a little this will sink in. Probably about the time you get KTFO'd for trying to use ergo in a bar at 2 a.m. Have fun with that.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 416	Posted - 2013.07.15 16:37:00 - [10] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: And tge atoury there has dissagreed with every other tanker I know. Incorrect. Exmaple and I had a very productive discussion on improving Shield tanks. Keep on thinking that all dissent is some sort of infantry bias. That really makes you seem reasonable.

The Attorney General ZionTCD 418	Posted - 2013.07.15 18:50:00 - [11] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Every single infantry player and AV'er seems to think like this: "Every tank must be soloable by militia AV." What if we tankers suddenly started asking for: "Every dropsuit with an AV weapon must be killed by one militia AR bullet." Because that's what you're trying to do: trying to nerf us to extinction. It's not enough for you that our current STD tanks can be 3 shotted by PRO AV? For shield tankers, they especially get the shaft because armor tanks are better, which means they have to be aware for both AV and armor tanks. It seems that whenever tanks above STD level are brought into question, every infantry player tries to nerf vehicles. But when it comes to proto pubstomping, you only complain about matchmaking . You don't call for nerfs on proto suits and proto weapons. So don't talk away ideas about ADV and PRO vehicles, because in reality it's matchmaking that's at fault. I say, fix matchmaking, bring in ADV and PRO vehicles, and balance shield and armor between tanks. That type of response is hilariously ridiculous. I love how people act as if the current situation is completely unacceptable because bad tankers get ripped apart. That hasn't changed from Chromosome. I'm not that good but I make a healthy profit. Clearly tanking can be sustainable provided you aren't an idiot. Yes proto AV hurts, but just one AV user can be avoided or killed before you go down, provided you don't make a mistake. Now, lets talk about something most of the tankers in these threads don't like to have mentioned. In Chromo, FG's did a little less damage than they do now, but they also had double the range. This made it much easier for a single FG to deny access to vast stretches of the field simply by getting into a good location and being aware. Now, they have much less area denial but are more effective within that area owing to the higher DPS output. In any situation where a FG can hit you, if you have a rail, you can hit them back. Doesn't matter where they are hiding, every map gives you an option to tilt your tank up enough to hit any place an FG can hide. If you are not aware of a FG, it can rip you apart very quickly. If a heavy can wait until you are already engaged then it will probably turn out poorly for you. Teamwork sucks like that. But in a 1 v 1, the tanker has the range and mobility advantage, and those are huge. As for swarms, the biggest issue in my eyes is the whole bunnyhopping while reloading and targetting BS. But that is a larger issue throughout the whole game. Add in the render issues, which are also a problem throughout the game, and they can be very frustrating. But there is a hard counter to the swarm launcher: the AR. You destroy the supply depot and let your infantry advance to clear out the AV troops. AV grenades are interesting, if only because I feel they are too strong at lower levels. I have no problem with Lai Dai packed, other than maybe giving them a longer refresh time from a hive. However the lower grade packed AV nades need to be toned down enough to encourage SP investment. As for ADV vehicles, I say we should start by reducing the movement penalty on Enforcer tanks. The main reason for the death of many a Falchion is the absolutely horrid acceleration preventing proper tactical movement in a firefight. However, one needs to be cautious with how much one makes changes, because it very quickly reaches a point where the Falchion or the Vayu would completely supplant the STD tanks if you take the penalty too low. Right now, there is almost zero reason to ever put a Vayu on the field. There is currently a place for the Falchion as the anchor to a pair of Maddy sweepers, but again, caution needs to be advised before you relegate the Gunnloggi to a non factor if you make the Falchion too good. For any future vehicles, it is important that we as the community get to have a dialogue with the devs about the intended role of the vehicle BEFORE it gets released. I won't engage in supposition about something that is on the drawing board. Lets instead do our best to initiate a discussion on those hypothetical vehicles so that we can help the devs to create a balanced vehicle that we as tankers can use, and the AV folks can still destroy if the have the right tools. I do not believe that merely having a proto tank should make you immune to being destroyed by low level AV, because stupid drivers deserve to lose their shirts just as much as bad proto assaults deserve to go ISK negative. Now, I know that the bad tankers, and the ones who used to have their crutches will not like these things that i have said. I don't care. Most of them have no AV experience, and simply want to be able to roll into a group of infantry and take their time picking them apart before rolling away to rep. That is a stupid idea, and not balanced at all. Any tanker who rolls up on a group of infantry without their own infantry to close with and kill the enemy deserves to get popped. Any tanker who believes that they should be able to operate in close environments without supporting troops deserves to get AV grenaded to death and have the enemy dancing on their hull like so many Afghans prancing on a T-72. But let us also be real here: I don't see infantry calling for tank nerfs. So don't pretend as if everyone is on a crusade to make the game really tough for you. At the same time though, the life of a tanker SHOULD be difficult. If you are any good, the enemy team should focus on wiping you out. They should send a squad after you. If that squad is any good, you should go down. I don't care if they have MLT swarms, or just three kamikaze douchebags out to Jihad Jeep you. If the enemy is prepared to throw 4 guys at you over and over, you will, and should go down if they are competent. Now watch the "tankers" fall over themselves calling me all sorts of names.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 418	Posted - 2013.07.15 18:56:00 - [12] - Quote Harpyja wrote: Perhaps you're lucky and the AV people you come across are not as skilled. Otherwise, Madrugars get destroyed by 3-4 proto SL volleys and Gunnlogis get destroyed by 4 proto assault FG shots. So, therefore, one single proto AV can solo our current tanks without needing to reload. Nanohive and AV grenade spam is just bull****. Don't you have reps and hardeners? When I see six missiles get fired(seeing them is another issue that is not tank specific) I don't mess around and keep going forward. I hit the repper, activate the hardeners and report to my infantry on where the AV troops are and quickly figure out how to get my infantry into contact with those AV guys. I routinely survive whole clips from Ishukone Assault forges without issue, and because I am aware of their range, normally by the time the fourth is fired I am at the extreme of their range or out of their sight. You know the great thing about the whole nanohive AV nade thing? You can hear them throw the hive down before they get started. If you are having that much trouble from nades, start moving more, but also equip a nitrous module to help you get out of AV range faster. It works wonders. If you are getting solo'd by proto AV, then there is a problem with your fit, your tactics, or your intelligence. That is the hard truth, and I am sorry to break it to you that way. If you are getting tackled by a proto AV while you are engaged with someone else, thats teamwork, enjoy the respawn screen.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 418	Posted - 2013.07.15 19:09:00 - [13] - Quote General John Ripper wrote: I want to sign but I also want my name to be in bold like all the cool guys at the top. Or just be like Charlotte and get all your alts to sign.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 418	Posted - 2013.07.15 19:24:00 - [14] - Quote Medic 1879 wrote: Last tank I lost was to a proto SL and wonder of wonders I could actually see the rounds so I carried on moving heading for cover and managed to tank 3 rounds using my hardener and my repper I got behind the wall thinking I am safe for the time being time to move. At this point the last SL rounds overshot the wall and did a perfect 120 degree turn on a sixpence to come back for me. The main issues I see are with SL's behaviour they can be fired from distances that render them invisible, they can defy physics with their turning abilities. The whole jumping/dancing while reloading/aiming thing happens with every gun nearly though to I wont mention that at the moment. Conversely as a user of proto swarms as well their behaviour can also be a hinderance, occasionally they seem to fire a few seconds after you wish them to, they seem to target the bottom of installations so if there is even a slight hill infront of it they will plow into that usually. Weird spreading effect, I have fired from the open before and they spread out a little then other times they seem to spread to the four corners of the world before heading to your target. Absolutely agreed on the odd behaviours of swarms at times. I have had them go through walls and crates, through turrets, and on one spectacular occasion orbiting a CRU to get a hit. Honestly, I am not sure how best to remedy such a problem, other than making them track straight to a target, rather than the location when they are fired then adjusting. Would make them much easier to fight if they were more predictable. The render distance thing is across the whole game, and affects everyone. Hopefully they can make some improvements soon on that front. The jumping reloading dance needs to go. It makes the game so stupid. Watching live streams the amount of bunnyhopping really turns me off of the whole ground game. It is so ridiculous that no one has ever come upon the idea of reduced accuracy after you press the jump button. Would make the game so much better.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 418	Posted - 2013.07.15 19:29:00 - [15] - Quote Void Echo wrote: The Attorney General wrote: General John Ripper wrote: I want to sign but I also want my name to be in bold like all the cool guys at the top. Or just be like Charlotte and get all your alts to sign. that's a little too far dude How so? I'm not letting someone who won't show up to a 1 v 1 after trash talking get off easy. Especially when they are trying to bolster their own cause by basically committing a fraud through inflating the signee count. Integrity counts for something. Charlotte has none.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 418	Posted - 2013.07.15 19:35:00 - [16] - Quote Void Echo wrote: you posting on this thread is just going too far.. Would you like to counter that really long post I put up? Please do so. Or is the substance of your opinion that you just want stronger tanks, and everyone else can go flap in the wind?
The Attorney General ZionTCD 418	Posted - 2013.07.15 19:50:00 - [17] - Quote Alpha 443-6732 wrote: Honestly I would just shut up before making a further fool of yourself, you're looking more like a fan of S & M than tanking. Along with all the drama and fallacies thrown into your arguements, and your inexperience with tanking (2 months... LOL). If you are so good at tanking, why don't I see you in PC dominating other tankers left and right? Why do you think you can insult us because you think we should adapt to something that is clearly broken? Why aren't we telling everyone to adapt to flaylocks? You must have me confused with someone who has something to prove. I came out on top of the best of the Imps in PC ringing for STB. Since they were the best in the game, and pretty much all retired afterwards, there is no real challenge left. But if your bosses want me to do your job for you, they can mail me and pay my fee. Or if you feel like throwing away 30 mill you can drop me a mail and respectfully ask for a 1 v 1. Otherwise, feel free to go back to your crying about how you can't make a profit, or AV is too strong, or how you can no longer go 30- 0 now that people have specced into real AV. Poor baby.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 421	Posted - 2013.07.15 20:32:00 - [18] - Quote Big long post on the last page, no talk of nerfs. Clearly vpid you can't read or you can't formulate a reply. Well done buddy. Alpha, that's funny. You try and talk down to me but won't put your money where your mouth is. Are you yet another of Charlottes alt?
The Attorney General ZionTCD 421	Posted - 2013.07.15 20:34:00 - [19] - Quote Void Echo wrote: daishi mk03 wrote: Void Echo wrote: funny thing is that noobs with even a months experience with tanks think that they know more about it that the real tankers do... sad thing is that people, who call themselves and each other "A-list tankers" and "best tank players", write that they get wrecked by a single forgegun in three shots. if its a standard forge gun, no it should do that, advanced... maybe, proto definitely, but standard and militia, absolutely not If you get three shot by any forge you don't know how to fit a tank.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 424	Posted - 2013.07.16 05:16:00 - [20] - Quote Eurydice Itzhak wrote: daishi mk03 wrote: Void Echo wrote: if its a standard forge gun, no it should do that, advanced... maybe, proto definitely, but standard and militia, absolutely not Take the proto breach version with 2,7k damage, +15% skills + mods +10% armor damage make it 4k armor damage / shot with a rather long charge up time and immobilizing the heavy. Those are the moments hardener / reppers are for and one-shotting this guy is better than trying to survive, but yeah, I still cannot see a certainly dead tank. Reality is different, for sure, a third of the enemies having AV grenades, maybe a Commando with a SL from somewhere + this freaking heavy. But life isn't easy for anybody ... Get out of that npc corp man. No one uses breach. It's all about assault and yes they will 3 or 4 shot me at proto level if they start in an advantageous position. I took a full mag from a Gastuns Forge today. Didn't even move because I knew the FG user. Build your tank better.

The Attorney General ZionTCD 424	Posted - 2013.07.16 05:25:00 - [21] - Quote Eurydice Itzhak wrote: Sure must be nice to have a gallente tank and all your cooldowns ready. If a forge gunner catches you after or while you are engaged with someone else, their teamwork beats your solo tank. How can you complain about that?
The Attorney General ZionTCD 424	Posted - 2013.07.16 05:50:00 - [22] - Quote Pikachu Power wrote: Wow...you must be kidding. I'd do the math, but we all know it is impossible. From what I recall, you just hide behind buildings when people shoot at you. I've seen you tank; you're not great. You're not even top 20. Not even top 30 if I had to make a list. Why? Because no real tanker relies on HP to succeed. And all you do is get orbitaled for sitting on hills in the open right? You say I am bad, yet a couple of days ago you put me on your A list of tankers, with the loving quote that that you hate me but my tactics are not bad. But today, now that you got shown to be afraid of a 1 v 1, you are going to say I'm bad. Guess what I am awful. Horrible even. Still better than you though. As for the forge gun, it did happen, it can happen. You guys who complain about AV being so strong are just doing it wrong. You can take a whole magazine from a Gastuns forge. on a 180 nano plate with a heavy efficient rep and 2 x carapace. Learn to fit before you go around saying that AV is OP. The fact that you don't know the limits of the tanks in this game and claim to be anything is laughable.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 424	Posted - 2013.07.16 05:54:00 - [23] - Quote Alpha 443-6732 wrote: If I was one of Charlottes alts, why would I be in a competitive PC corp? Obviously, if anyone has a different point of view than you, they must be lying, or faking, or an alt, since your "no true scotsman" arguements are absolutely flawless... Wow, you have no sense of humour. Must have just got blown up by a militia swarm.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 434	Posted - 2013.07.16 15:43:00 - [24] - Quote daishi mk03 wrote: Eurydice Itzhak wrote: Get out of that npc corp man. No one uses breach. It's all about assault and yes they will 3 or 4 shot me at proto level if they start in an advantageous position. The breach version has the highest damage / shot and it won't three shot a 'properly fitted' madrugar. How will the assault forge gun do it. Please, tell me. Actually, the breach for all of its hitting power is kind of garbage. The charge time makes it rather ineffective against tanks, but makes it perfect for dropships. The assault hits hard, but most importantly cycles fast enough to put out a fatal amount of damage if you can get the tanker off rep cycle. Ishukone Assault forge puts out close to 9k damage per mag with prof 5 and two damage mods, but it does it in about 8 seconds, versus around 18(?) seconds for the breach forge to dump its mag.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 434	Posted - 2013.07.16 15:49:00 - [25] - Quote Stinker Butt wrote: So far you're the only tanker I really believe when I read this thread. I don't know if I've ever faced you, but I've unloaded all of my proto AV swarms, and packed lai dai's into tanks that have withstood it only to mow me down. I hate to think of what it would be like if tanks were buffed to any significant amount. Luckily most tanks aren't fitted well or people just aren't good at tanking - So a well equipped AVer has a chance. I don't know about getting a all your swarms and Lai Dai grenades and not getting a kill. I would suspect at least one if not two of the grenades missed. When facing armor tanks, proto swarms with 2 damage mods can absolutely devastate them. Depending on reps and hardeners you can take up to 6 hits MAYBE. And that assumes that nothing else hits you, which normally never happens. Best case scenario for a swarmer as an armor tank is that you can get away in time without magically following swarms finding you in cover and popping your ass. But make no mistake, an armor tank that doesn't start going for cover as soon as they see the first volley of six pop out will more than likely die. IF they see them. IF they are not coming from someone on top of the MCC, or up above where the angles and cover don't matter, etc.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 434	Posted - 2013.07.16 15:54:00 - [26] - Quote Eurydice Itzhak wrote: Must be nice to be gallente. I don't know how this turned from "tanks can all survive proto av, np." To "one specialization of tanks can survive this particular av with all its cooldowns up so its Kk." Wyrkomi and packed Lai dai wreck armor. Must be nice to not have to go into full retreat every time someone pops off a swarm at you. Seriously, we could have a great discussion about how to make shield tanks more relevant, but any attempt to have a rational discussion in this thread is met with calls of me being pro-infantry, or crying to nerf tanks. There seems to be this fraternity of tankers that are colluding to try and manipulate CCP into buffing their stuff. The fact is that a well built Madrugar can withstand a whole magazine of Officer Forge. A shield tank probably can't. Lets do something about THAT, instead of pointing fingers. Lets work together to make shield tanks better. I don't drive them, but I don't want you guys to be irrelevant any more than you do.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 434	Posted - 2013.07.16 16:30:00 - [27] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: Dude I used to solo horribly driven sagis and suyrias last build with the dcma breech . Fixed that for you. Seriously, if any tank driver is going to let you hit them in the ass 4 times then they deserve to die. Doubly so if they allow you to immobilize yourself for 4.5 seconds between each shot. Bad tactics will erase any advantage a good vehicle gives you.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 434	Posted - 2013.07.16 19:16:00 - [28] - Quote If a madrugar can face off with a Gastuns and drive off after taking more than 10k damage, calling it easy is a stretch. It is also far from certain that you get popped by a single AV user.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 434	Posted - 2013.07.16 20:37:00 - [29] - Quote I love running over infantry. It still takes too long. There is no reason the stupid lav can kill so quickly but my tank has to go thrpugh your shields. Better than it was but still not quite there.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 434	Posted - 2013.07.17 13:26:00 - [30] - Quote Killar-12 wrote: The Attorney General wrote: Killar-12 wrote: Why didn't they buff AV instead of nerfing tanks? just make vehicles like they were in Chromo (but no invincible soma!) (this means fixing PG! so we can use our heavy shield reppers and extenders or 180 mm plates and heavy reppers with out 3 complex PG modules) Advanced tanks would be nice as well. When you get your skills up you can fit a Heavy Efficient repper, a 180 mm Nano plate, and a proto rail with only 1 PG extender. Why does infantry get 5% per level then? Infantry skills do not have to be equal with vehicle skills. Don't make yourself angry by looking at the skill tree for infantry and getting all misty eyed for what you could put together.

The Attorney General ZionTCD 434	Posted - 2013.07.17 14:13:00 - [31] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: So you are happy with bias towards infantry? Vehicle skills and infantry skills do not have to confer the same bonuses. This bias you speak of Is not actually a bias, just a byproduct of the infantry team being further along the dev cycle than vehicles currently. Which, if i were in charge, would make sense, as there are a lot more infantry players than vehicle users, so getting certain aspects of the game right for them is important. I am going to try and play nice on the forums today, so if you want to be productive, we can get some good discussion going on. If you want to cry I can go back to trolling.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 434	Posted - 2013.07.17 14:21:00 - [32] - Quote Stinker Butt wrote: Flying a dropship to unreachable places and then shooting down with sniper rifles, forges, swarms, or tanks while youre pretty much unstoppable is not the way this game is meant to be played, imo. The solution isnt to buff the tanks. Im sure ccp can find better ways to fix the problem. Couple of points here: 1) Getting AV up high is a tactical imperative. Should be done by any team in pretty much any match. Being able to respond to this is another tactical consideration that any good team will be ready for. 2) unreachable is subjective, because as I have made clear, there are very few places I have seen that cannot be hit back at with a rail gun. It may be difficult, but it isn't that you can't shoot back. More like they have a massive advantage especially using swarms because of how the tracking works and inhibits a tank from finding decent cover. 3) Advanced and proto tanks are coming, and that is a good thing, the question is how strong will they be, how strong SHOULD they be, and what steps need to be taken to establish a healthy balance between AV and Vehicle users. 4) Shield tanks need some love, Armor tanks are not as bad as some people make them out to be. Would I like an extra 60 PG and 15 CPU on my Madrugar? Of course, but it doesn't break my builds if I don't have it. 5) We all know that pilot suits are coming, lets all put our heads together and really try to make sure they don't come out broken, or they don't come out OP and get the nerf hammer into being useless.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 434	Posted - 2013.07.17 14:30:00 - [33] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: So taking 5% PG per level is fair? So taking 5% shield per level is fair? So taking 5% armor per level is fair? These skills were in and working fine, no one complained and vehicle specailsts used them and maxed them out Now they just added the missing HP from these skills to all vehicles so now infantry basically got a free buff to a free vehicle which means it lives longer and is harder to kill These skills were in pretty much from the start, this has nothing to do with devs behind ahead of another dev team So why is fair to do this to vehicle users? Yes you lost your PG. If you want to make a thread about why that made everything wrong in the game, please do so. You didn't lose the 5% shield and armor per level. Those percentages were added to the vehicle stats, and we all got an ADDITIONAL 10% resist to our shields and armor. That is called a buff, and if you are complaining about that you are drunk maybe? Stop acting like you are being persecuted. It is not helpful, and kind of sad.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 434	Posted - 2013.07.17 14:52:00 - [34] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=925183#post925183 i already did We as vehicle specalists lost skills which were for vehicles thus true vehicle specalists lost out, sure we got 10% resists which tbh should have been new skills to add to the vehicle tree, to expand the tree with new skills So you want 25% more PG plus the HP bump, plus 10% resists? Yeah, that is asking for a lot. Too much IMO. But at least we have a clearer picture of where you stand.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 434	Posted - 2013.07.17 15:08:00 - [35] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: We had the 25% PG before - if we get it back nothing changes apart from fits and maybe better survival rates against advanced/proto AV which isnt a bad thing espc for PC matches since i dont have to run everytime it hits me The 10% resists would be new skills so would require SP to hit lvl 5 - you wouldnt get them at lvl5 automatically The old 5% shield and armor per level go back to where they used to be and if its already at lvl5 or whatever you get the new skills at that level without having to put SP to get it to the existing level As a consequence the removal of the HP buff to all vehicles means that milita vehicles are weaker so murder taxis with free LAVs wont be as good and vehicle specalists generally use LLAVs anyways The only difference between all the changes is that we get 2 new skills that can offer 10% resists for shield/armor and tbh its barely gamebreaking at all because the other skills are what we had before and no one complained about vehicles then You give me 25% more PG, and I will make a Madrugar that will take 2 or 3 Proto AV to tackle. I can already shrug off a single proto AV user. What happens when we get proto vehicles? Why is it that no one seems to think that maybe the STD tanks got stepped down to make room for proto tanks that won't be OP? Is that such a strange idea? I do not like that they made a balancing pass before introducing new stuff, but I can at least see that being the case. There seems to be a contingent here that wants to have big performance out of STD tanks and still want a big step up in performance to proto. That leads to OP tanks and complaining infantry. As it is right now, I can face off with a proto AV without too much fear, but as soon as there is more than one of them I am in deep trouble. This to me is balanced. They are two people, I am one. How this balance will change with the introduction of future vehicles remains to be seen.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 434	Posted - 2013.07.17 15:39:00 - [36] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: 2 or 3 lol worthy, i take it fit would be heavy rep, 180 best plate and 3 resists and highs maybe DC2, remember tho with 10% armor resist the mods start with a stacking penalty so the DCU add overall maybe 2/3% and the 3rd active resist mod is about 8% roughly - it maybe able to handle one but 2 would push it and 3 overkill most likely espc with swarms with the usual 2 damage mods maybe more If they wanted to nerf the standard tanks for proto tanks then you reduce the PG off of the tank instead of nerfing the skill, thats easier instead of taking off the skill completely and replacing it with a useless bonus If you use a DCU you are doing it wrong. It completely nullifies your second carapace hardener. Waste of a slot that could be better filled with something else. I want to explain a concept to you, and hopefully this will help you to see things from a different perspective. When you have skills that increase certain attributes you invariably create stronger vehicles based on SP levels. This results in people with more SP in a role having higher success rates versus those with lower SP. In the case of infantry, this can be worked around through skill, such that a MLT dropsuit always has some chance, however small of beating a proto. In vehicles it is not the same. If I have 25% more PG than a 2 million SP tanker, there is almost nothing they can do to me to compensate for that other than run like hell and recall their tank to avoid losing it. Not very fun at all. Not easy to learn with, and forcing a tanker to go to infantry because someone with more SP showed up is not in any way balanced. As it is right now, what divides the gear between tankers is how much you can fit into the hull based off of your SP. So even though SP plays a role, it is not as dramatic as if your tank can fit a whole different league of tank, gank or both. Not all things are about the infantry vs vehicles argument, sometimes it is about new tankers versus long term guys. The fact that I can handle one proto AV in my STD tank is balanced. Lets all wait patiently for our next tier of vehicles, while we also work on getting the enforcers turned into something useful.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 439	Posted - 2013.07.17 22:52:00 - [37] - Quote Void Echo wrote: @ The Attorney General after further reading your posts and all, I have the question of asking.... are you an alt of Iron Wolf Saber, or are you an alt of CCP Minchip? because all you want to do is ethnically make tanks worthless. I understand your stance on the matter because I skilled into infantry one time and I have to say, its still way to easy to kill tanks, and many many of the AV players will agree with me. its people like you that we are trying to fight so that we can achieve the balance that was meant to be for this game Go get some lessons from sota, your trolling is just as shabby as the way you demand buffs. Between you and charlotte there are more tears in here than there were at your place when the cancelled the L word.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 439	Posted - 2013.07.18 12:27:00 - [38] - Quote Void Echo wrote: the balance is broken and always will be if a standard av payer can solo a standard tank. because right now that's the way it is and its making this into another COD No, no, and..... no. If you are getting solo'd by std AV than the problem is with your fits or tactics, not the AV. If my Madrugar can take a whole magazine from a Gastuns forge, why can't you handle one std AV user? I don't know what it is that you are actually after with these ridiculous posts, but it certainly isn't balance. For all the experience you talk about, you certainly haven't put any of it into practice if you are getting solo'd by std AV.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 446	Posted - 2013.07.18 21:10:00 - [39] - Quote Void Echo wrote: BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote: Casius Hakoke wrote: Void Echo wrote: on a side note: the turrets both small and large just got a price increase, I noticed because the 80GJ compressed Particle Cannon was increased from 400K to almost 1 million ISK by itself TODAY? That's insane! old news. happened months ago. when uprising came. not really dude, I never saw the price increased until now, the whole time when I went to the market the price for my cannon was always around 400K, it was never nearly 1 million Claims to be the source on tanking, doesn't know cannon costs. Lol.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 448	Posted - 2013.07.19 17:05:00 - [40] - Quote Void Echo wrote: then why even have this game at all? its not meant to be solely infantry or gun grunts running around, that's what other games have like cod and bf, if you don't like vehicles get out of dust 514, we are a valid play style and deserve as much respect as you demand from us. again if you don't like vehicles, then why the hell are you playing this game? its honestly sad to see that CCP only listens to whiners like you. and if you want facts for my statement, look throughout the history of dust 514 and the forums, youl see that CCP rarely ever listens to vehicle users. Responses like these are neither helpful, productive, or good for eliciting sympathy. They make you seem very childish. You consistently argue that if you don't get what you want, then the game is ruined for vehicle users. You consistently tell people who don't agree with you to go to CoD, or BF. Whereas there are many people here, both tankers and AV users who are capable of having a real discussion, you seem dead set against any form of debate that doesn't end with people agreeing with you. If CCP listens only to whiners, then why have you and Charlotte not been able to convince them to craft your rolling unkillable death machines for you? There is more than enough whining and crying in this thread to surely get the response you allege.

The Attorney General ZionTCD 448	Posted - 2013.07.19 18:19:00 - [41] - Quote BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote: all u are saying in this thread is how good your tank is and how av barley hurts u. For example u took 6 shots from a gastuns forge gun. -u know the damage is lower than a normal forge for higher rate of fire. Better for handling infantry. Taking 6 proto swarm hits. -this could be the due fact he has a lack of skills in the av weapon no damage mods and only has the gun compared to ur fully speced out tank max resist. Many tankers in this thread have made the point that all it takes is one proto AV to assure the destruction of any tank. That is not the case. There needs to be some perspective instead of a bunch of people simply complaining. You can build a tank that can resist proto AV, you can build a tank that can survive a brief onslaught long enough to get away. BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote: Not everyone has 8-12 mil sp in vehicles and no new player will want this to have a "decent" tank. I made this exact point, although for different reasons. At the same time, trying to balance tanking around some middle ground SP number is very difficult, and leads to all sorts of problems when you get to SP maxed out vehicles. BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote: Also saying u played in PCs vs other corps and saying u were the top scorer means nothing. After playing plenty of PCs i can tell u 1 AV fully speced into his class can kill a maxed out tank. His suit can cost less than a 100k isk to blow up a tank tht cost 2-3 mil isk. As i have proto forges and a gastuns forge i can tell u it has the ability to kill most tanks in a 1v1. and i don't even have prof 5 or complex damage mods. and i one shots milita tanks. I referred to PC play because the whiners needed some sort of validation of my experience, not because I think I am good, or that is has some bearing on the argument. I maintain that I am average at best. As for forges, I too have a character with FG's with prof 5 and proto AV grenades. I also had months of hunting tanks in Chromo before I started tanking. Yes, if someone has only 1 million SP into tanks they will not stand a chance against someone with a 10 million SP AV fit. How is this a surprise? When you get to 10 million SP AV vs. 10 million SP tank, things are not as cut and dried. One would first assume(and this is a HUGE assumption) that someone with that much SP into tanks would know when to retreat. They should also know how to exploit their advantages while minimizing their flaws. The other part of it is that if one were to look at it from a teamwork perspective, if you do not have infantry that is capable of helping you out in a PC, your tank is toast anyway. Most often, tanks getting popped in PC are taking fire from more than one source. Either a couple of AV grenades and a FG, or maybe a FG/Swarmer and a tank at the same time. Focused fire will win everytime, and I don't see how you can call that unbalanced. BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote: Balancing tanks over ur skills and not the avreage. ( assuming u are above avreage ) is not the way to balance AV v Tank. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote: Even noobs with no skill could kill u throwing av nades at u and locking on to u with proto swarms across the map and jumping around while u try hitting him. A forge has o aim at u but even then it's hard to find them assuming they hide. Even then tanks die realitivly fast for their cost. There r some points i don't agree with in the petiton but something has to be done and doing nothing but bragging about yourself does no good. see u on the battlefield. o/ If you find yourself within throwing distance of an infantry, without any back up, and stay there, enjoy the respawn screen, because you messed up. If you cannot recognize that swarms are a very real threat to an armor tank, and take proper action, which includes not pushing too far forward, not straying too far from cover, and not letting yourself get into outnumbered situations, then enjoy the respawn screen. You messed up. If there is a forge gunner up high, and you don't have the good sense to not go rolling out into their field of fire, enjoy the respawn screen, you messed up. I have made numerous suggestions about how to balance shield v armor tanking, as well as suggestions regarding AV nades, enforcers, and more. Yet all these posts get overlooked because I find the amount of whining to be intolerable. So because I do not join in the chorus of saying we need buffs, anything else I do add to the discussion is moot? Bottom line is that any tank that gets called in becomes a priority target for the enemy team. until there is some form of matchmaking, new guys are going to get decimated by experienced AV players. If they buff tanks instead of fixing matchmaking, then when you get to SP max scenarios, the tanks become OP. At the same time, anyone who expects to one day get into a proto tank and then go and square off against a squad that is packing Lai Dai grenades, Ishukone Assault Forges and some decent swarms without getting popped mercilessly is dreaming. Just because our tanks cost us an arm and a leg does not mean that we should be able to roll up into a confined space with a blaster tank and have a slug fest vs enemy AV.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 448	Posted - 2013.07.19 19:17:00 - [42] - Quote 1. Should a proto AV be able to take down a proto tank when we get them? Yes. This ignores tactics, or even the tanker trying to save himself. If, when we get proto tanks, one wants to just sit out in a field for a few minutes, then one guy should be able to destroy it. 2. I do not recall saying that I could take 6 proto swarms. I don't think any tank right now can. If I did say so, please point me to the post and I will change it. I recall saying that as soon as I see someone fire a six rocket swarm(proto) I immediately start retreating. 3. Yes, in a PC match tanks are expendable. Sometimes the FC needs you to drive right up on to an enemy position. This will normally cost you the tank. That is why corps should be keeping their tankers supplied. An organized group of 3 or 4 AV, or a team of one tank and an AV guy will destroy a tank very very fast. 4. I do not want anything balanced off of just my perspective. But having my perspective called pro-infantry, or to have it be derided as invalid due to my disagreement with the common themes is poor form. The larger balance discussion requires much more input than just mine or yours. I am not a low SP tanker, so trying to get an idea of what low SP tankers need is beyond me. However, what I think would go a long way is to promote the idea that proper matchmaking should hopefully be able to keep low SP tankers away from high SP AV. 5. I provided the link because we DO need to balance for skill. Tanks should not be balanced so that bad drivers can do well. They need to be balanced so that really good drivers like you have to play really smart to dominate. Bad drivers should ALWAYS get ripped apart. Just like stupid infantry gets killed right away. If someone runs at my tank with full health and tried to throw an AV nade at me, or hit me with a Mass Driver, they die because they were stupid, not because my tank is OP. Just as if someone drives their tank right into the middle of a group of infantry and gets AV naded, it is not AV nades that are OP, it is the driver who is stupid. I look forward to keeping this discussion going, hopefully we can get some more information out there for the Devs to read.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 449	Posted - 2013.07.19 20:53:00 - [43] - Quote Reserved.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 449	Posted - 2013.07.19 21:13:00 - [44] - Quote Reserved.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 449	Posted - 2013.07.19 22:19:00 - [45] - Quote BobThe 844-1 CakeMan wrote: 1. proto av should be able to kill a proto tank. i agree to an extent. If the tank driver mess up then yes. If he is trying his best to stay alive but can't help but dying then yes. But proto av should not be a able to do so easily and ....... snip 1. Agree to proto AV costing more, Forge Guns in particular should be much more expensive, as their are more versatile than anything else. Used in groups, they can either drive off or kill the tank, so they don't really have much risk. 2. Edited the post to reflect. 3. Tanks in PC almost need a different thread. The gulf in class between squad AV and squad HAV is too much for competitive gaming. Remote repair and Shield Transportation need a lot of help before we can properly engage in spider tanking. 5.Adding more depth to the encounter would be nice, but I think that right now, we need to help the Devs figure out the basics, long before we go for the frills.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 449	Posted - 2013.07.19 23:11:00 - [46] - Quote Void Echo wrote: The Attorney General wrote: Reserved. im just going to ignore your posts because all you seem to do is ignore the real topic of the thread and go directly for personal insults which I turn makes you look weak as if you don't have a base for an argument or debate yourself Wut?
The Attorney General ZionTCD 450	Posted - 2013.07.20 13:52:00 - [47] - Quote Void Echo wrote: 1- theres your problem, we are wanting it to require a MIMIMUM of 2 av players to take down a tank, that way we don't feel like we are being cheated like we are now and you guys still get your kill fast 2- you forgot about the major isk cost difference. there is no balance, and the way your talking makes it seem like there is complete balance the way it is now, there is no way this is balanced. also many people agree on the standard vs standard right now because we have both classes in standard tier right now. one guy should not equal a tank, if that's the case then why the **** should we be in tanks, we should just be heavies going on foot a destroying everything with an HMG or forge gun if one dropsuit alone is able to match a fully proto tank by himself, theres no reason for the tank to exist if there is a cheaper more moveable smaller version of them in the infantry classes 1. Have to disagree. As stated previously, if a tanker wants to sit around in the open for long enough, one AV user should be able to destroy them. Also, please don't use the plural in your arguments. You are not the voice of all tankers. 2. I have said this many times before, but I guess it needs to be expanded upon. You cannot balance with ISK. Just becuase our tanks cost more than an AV fit does not mean that they are more powerful. It just means that they take more materials to manufacture(in the general sense, not in the New Eden specific, as I am well aware that we are currently not manufacturing anything). The cost of an item is not a measure of how powerful it is, in any way. Your idea that tanks are worthless if they can be taken out by a single AV user I cannot agree with. A tank has more range than a heavy, more ammo, greater flexibility, is more mobile, durable, can operate without a logi, etc. Just becuase an infantry man can destroy it, doesn't make it worthless.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 450	Posted - 2013.07.20 14:05:00 - [48] - Quote Void Echo wrote: why should a solo dropsuit the size of a human match me in a tank when I spent over 2x the SP to get into my tank as he did to get into his dropsuit? Did you really spend 2x the SP though? In order for a heavy to equip a proto assault forge, proto AV grenades, 2x complex damage mods, and a good SMG requires more SP than a fully fit STD tank. So unless you want to have absolutely massive amounts of SP needed for proto tanks, this argument doesn't really hold up. Void Echo wrote: this game is based on ISK and SP like it or not, its not based on personal skill unfortunately. SP is a factor, to an extent, but ISK is not, except for new people. Having more SP is not an automatic win, nor is using more expensive items. Void Echo wrote: like in EVE Online where you CANNOT SOLO A TITAN WITH A FIGHTER, you need multiple starships to take down a single titan, this is NOT a regular fps game. A group of 10 rookie ships can drop a battleship costing 1000x as much if the battleship pilot is bad. It may not be a Titan, and it may not be solo, but unlike Eve, we are not playing with huge numbers. In a 16 v 16 battle, saying that it would take a quarter of the enemy team dedicated to AV to drop a tank is not balanced. Void Echo wrote: 2 yes I do feel that im entitled to an easier way of victory because I chose to put almost everything I own into tanks which makes me have the best ones on the market which leads me to be feared, but that's besides the point. Hell no. I have to strongly resist the urge to troll the crap out of you for saying this. The idea that just because you specced tanks there should not be a counter easily at hand is absurd. Armor is the hard counter for infantry, AV is the hard counter for Armor. We could have a discussion on if tanks need to be more lethal to compensate for the lethality of AV, but in no way shape or form is just speccing into a tank and dropping a couple of million ISK an assured victory.
The Attorney General ZionTCD 568	Posted - 2013.07.24 06:20:00 - [49] - Quote 1.5 is the new 1.4. Spread the new gospel of October for parity. But seriously I'll be playing something on PS4 before its really fixed.

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