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R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
159
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Posted - 2013.07.09 06:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
Doyle Reese wrote:there is no reason why splash damage is almost full impact damage, that's just bad, should be around 50%, 60% tops. Also, RoF could be lowered a bit, I hate being killed by 2 Flaylock rounds because I couldn't react to the second shot after the first hit near me. But since CCP is reworking the entire hit detection system, let's wait until the the system is in the game and then revisit the issue.
Splash damage isn't almost full impact damage |
R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
166
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Posted - 2013.07.09 17:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:R'adeh Hunt wrote:Doyle Reese wrote:there is no reason why splash damage is almost full impact damage, that's just bad, should be around 50%, 60% tops. Also, RoF could be lowered a bit, I hate being killed by 2 Flaylock rounds because I couldn't react to the second shot after the first hit near me. But since CCP is reworking the entire hit detection system, let's wait until the the system is in the game and then revisit the issue. Splash damage isn't almost full impact damage On the core flaylock it's pretty damn close. Both over 200 I believe.
You should really at least look at the stats before making random statements that are wrong |
R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
166
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Posted - 2013.07.09 17:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
WUT ANG wrote:The flaylock should have the same reload style as the plasma cannon and reduce the clip size to one as well its a missle shooting pistol I think that might give it more balance.
In short, you want to make sure it can't ever kill anything but scouts if it gets a lucky shot...you sound like a very reasonable person |
R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
166
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 18:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Xero The Mishima wrote:Absoliav wrote:As I'm sure many of you have noticed that quite a few people aren't too happy with the Flaylock, but I don't think there are really sure as to why. Here is what we know, the Flaylock is a burst damage weapon with AoE abilities, low clip size, reasonable reload speed, low spare ammo, bullet travel time and bullet falloff, now on paper that sounds like a pretty well balanced weapon.
But if you look pass the gun and look at the finer details of the game we can see the real balance issue, the skill tree. The slandered FL has a base damage of 218 and a splash of 195, with a radius of 1m and a reload of 2.5, now it's proto version has Dam of 239.8 and a splash of 214.5, a radius of 2m with the same reload speed as before, in my opinion, this is one of the only proto guns that is actually worth paying for. So, now that's out of the way, the problem comes from the skill that affects the FL's damage, FL proficiency. Now their is our culprit, at level 5 it gives the FL a 15% buff to damage, which looks like 250.7 base and 224.25 splash for the slandered, while the proto looks like 275.7 and a splash of 246.6, now if we add two Complex mods and the 20% bonus from armor damage, and well it just becomes a nightmare. But the worst part of all this is, that the FL doesn't have any real drawbacks for using it, only inconveniences, I'm not sure how, but I do know FL needs weakness other than range, which is the common problem for most weapons, putting the FL "ahead of the game".
So, lets brainstorm on ideas on how to balance the FL, maybe it needs a CPU/PG requirement, maybe it needs a slower rate of fire, or maybe it needs more bullet travel time, let's figure something out? Nerf the splash damage down to 70-80dmg (it's a sidearm not a go to gun, also the gun should not be superior to it's primary relative The Mass Driver) ROF is too fast maybe slow it down 75% or at least 60%. Put it up there with other sidearms as far as CPU/PG req. make it shoot once than reload after each shot. A combo of a few of these or all of them would work.
All those changes are horrible and WAY over the top...there would be no reason whatsoever to ever use the flaylock again because it's stats (especially DPS!) would be ridiculously bad compared to other sidearms.
I'm glad you're not a dev!
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R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
170
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Posted - 2013.07.09 19:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Absoliav wrote:ZDub 303 wrote:Every gun has proficiency, its not the issue at all. Its the fact that core flaylock has 2.5x the blast radius as the std version.
Name me another gun that is 2.5x as effective between std to proto? None...
Normalize splash radius to 1.5m. Decrease splash damage by 40% Change FP Op to increase splash damage by 5% per level.
yay balance. I'm sorry, I explained it wrong, the proficiency isn't the problem, it's how damage stacking works with the FL so well that's the problem, proficiency is only a part of it, the FL's damage is just too good for the amount of damage without damage buffs from mods/skills. Changing OP into splash damage sound like a pretty cool idea, but I'm not too on the reduced radius though, and by that, I mean how much of an impact it would have on the effectiveness of the FL it would have, the last thing I would like to see is, it not being effective in it area of expertise. the increasing splash is EXACTLY the reason we are here now. Either an 80% reduction in splash damage, or a mild reduction in splash radius will be necessary to bring this down from god status. I vote for rewarding player skill myself. You always here the same things over and over with this gun. std sucks balls, adv is pretty balanced, and pro is lolz. what changes between the tiers? oh yeah.. splash radius.
Comon', now you're surely joking!
Removing 80% of splash damage on a gun that makes it very hard to get direct hits is RIDICULOUS!! |
R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
170
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:09:00 -
[6] - Quote
Xero The Mishima wrote: You shouldn't be specing all out into Sidearms.
Says who? If you're willing to deal with the trade offs, why shouldn't you be allowed to only spec into sidearms? You get lesser range, smaller clip size, smaller total ammo, bullet travel time, arcs, etc...every sidearm has disadvantages.
In EVE nothing's stopping me from fitting cruise sized guns on my BS if I want to, it adds flexibility and variety to the game. In fact, one of my favorite setup is a BS with cruiser blasters (dual repper/injector domi of doom). There too I accept certain disadvantages in return for doing that.
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R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
173
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Posted - 2013.07.09 19:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:R'adeh Hunt wrote:Zatara Rought wrote:R'adeh Hunt wrote:Doyle Reese wrote:there is no reason why splash damage is almost full impact damage, that's just bad, should be around 50%, 60% tops. Also, RoF could be lowered a bit, I hate being killed by 2 Flaylock rounds because I couldn't react to the second shot after the first hit near me. But since CCP is reworking the entire hit detection system, let's wait until the the system is in the game and then revisit the issue. Splash damage isn't almost full impact damage On the core flaylock it's pretty damn close. Both over 200 I believe. You should really at least look at the stats before making random statements that are wrong Direct DPS is 239.8 Splash is 214.5 Hmm....let me guess..you use a flaylock and are going around taking issue with nerfing it to hell because you rely on it. Please don't be a **** and challenge my assertions solely because you're worried CCP will nerf your crutch.
Again, switch on your brain and do some research! The damage difference between a direct hit and splash damage is 239.8. Why? Because a direct hit adds splash damage to the direct hit damage. They do that because other than at super close range, direct hits are basically pure luck.
For someone who cries nerf you sure don't know what you're talking about
God you EoN people seem clueless and some of the biggest whiners on the forum... |
R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
173
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
P14GU3 wrote:Actually R'adeh, its direct damage or spalsh damage, not both. That's twice you've been wrong...
Maybe its you who should check your info
Right...so if you're right, OHKs are impossible with the flaylock |
R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
173
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
Xero The Mishima wrote:R'adeh Hunt wrote:Xero The Mishima wrote: You shouldn't be specing all out into Sidearms. Says who? If you're willing to deal with the trade offs, why shouldn't you be allowed to only spec into sidearms? You get lesser range, smaller clip size, smaller total ammo, bullet travel time, arcs, etc...every sidearm has disadvantages. In EVE nothing's stopping me from fitting cruise sized guns on my BS if I want to, it adds flexibility and variety to the game. In fact, one of my favorite setup is a BS with cruiser blasters (dual repper/injector domi of doom). There too I accept certain disadvantages in return for doing that. SIDEARMS should not be reliable killing weapons. They wouldn't be SIDEARMS they would be PRIMARY. You are using a SIDEARM as a PRIMARY! Should not be that effective to pull that off. Sidearm is supposed to be last resort. Primary bullets run out you use. Flaylock has more than enough to outshine most if not ALL primary weapons. It needs to be broke, the people that depend on it.. GET GOOD.
If you can't kill anything with a sidearm, what's the point? You already have major trade offs like range for crying out loud...
Also, try the other proto sidearms and you'll realise they aren't really any worse than the proto flaylock. |
R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
175
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 19:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
P14GU3 wrote:R'adeh Hunt wrote:P14GU3 wrote:Actually R'adeh, its direct damage or spalsh damage, not both. That's twice you've been wrong...
Maybe its you who should check your info Right...so if you're right, OHKs are impossible with the flaylock With 2 complex damage mods??
When I ran flaylocks I never fitted any damage mods...still got OHKs against scouts and badly fit non-proto suits if I got a direct hit. That wouldn't have been possible if the max damage for a direct hit is a mere 240. In short, the guy saying the difference between direct hit and splash is only around 20 dps is simply wrong
By the way, I now mostly run proto scrambler pistols...if you can aim, they're just as deadly...and more effective at range because shots connect quicker. Proto SMGs are godly too. |
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R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
175
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Posted - 2013.07.09 19:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
Absoliav wrote:P14GU3 wrote:Actually R'adeh, its direct damage or spalsh damage, not both. That's twice you've been wrong...
Maybe its you who should check your info He is right, you only get one or the other, not both.
Again, if he's right, ppl couldn't complain about OHK given the max damage output is a mere 240 per shot. |
R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
175
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 20:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
That's exactly the thing...they mostly complain about a PROTO weapon's damage output against mostly non-proto suits. They also don't compare the stats against other proto sidearms.
I was an SMG knifer before the respec, both proto, both godly against pretty much everything non proto. They're both still good against proto suits and don't really feel underpowered. After the respec, I did the same for the flaylock and scrambler pistol. Once you get the hang of aiming and realise the SP is more effective at range, you realise that the proto SP is just as deadly as the proto flaylock.
You just see more people speccing into proto flaylocks because it's a new gun and it's getting a lot of hype. If they nerf it like they did to the MD, ppl will switch to the SP or SMG....both of which will then be called OP at proto level. And the cycle continues i
To those saying "oh, but what about those running dual flaylocks"...well...have you tried dual proto SMGs? The amount of shots you have (and at close range you don't even need to aim well) is amazing. Same goes for dual SPs, the damage output is outright scary. But in all those cases you sacrifice range or suffer from other drawbacks, sometimes multiple drawbacks. |
R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
176
|
Posted - 2013.07.09 20:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
Absoliav wrote:R'adeh Hunt wrote:Absoliav wrote:P14GU3 wrote:Actually R'adeh, its direct damage or spalsh damage, not both. That's twice you've been wrong...
Maybe its you who should check your info He is right, you only get one or the other, not both. Again, if he's right, ppl couldn't complain about OHK given the max damage output is a mere 240 per shot. You are aware that a FL can shoot all three shots before you even know where there coming from, right? It's not that hard, which is the main problem with the FL, they don't magically kill things with one shot, if you shoot any advance suit(other than a Light Suit) with a FL, they will not go down in one shot, the FL can shoot three shots that can do over 200 damage, that's what kills people, this is with out damage mods or skills being applied.
At which point he has to reload and is out of the game for a bit...during which time most opponents can continue to fire at the flaylocker. Not only that, you can't balance a proto weapon against advanced or light suits. |
R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
200
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Posted - 2013.07.09 22:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
Absoliav wrote:R'adeh Hunt wrote:That's exactly the thing...they mostly complain about a PROTO weapon's damage output against mostly non-proto suits. They also don't compare the stats against other proto sidearms. I was an SMG knifer before the respec, both proto, both godly against pretty much everything non proto. They're both still good against proto suits and don't really feel underpowered. After the respec, I did the same for the flaylock and scrambler pistol. Once you get the hang of aiming and realise the SP is more effective at range, you realise that the proto SP is just as deadly as the proto flaylock. You just see more people speccing into proto flaylocks because it's a new gun and it's getting a lot of hype. If they nerf it like they did to the MD, ppl will switch to the SP or SMG....both of which will then be called OP at proto level. And the cycle continues i To those saying "oh, but what about those running dual flaylocks"...well...have you tried dual proto SMGs? The amount of shots you have (and at close range you don't even need to aim well) is amazing. Same goes for dual SPs, the damage output is outright scary. But in all those cases you sacrifice range or suffer from other drawbacks, sometimes multiple drawbacks. I agree with you, we shouldn't nerf weapons just because we don't like them/latest trend, as you said, all weapons in the game have some sort of balancing point that limits it to considerable degree, but the only one that doesn't is the FL.
But it has! Clip size, range, arc, bullet travel time...those are all downsides.
Also, ppl mostly seem to have an issue with the core flaylock only...which is because it's a PROTO gun, it's supposed to slaughter non-proto gear. It doesn't do that to proto suits that are properly fit. |
R'adeh Hunt
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
202
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Posted - 2013.07.10 06:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Funny to see the whiny EoN guys still coming up with asinine ideas like "just remove the weapon". |
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