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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Top Men.
1027
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Posted - 2013.07.10 06:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
These ideas are not mine. I am consolidating them and presenting them for fair view and comment.
the state of armor tanking: we've heard it all before, everyone is well aware of what's going on here.
So on to proposed solutions:
Suggestion from Cat Merc is predicated on everyone hating the current meta of armor tanking modules having a big buffer but also a big speed penalty.
there's a balance point here, but if you're going to be a slow pig you need to be able to weather heavy fire. if you aren't going to be able to soak up heavy fire you need to not be a slow pig.
the first step is to change the armor plates:
Standard: 130 HP, 5% movement penalty
Advanced: 174 HP, 7.5% movement penalty
Prototype: 230 HP, 10% movement penalty
the reason for this: increasing the buffer to be able to take sustained heavy fire mitigates the extreme penalty involved in losing most of your mobility and being unable to dodge, as well as compensating for the EXTREME damage bonus explosive weapons have on you. it creates an advantage of sustained HP while eliminating the ability to chase down skirmishers.
TL; DR for Cat Merc: increase the buffer, keep the speed penalty and make it scale better.
Suggestion from CPM Hans addresses the disparity between shield and armor regen.
the idea is to have the modules continue performing the way they do now while under fire.
So militia/standard do 2 HP/sec, advanced to 3 HP/sec and proto does 5 HP/sec while you are taking damage.
each second you are NOT being shot, the modules add +1 HP/sec to repair amounts up to a capped amount.
so a complex armor rep would do 6.5 HP/sec (because skills) then after the shooting stops hit 7.5, then 8.5, then 9.5 then 10.5 ad nauseum for each second the armor tanker is not under fire.
this would allow reps to remain distinct and give skirmishing attackers time to recover some and go back to hammering the armor guys before they fully recover. But leave them for too long and they crank up to full in a decent amount of time even with heavy plating.
these are ideas that have been tossed around on IRC. I'm dropping them here. Discuss.
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Oso Peresoso
RisingSuns
254
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Posted - 2013.07.10 07:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
those seem like... really really huge hp numbers. By just buffing the HP, it looks like you're really exaggerating the rock-paper-scissors system of counters instead of weakening it. I don't know if that's your goal, but I would prefer something that tones down the extreme weakness towards aoe explosive attacks without giving armor a huge buff vs everything else.
You're also proposing that armor healing have an acceleration of +1HP/sec/sec out of combat up to a limit. This is an interesting idea for sure, but I don't think its necessary to do something like that. I think simply increasing the base armor rep amounts to 3/5/7 or 3/4.5/6 would be fine really. Fixed Armor regen under fire isn't a problem, its a feature, and I'm not convinced that in-combat regen could be effectively abused, as stacking 3 complex reppers leaves you with gimped HP. However, the accelerating armor repair could be a nice idea.
I think armor users would rather be faster than get a flat HP buff.
Maybe the armor plate skill should reduce mass penalty instead of increase efficacy, or there should be a new skill. Or, all the speed penalties should be normalized at 3% or 5%. I don't think there's an inherent justification in equating skilling up or using more advanced mods with being slower (you're fitting a better plate, not a bigger one). Also plates already have to deal with increased isk + increased cpu/pg for upping to complex. BTW even on spaceships, a higher meta level armor plate is both lighter and gives more hp than a lower meta level plate in the same class. In Dust, CCP has confused this concept of plate size among a class of plates that vary in tech level but not specification/size. Devs, its ******. The argument can certainly be made that flatly increasing HP is alone too powerful in an FPS, and this is why better plates should have worse penalties. Heck, I would even agree with this, but then, where does that leave shield tanking? |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Top Men.
1027
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Posted - 2013.07.10 07:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
shield tanking is actually viable, and shields recover without modules. armor does not. shields recharge rapidly. armor does not.
in fact armor has absolutely no benefit right now that shields do not do better. Armor COULD have a significantly larger buffer at the cost of speed. a large buffer could allow a slower armor tanked force to weather fire long enough to get the job done.
it's the tradeoff. do you go for the fast, fast regenerating method, or the slower, steady turtle method?
at this point it becomes a question of playstyle more than viability. but the fact remains, armor sucks the ass end.
The proposal here makes a very large distinction between both shields and armor while making both viable.
speed is great, but so is the ability to take withering fire. I think armor should be focused on sustained soaking pain, not moving fast and quick recoveries.
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lol bunnies
Always playing to AFK
7
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Posted - 2013.07.10 07:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Oh logic how I have missed you. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Top Men.
1028
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Posted - 2013.07.10 07:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
To expand, the choices we seem to be facing for armor tanking to make it equally viable to shields is removing the speed penalty from plates and giving armor native reps, but the objection of most armor tankers is that we do not want armor to just be another name for shields, and for them to work the same way.
Basically most of the vocal armor tankers find the idea of simply taking away the speed problem and doing nothing else to be the lazy, boring and really not fun way out. Resistances are a *****, and there's other problems like new modules that make shield tankers better at armor tanking than armor tankers.
the other potential balance point is drastically increasing the buffer and keeping the speed fault and making the reps operate differently from shields while remaining viable. Sure you can't dodge for ****, but damn that caldari assault or logi aren't going to kick your ass trivially if they can't just run in and vaporize you in two seconds. |
Galvan Nized
Deep Space Republic
Top Men.
85
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Posted - 2013.07.10 07:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:shield tanking is actually viable, and shields recover without modules. armor does not. shields recharge rapidly. armor does not.
in fact armor has absolutely no benefit right now that shields do not do better. Armor COULD have a significantly larger buffer at the cost of speed. a large buffer could allow a slower armor tanked force to weather fire long enough to get the job done.
it's the tradeoff. do you go for the fast, fast regenerating method, or the slower, steady turtle method?
at this point it becomes a question of playstyle more than viability. but the fact remains, armor sucks the ass end.
The proposal here makes a very large distinction between both shields and armor while making both viable.
speed is great, but so is the ability to take withering fire. I think armor should be focused on sustained soaking pain, not moving fast and quick recoveries.
Armor has ACTIVE regen, shields do not. Big advantage to armor as it far outpaces shields passive only regen.
Give shields a penalty, nerf the Cal Logi or buff the Gal Logi, fix some mods that only fit in lows, give armor plates/reppers a SLIGHT buff and you have gone a long way in striving for "balance". We really are closer than people think, just the Cal Logi & disproportionate number of explosive weapons throw wrenches into the scheme. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Top Men.
1033
|
Posted - 2013.07.10 10:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Galvan Nized wrote:
Armor has ACTIVE regen, shields do not. Big advantage to armor as it far outpaces shields passive only regen.
Give shields a penalty, nerf the Cal Logi or buff the Gal Logi, fix some mods that only fit in lows, give armor plates/reppers a SLIGHT buff and you have gone a long way in striving for "balance". We really are closer than people think, just the Cal Logi & disproportionate number of explosive weapons throw wrenches into the scheme.
No, you put on a rep mod to gain at best 7 HP of passive armor reps per second.
Shields regen at 25-30/sec once they hit recharge rate. you have to utilize 4 (that's 4 low slots kiddies) armor reps to achieve something in the ballpark of shield rep without modules.
Active repair on armor my ass. active reppers only exist on tanks and other vehicles.
Further a slight buff to plates means jack all when militia locus nades can one shot a gallente assault. I don't think little buffs will cut it there. When people say shields outstrip armor we are not talking in little ways. we are talking in LARGE grades of outclassing.
Armor tanking versus shield tanking is nowhere NEAR as close as you think. shields have all of the advantages, armor has all the drawbacks currently. We want to bring armor UP to the level of shields and not have them play the same way.
You do not achieve parity by forcing one group to utilize modules to repair when the other can do it without modules without giving the former an advantage worth giving the regen up. We don't have that. |
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