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[Request] Rethinking the Shotgun

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Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy 283	Posted - 2013.07.10 14:55:00 - [1] - Quote Dearest Devs, I'm submitting this request in hopes that you may reconsider, be it long-term or short-term, how this wonderfully entertaining weapon and playstyle fit into your wonderfully entertaining game. Short Version How to Fix the Shotgun (in one easy step): Increase spread and pellet count. Doing so will remedy persistent hit detection issues. The corresponding damage boost will return the Shotgun to its rightful role as dominant in CQC. Reasoning: A Shotgun dominating in close quarters should be expected. This is neither a new FPS concept nor is it an unreasonable one. The in-game description includes the phrases "tremendous stopping power" and "lethal over short distances". These qualities fit one's expectation of a Shotgun, but they have not been realized in Uprising 1.0, 1.1, or 1.2. Long Version History: Since the dawn of the FPS, the Shotgun has consistently dominated combat in close quarters and confined spaces. This consistency in design is not design flaw, in my humble opinion, it is design depth. A dedicated Shotgunner learns to run routes by which to flank or corner his opposition, and his opposition learns to be on the lookout when entering areas where a Shotgunner may have advantage. Some maps favor the Shotgun, while others emphasize its limitations. A good Shotgunner adapts; over time he learns how to flank, when to advance, when to retreat, and when to wait. Personal Experience: As a brief introduction, I've been running about with a boomstick for a long, long time. Prior to Dust, I was ranked among the Top 50 Shotgunners in Modern Warfare. Then came Black Ops II. The developers maintained that a Shotgun should dominate in close quarters, but after six months they failed to remedy issues with hit detection. I quit the CoD franchise and have been playing Dust ever since, beginning with a rough but rewarding start in Chromosome. Adapting to Dust: As a newbie and aspiring Shotgunner, I was immediately drawn in by the depth of character development options in Dust. I was addicted from the start, in spite of being pubstomped over and over again. Climbing the learning curve was both challenging and rewarding, and my goal of getting good enough to kill ChicagoCubs always seemed to be right around the corner. Early on I met Calamity Jane and Annie Oakley. The experienced guys in my squad basically said "Oh crap! Its Calamity Jane and Annie Oakley!" Needless to say, I saw first hand how devastating a Shotgunner could become with time and experience. This encounter furthered my addiction to Dust. Introduction to the Forums: I spent a good 'bit of time in the Forums looking for tips on how to improve my merc. I saw much crying about Shotguns being EZ mode and OP, but often these cries were often countered with "if you let a shotgunner within five meters, you deserve to be killed". As a Scout Shotgunner, at no point did I feel as though I was playing EZ mode. When I died -- which was often -- it was because I had made a mistake in planning or execution. Getting better meant learning the mechanics and playing smart. I will concede that the range potential of Chromosome Shotguns was over-the-top. I will not concede, however, that lethality a Shotgun blast to the back or face at five meters is either EZ or OP. A Shotgun dominating in close quarters should be expected. This is neither a new FPS concept nor is it an unreasonable one. A Financial Aside: Had I come to Dust during the Uprising build, I would've returned to CoD within one week. My purchase of two Merc Packs and later an Elite Pack (totaling $140.00 USD) are credited to my gameplay experience as a Shotgunner in Chromosome. Adapting to Uprising: Mighty Shotgun, you leave me utterly defenseless at range, but you reward me when I play smart and flank my opponent. Until Uprising. Whether intentionally or not, the Shotgun has suffered a substantial blow to efficacy in its intended role. The in-game description includes the phrases "tremendous stopping power" and "lethal over short distances". These qualities fit one's expectation of a Shotgun, but they are no longer realized in combat. In Uprising 1.0, I suspected that the Shotgun's degraded performance was an unintentional consequence of mechanical changes. Now that we're well in to 1.2, I'm becoming increasingly concerned. How to Fix the Shotgun (in one easy step): Increase spread and pellet count. Doing so will remedy persistent hit detection issues and the corresponding damage boost will return the Shotgun to its rightful role as dominant in CQC. Thank you for your consideration, Shotty GoBang
Sinboto Simmons Sver true blood Public Disorder. 599	Posted - 2013.07.10 15:29:00 - [2] - Quote I'll support you bud fixing the shotty is a must and will have the side effect of getting more of our brothers on the field which is always a plus. I've not used shotty scout regularly myself since crome the changes were killing me and I could no longer play the class effectively but I may pick her up again. Edit:also lol on the twins I now know how to counter all shottys thanks to um but they beat my cpu deprived behind to get me to that state
Muud Kipz Elevated Technologies 16	Posted - 2013.07.10 15:34:00 - [3] - Quote +1 for a well written, well reasoned post with a reasonable fix for a legitimate issue. What's next, flying pigs?
Lucifalic Baked n Loaded 1	Posted - 2013.07.10 15:40:00 - [4] - Quote +1. Lov shotguns in games and in real life. I can live with the fact most games still don't realize a shotguns true potential ( have dropped dear at 80 meters with a slug, ssg lethal to armor clad soldiers at 50 meters proven by the military and police) but in uprising, especially 1.2 it's just terrible. Please fix the shotty. It feels like a daisy bb gun not a mighty short range destroyer. Side note there have been confirmed 1 shot elephant kills from 20 m with 12 g slugs
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 2410	Posted - 2013.07.10 16:39:00 - [5] - Quote Lucifalic wrote: +1. Lov shotguns in games and in real life. I can live with the fact most games still don't realize a shotguns true potential ( have dropped dear at 80 meters with a slug, ssg lethal to armor clad soldiers at 50 meters proven by the military and police) but in uprising, especially 1.2 it's just terrible. Please fix the shotty. It feels like a daisy bb gun not a mighty short range destroyer. Side note there have been confirmed 1 shot elephant kills from 20 m with 12 g slugs Already Liked this, and I'll say that I'd love to see this go through. Only thing I'd like more than that would be the introduction of a Minmatar shotgun with the range of a REAL shotgun in exchange for less stopping power and more falloff over distance.
pseudosnipre DUST University Ivy League 62	Posted - 2013.07.10 18:18:00 - [6] - Quote Increase spread and significantly buff pellet damage done at distance. Spread over range already limits sg effectiveness, reducing pellet damage at range DOUBLY reduces midrange effectiveness, something no other weapon suffers from. Ideas: Give breach 4 shots and nerf by increased spread, no range buff. Give non-breach reduced drop-off penalty, no change to spread or damage. That way i can have a true cqc breach playstyle OR a relaxed run-n-shotgun playstyle.
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organization 29	Posted - 2013.07.10 18:22:00 - [7] - Quote shotguns fine where its at its basicly an instant kill on everything other than a heavy them messing me is what allows me to live...
Seymor Krelborn DUST University Ivy League 112	Posted - 2013.07.10 18:46:00 - [8] - Quote as a shotty myself I say big ups to this post... the shotgun is so broken...
pseudosnipre DUST University Ivy League 63	Posted - 2013.07.10 18:50:00 - [9] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: shotguns fine where its at its basicly an instant kill on everything other than a heavy them messing me is what allows me to live... Shotgun is to heavy as paper is to rock...just be glad that cqc framerate and controls remain borked, fatboy.
Seymor Krelborn DUST University Ivy League 112	Posted - 2013.07.10 18:53:00 - [10] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: shotguns fine where its at its basicly an instant kill on everything other than a heavy them messing me is what allows me to live... you obviously have never used one my good sir. I cant tell you how many times I have had a merc dead to rights with that gigantic reticle centered on my opponent in CQC and I get minimal damage due to the atrocious hit detection. I must say as fun as running the shotty is, its the worst rendition of one in any FPS I have ever played...

CLONE117 Planetary Response Organization 29	Posted - 2013.07.10 18:57:00 - [11] - Quote i have used shotguns.. the mlt variant as i dont plan on unlock the std version.... its just the way u have to aim u have to have that big circler red before u hit something...
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy 294	Posted - 2013.07.10 20:14:00 - [12] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: shotguns fine where its at ... Hi Clone117 (Heavy), Thank you for weighing in on this topic. I would ask of you and your Heavy companions one simple question: How many point-blank Shotgun blasts to the back should a Sentinel be able to withstand? I very much look forward to your feedback. Shotty GoBang
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organization 31	Posted - 2013.07.10 20:21:00 - [13] - Quote well i have a cheap mlt heavy suit and its right now i can only withand about 2 shots the 3rd would kill.. 506 shields and 380 armor on that suit. and thats without any modules except for the armor repper i put on it. i mostly run my free assault medic fitting so i only bring the hmg out in certain areas..
Keeriam Miray Internal Error. League of Infamy 17	Posted - 2013.07.10 20:24:00 - [14] - Quote Shotty.... it's a PLASMA weapon, not projectile... wtf "pellets" doing in PLASMA weapon, tell us CCP Wolfman https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=832146#post832146
Keeriam Miray Internal Error. League of Infamy 17	Posted - 2013.07.10 20:29:00 - [15] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: u have to have that big circler red before u hit something... comfirming that, you need shoot with prediction to do full dmg, killed alot heavies with 3 shots of militia shotgun, but it's not an excuse for that kind of weapon CCP gime my galletian mighty plasma weapons
Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy 295	Posted - 2013.07.10 20:31:00 - [16] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: well i have a cheap mlt heavy suit and its right now i can only withand about 2 shots the 3rd would kill. Thank your for your response, Clone117. So we're clear, it is your opinion that three (3) Shotgun blasts, in the back at point-blank range, should be required to drop a militia Heavy, correct? May I interpolate this to mean five (5) for a Proto Heavy? Thanks Again, Shotty GoBang
Jarlaxle Xorlarrin SyNergy Gaming EoN. 98	Posted - 2013.07.10 20:31:00 - [17] - Quote A R870 can deal damage at 10m+ with buckshot, but a shotgun several millennia in the future can only make it 4m before it starts to lose stopping power. Astonishing, isn't it?
major faux-pas Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 48	Posted - 2013.07.10 20:35:00 - [18] - Quote +1 to general +1 to cone and spread I persist through frustration because I (stubbornly) do not want to go for flavour of the month weapons. The flanking shotty is simply my playstyle. Towards the limit of optimal range the spread is pitiful - I'd like to see the damage to drop off mainly due to increasing spread (i.e. number of 'hits'), not loss of pellet speed over only 15M or so. Please don't attack myself or the OP on range - I have no problem with the optimal and effective ranges as they are, it is just a case of making it's behaviour over that range correct.
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organization 31	Posted - 2013.07.10 20:36:00 - [19] - Quote 3 or 4 on a proto would be good enough for me. although on the mlt heavy 2 shots and a single ar shot would kill that suit..
Arx Ardashir Imperium Aeternum 91	Posted - 2013.07.10 21:08:00 - [20] - Quote Keeriam Miray wrote: Shotty.... it's a PLASMA weapon, not projectile... wtf "pellets" doing in PLASMA weapon, tell us CCP Wolfman https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=832146#post832146 They are plasma pellets, aka balls of superheated gas. +1 to OP. Your story has touched my heart. CCP, save this man.

Shotty GoBang Pro Hic Immortalis League of Infamy 297	Posted - 2013.07.10 21:12:00 - [21] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: 3 or 4 on a proto would be good enough for me. Thanks again for your input, Clone117. I suppose that this is a reasonable range for a frontal assault against a Proto Heavy; I would agree with you without reservation, if that Heavy's Shields and Armor were forward-facing. In my humble opinion, one (1) point-blank shotgun blast to the back should be sufficient to neutralize any infantry, regardless of class or meta level. Fortunately for non-shotgunners, Dust is a squad-based FPS so no one should ever be able to sneak up directly behind you. Shotty GoBang
CLONE117 Planetary Response Organization 31	Posted - 2013.07.10 21:17:00 - [22] - Quote well u can easily sneak up behind snipers. but thats a completely diffrent story...
Scottie MaCallan Krusual Covert Operators Minmatar Republic 26	Posted - 2013.07.10 21:38:00 - [23] - Quote potential addendum: why does the shotgun skill lower spread? if I wanted lower spread I'd use the breach variant. I honestly don't care about my spread that much, I'm usually close enough that it doesn't matter. could changing the bonus to something more playstyle neutral help fix this problem?
Keeriam Miray Internal Error. League of Infamy 17	Posted - 2013.07.10 21:59:00 - [24] - Quote Arx Ardashir wrote: Keeriam Miray wrote: Shotty.... it's a PLASMA weapon, not projectile... wtf "pellets" doing in PLASMA weapon, tell us CCP Wolfman https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=832146#post832146 They are plasma pellets, aka balls of superheated gas. +1 to OP. Your story has touched my heart. CCP, save this man. This is short range weapon that can simply shoot superheated cloud.... We already have AR that shoots superheated balls , balls can trawell further, and we have USELESS plasma cannon that shoots BIG plasma ball (and that BIG superheated ball of GAS somehow extremely affected by gravity ). Sooo making it works like AoE weapon is more logical = deadly cqc AoE plasma shotgun. There supuose to be more race based shotguns, like: caldary = kinetic slug shotgun minmatar = nuclear pellets shotgun amarr = well... some AoE tesla thingy or burst\kaleidoscope laser shotgun
nukel head Knights of No Republic 50	Posted - 2013.07.10 22:23:00 - [25] - Quote Jarlaxle Xorlarrin wrote: A R870 can deal damage at 10m+ with buckshot, but a shotgun several millennia in the future can only make it 4m before it starts to lose stopping power. Astonishing, isn't it? True, but that is a real shotgun in the real world. Also buckshot. All the weapons in Dust have short range compared to real world equivalents. Plasma would react much differently than metal pellets. I would guess devastating damage up close, but spread and dispersion would quickly taper off the damage from there. Other than that I can't comment on shotguns, haven't used them since the launch of Uprising.
Gaelon Thrace DUST University Ivy League 39	Posted - 2013.07.11 12:10:00 - [26] - Quote Bump Fix the gorram shotgun!
Imp Smash Seraphim Auxiliaries CRONOS. 167	Posted - 2013.07.11 12:30:00 - [27] - Quote Seems to me balancing a weapon to compensate for bad core mechanics is a design fail. How about they focus on and fix netcode/hit detection? Then see how the shortie performs.
Arx Ardashir Imperium Aeternum 107	Posted - 2013.07.11 14:08:00 - [28] - Quote Keeriam Miray wrote: minmatar = nuclear pellets shotgun lol. Hit or miss, everyone's going to die.
Matticus Monk Ordus Trismegistus 230	Posted - 2013.07.11 14:55:00 - [29] - Quote +1 Please fix the shotgun. It's somewhat fun using an AR as a scout... but oh do I miss the shotgun. It still gets an occasional kill but it takes a few rounds to even connect. I'd like to see hit detection fixed. It was mentioned that the next few builds would focus on mechanics.... so hopefully some of these issues will resolve with 1.3 or 1.4. I hope.
DusterBuster DUST University Ivy League 214	Posted - 2013.07.11 14:58:00 - [30] - Quote I have been running a shotgun for awhile myself. I usually only use militia/bpo variations due to their poor reliability. I have also ran a standard Assault during chromosome, and was killed many times by shot gunners. However, almost every single time was due to my own stupidity (besides a couple where I was killed by a shotgun that could out range my AR). I really like your idea of being able to oneshot anything from behind, while it would take more from the front. This really promotes tactical gameplay, both on the side of the shotgunner and the prey. I have recently returned to Dust after a couple weeks of playing other games, and I must say that I haven't noticed any hit detection issues. Not because they are not there, but rather because the aiming in dust is so far from where it should be that I can't hit anything. I have often been killed at point blank by an AR, due simply to the fact that they can spray from the hip and hit me, while I cant hit anything w/ a semi-auto shotgun. Anyway, nicely typed out post, +1. Give us back our shotguns CCP!

Revelations 514 Red Star. EoN. 76	Posted - 2013.07.11 17:50:00 - [31] - Quote +1 bump from Rev, your friendly neighborhood SG Scout
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 722	Posted - 2013.07.11 18:27:00 - [32] - Quote Don't forget to increase the hip fire spread at ranges above 5M currently it is pretty good at 10 meters and sometimes higher, and after 7M that isn't CQC.
major faux-pas Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 51	Posted - 2013.07.11 19:52:00 - [33] - Quote Dont think the plasma argument should be used against the shotgun... I thought hybrid was some kind of mixture of plasma and solids? Either way should work better than solid metal. Back to the manual i spose...


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