DUST Search - Actual Data for OP weapon use and OPness

Buster Friently wrote:

Marston VC wrote:

1.) SMG's in my opinion are overpowered (especially the proto version) HOWEVER this weapon has missed out on the nerf hammer because it's an under used weapon. It doesn't get reallllyyy good until you have the ishukone assault SMG with proficiency 4 or 5 so most people aren't willing to make that kind of investment. But that thing is literally the breach rifle on steroids. (in that it has the same range as the breach AR) but it shoots out FAR more bullets. Especially now with the range buffs to every gun. Seriously..... that thing is sooooo good and nobody besides me and some other vets have actually specced into them.

2.) The flaylock pistol IS OP, HOWEVER it is also a niche weapon. Some people don't like it because of a three round clip, others don't like it because it can do damage back, but nobody can deny that three of those rounds at your feet will kill you. I mean..... 200 splash damage??? really?? ffs man! It does better then actual missile launchers :/ and the real problem is with minmatar assaults running around with dual proto flaylocks! that coupled with the fact that weapon swap speed was increased makes it so that the flaylock pistol is practically a better version of the mass driver. Only it costs the same as a sidearm..... (isk/fitting wise).

3.) The fact that both of these weapons are above Scrambler rifles speak wonders. Sure! They have less kills in four matches then some of the more established and prominent guns in game, but at the end of the day that doesn't change them from being OP or Not OP. I mean..... the scrambler rifle is the answer to shield tanking, yet assault rifles are used more, and that's simply because its the most familiar weapon people see when coming into this game. Therefore people prefer them, therefore they are more common, therefore other weapons are less common, therefore people can get upset if they die from weapons there not used to dying from.

What would have been far more interesting is to post up the amount of instances each player in all four matches carried their specific weapons. There could have been 5 flaylock users in each match, but if only 1 or 2 of them got any kills that's all were seeing right now.

And even if it turns out there isn't that many users to specific guns, that too does not prove its balanced. Back in closed beta Tanks = god mode. CCP made them incredibly hard to kill so as to test out how people would react. They were the most overpowered thing this game has ever had. (imagine a tank that could tank 13 standard forge gun shots before its shields were gone). HOWEVER not everyone used them! In fact, its pretty easy to say only a majority of people specced into tanks at that time. I mean if there was 4 tanks per match that build, there was still 12 other people who didn't use them. The fact of the matter issssss

Preference > Weapon effectiveness

People will play more with what they enjoy rather then what is better at killing. This does not mean OP weapons like the Flaylock pistol don't exist, it just means that most people prefer not to use a gun as gimmicky as that.

Having a niche, by definition, means the weapon is capable of killing in it's preferred role, but not outside of it. This is made plainly clear by the numbers. The Flaylock has a niche, but is not OP.

The SMG, is also, less OP than the generalist weapon of the AR even considering that the AR is a "comfort weapon" for most players. Having said that, the AR represents more than twice the number of kills as the next highest light weapon. That, my friend, is the definition of OP. The fact that more people carry it is just more evidence.


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Marston VC SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 437	Posted - 2013.07.07 22:07:00 - [1] - Quote 1.) SMG's in my opinion are overpowered (especially the proto version) HOWEVER this weapon has missed out on the nerf hammer because it's an under used weapon. It doesn't get reallllyyy good until you have the ishukone assault SMG with proficiency 4 or 5 so most people aren't willing to make that kind of investment. But that thing is literally the breach rifle on steroids. (in that it has the same range as the breach AR) but it shoots out FAR more bullets. Especially now with the range buffs to every gun. Seriously..... that thing is sooooo good and nobody besides me and some other vets have actually specced into them. 2.) The flaylock pistol IS OP, HOWEVER it is also a niche weapon. Some people don't like it because of a three round clip, others don't like it because it can do damage back, but nobody can deny that three of those rounds at your feet will kill you. I mean..... 200 splash damage??? really?? ffs man! It does better then actual missile launchers :/ and the real problem is with minmatar assaults running around with dual proto flaylocks! that coupled with the fact that weapon swap speed was increased makes it so that the flaylock pistol is practically a better version of the mass driver. Only it costs the same as a sidearm..... (isk/fitting wise). 3.) The fact that both of these weapons are above Scrambler rifles speak wonders. Sure! They have less kills in four matches then some of the more established and prominent guns in game, but at the end of the day that doesn't change them from being OP or Not OP. I mean..... the scrambler rifle is the answer to shield tanking, yet assault rifles are used more, and that's simply because its the most familiar weapon people see when coming into this game. Therefore people prefer them, therefore they are more common, therefore other weapons are less common, therefore people can get upset if they die from weapons there not used to dying from. What would have been far more interesting is to post up the amount of instances each player in all four matches carried their specific weapons. There could have been 5 flaylock users in each match, but if only 1 or 2 of them got any kills that's all were seeing right now. And even if it turns out there isn't that many users to specific guns, that too does not prove its balanced. Back in closed beta Tanks = god mode. CCP made them incredibly hard to kill so as to test out how people would react. They were the most overpowered thing this game has ever had. (imagine a tank that could tank 13 standard forge gun shots before its shields were gone). HOWEVER not everyone used them! In fact, its pretty easy to say only a majority of people specced into tanks at that time. I mean if there was 4 tanks per match that build, there was still 12 other people who didn't use them. The fact of the matter issssss Preference > Weapon effectiveness People will play more with what they enjoy rather then what is better at killing. This does not mean OP weapons like the Flaylock pistol don't exist, it just means that most people prefer not to use a gun as gimmicky as that.
Marston VC SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 440	Posted - 2013.07.07 22:30:00 - [2] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: Marston VC wrote: 1.) SMG's in my opinion are overpowered (especially the proto version) HOWEVER this weapon has missed out on the nerf hammer because it's an under used weapon. It doesn't get reallllyyy good until you have the ishukone assault SMG with proficiency 4 or 5 so most people aren't willing to make that kind of investment. But that thing is literally the breach rifle on steroids. (in that it has the same range as the breach AR) but it shoots out FAR more bullets. Especially now with the range buffs to every gun. Seriously..... that thing is sooooo good and nobody besides me and some other vets have actually specced into them. 2.) The flaylock pistol IS OP, HOWEVER it is also a niche weapon. Some people don't like it because of a three round clip, others don't like it because it can do damage back, but nobody can deny that three of those rounds at your feet will kill you. I mean..... 200 splash damage??? really?? ffs man! It does better then actual missile launchers :/ and the real problem is with minmatar assaults running around with dual proto flaylocks! that coupled with the fact that weapon swap speed was increased makes it so that the flaylock pistol is practically a better version of the mass driver. Only it costs the same as a sidearm..... (isk/fitting wise). 3.) The fact that both of these weapons are above Scrambler rifles speak wonders. Sure! They have less kills in four matches then some of the more established and prominent guns in game, but at the end of the day that doesn't change them from being OP or Not OP. I mean..... the scrambler rifle is the answer to shield tanking, yet assault rifles are used more, and that's simply because its the most familiar weapon people see when coming into this game. Therefore people prefer them, therefore they are more common, therefore other weapons are less common, therefore people can get upset if they die from weapons there not used to dying from. What would have been far more interesting is to post up the amount of instances each player in all four matches carried their specific weapons. There could have been 5 flaylock users in each match, but if only 1 or 2 of them got any kills that's all were seeing right now. And even if it turns out there isn't that many users to specific guns, that too does not prove its balanced. Back in closed beta Tanks = god mode. CCP made them incredibly hard to kill so as to test out how people would react. They were the most overpowered thing this game has ever had. (imagine a tank that could tank 13 standard forge gun shots before its shields were gone). HOWEVER not everyone used them! In fact, its pretty easy to say only a majority of people specced into tanks at that time. I mean if there was 4 tanks per match that build, there was still 12 other people who didn't use them. The fact of the matter issssss Preference > Weapon effectiveness People will play more with what they enjoy rather then what is better at killing. This does not mean OP weapons like the Flaylock pistol don't exist, it just means that most people prefer not to use a gun as gimmicky as that. Having a niche, by definition, means the weapon is capable of killing in it's preferred role, but not outside of it. This is made plainly clear by the numbers. The Flaylock has a niche, but is not OP. The SMG, is also, less OP than the generalist weapon of the AR even considering that the AR is a "comfort weapon" for most players. Having said that, the AR represents more than twice the number of kills as the next highest light weapon. That, my friend, is the definition of OP. The fact that more people carry it is just more evidence. Seriously??? The whole point I wrote all of that was to try and drive this 1 point home........ JUST BECAUSE a weapon ISN'T used as often as another DOES NOT mean its not OP........ I used the word "niche" to try and explain why people don't use it as much, and its hard to come up with another word that would fit the same role. But the weapon is NOT OP because so many people use it, the weapon is OP BECAUSE it's TOO effective in its "niche" Trust me, I tried defending the laser rifle as much as I could last build because it was my only specced into weapon (aside from the SMG) And now that its been nerfed and I look back on what I was doing with it..... that **** was OP, LOL the fact that I could use it as an assault rifle (with damage mods) is proof that it wasn't being used as intended. The fact that Flaylock pistols can be used as a substitute for a mass driver, OR many primary weapons in general is Proof that its OP.
Marston VC SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 440	Posted - 2013.07.07 22:32:00 - [3] - Quote Oh, and the reason why the AR is used so much more is because its like the "jack of all trades" its not as good at close range as a shotgun, and its not as good at long range as the laser rifle, but it has a good average effectiveness in all of those ranges which is why its popular. Less thought has to go into it in order to use it. Its not Number 1 because its OP, in fact I would go the opposite way and say its Number 1 BECAUSSEEEEE it is balanced.
Marston VC SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 440	Posted - 2013.07.07 23:00:00 - [4] - Quote Quote: Actually it does mean it's OP. Look at it this way, if everyone wants to use that weapon, to the exclusion of the other weapons that diversify the game, it means the weapon is too desirable, and is damaging diversity. this, in turn, means either that the weapon in question needs to be made less desirable, or the alternative weapons need to be made more desirable. Which should we do with regards to the AR? Actually it does not mean its OP, nothing should be done in regards to the AR as its been nerfed enough to where its balanced now. Your thinking about as open minded as a fruit fly right now, and im not going to argue the point any further. What ive said already is more then reason enough to undermine your claim, and I think a majority of the people who play this game, along with devs too, agree with me on this topic. Guns are not OP because of player preference. They are OP because of how over effective they are for the people that do use them. By your definition the game is balanced when every gun is used equally, but I will tell you right now, there will never be as many scrambler pistol users as SMG users, and there will never be as many Laser rifle users as there are Assault rifle users, and the reason for that is because the first of each comparison is too far out of the common populace's comfort zone.
Marston VC SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 453	Posted - 2013.07.08 05:49:00 - [5] - Quote Jeb Kermman wrote: ZDub 303 wrote: Buster Friently wrote: I've heard this about PC. I've also stated that if someone actually put some numbers up, that I'd agree that the Flaylock is a problem for PC. I don't play PC. Most players don't. People can respec, and have been given two so far. Also, with events like the 3x weekend we are currently having, people have the opportunity to get into other weapons. See, the thing is, they don't. We are, what, 5 months since open beta began (3.65 mil SP from passive alone), and AR kills represent two thirds of all weapon kills from light and sidearm. That isn't preference, that a problem for diversity, that's OP. That's only part of the picture... we need to spec into SO much more than just weapons. What you're saying may be true in another year or so... but for now people are still working on their first suit, and their core skills, they can only spare the SP to spec deep into a single weapon for the time being. I know thats how it is for me... I have 15 million SP.. im still not done with core skills or modules I want, i'm millions away from finishing equipment still, I haven't touched grenades yet at all. I have only one suit I can use, and that is the cal logi I chose... to get cal assault i have to spend another 2.5 million SP... thats 5 weeks boosted and 8-9 weeks unboosted. So no.. this game is extremely punishing in its SP system... which is fine.. this is what we all signed up for.. but you can't say "waaaa theres no weapon diversity nerf the AR!" when if you had the choice of only a single weapon, which would you pick? the situationally useful one or one that does decent in most situations? However.. you still can't take these metrics and say the FP is somehow underpowered cause its not seeing the same number of kills in a match as the AR. It takes time and sp to spec the 610k SP you need to get FP Op 5, and thats SP you have to take away from the core skill you were planning to get. Not a lot of people are willing to do that yet.. but that still doesnt mean the weapon is not too powerful. In the end the TTK on that gun is too low... it take 1.5s to fire all three shots.. and with 2.5m splash a skilled player can land all three no problem. That's a 1.5s TTK on any proto suit... that's too powerful... its almost impossible to dodge with 2.5m splash.. and even if you do.. a follow up fused locus and its over. Nothing has that kind of consistent TTK on moving targets except for guns that 1 shot like Thales or FGs on direct hits. AR can't do that on a moving target at all.. period. This is semi true. What you describe is a choice as well. For example, I have three weapons into proficiency, and most of my core skills. I don't have any proto suits though. So people do spec differently as well. I'd also like to point out that we saw plenty of people jump into the TAR bandwagon rapidly, despite it being meta 4 or 5. Granted it was in the AR tree, and still is, but we've also had respecs since then too. So, people can move, but I agree it isn't entirely fluid. My point is that based on the data, now, the FP is not OP. If anything is, it's the AR. this is all subject to change as the game evolves though. Because of your argument im moved to jump back into the debate of this thread. I can back up your claim with a little history lesson in the chromosome build...... Back in chromosome, early on I was one of the few that used Laser rifles almost exclusively. Laser rifles became effective in almost every situation so long as it wasn't "close range" and my proto smg made up for that big time! This coupled with the fact that nothing else compete with laser rifles in what they did EXCEPT for laser rifles, made me a god in my niche. My average k/d last build at its height was 7.12 and was only getting better. (this build killed it, though its on the rise again with my new found "god" gun). However as the chromosome build got older, more and more people started using laser rifles. I started seeing prominent figures like "Mr. Zitro" abusing certain buildings on certain maps with the Laser Rifle, and towards the end of the build it was common to see the Laser rifle being used by at-least 5-6 people every match per match. It was like a laser party and everyone was using it because they finally finished what they wanted to spec into, and were tired of getting killed by the god gun LR. How do I know this?? Because a majority of the people in my corp did this!! All of them, specialized into what they were used to doing. AR's, HMG's, shotguns, but only two other people consistently used LR's. By the end of the build half my corp had specced into LR's at some level or another. I consistently ran with squads that had at-least four members using the LR. And when I asked them why they finally came over to my side they said "because its OP, and im tired of being killed by it without being able to do anything back" that's all that needs to be said..... The flaylock pistol is also getting closer to this stage, I have many friends with 13 + million SP and one by one there speccing into FLP's. When asked why they do it, they say "well its the only way to beat them" "beat who" I ask "the douche bags that use them!" "oh......" You see..... If I go up against a squad of guys all using FLP's what am I supposed to do that will stop them????? THREE ROUNDS FROM A CORE FL PISTOL WILL KILL ME IN A PROTO SUIT REGARDLESS OF WHOME EACH SHOT CAME FROM, so how do I counter that??? Do I stand my ground and get blasted??? do I toss a grenade and get blasted? do I just run away and waste my time running? Theres nothing I can do to counter it..... even if im in a squad the chances of beating an equally skilled squad with their side all using this weapon is minimal..... the AOE damage is just tooo much to compete with anything less then...... RE baiting, or Core locus grenade spamming.
Marston VC SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 453	Posted - 2013.07.08 05:54:00 - [6] - Quote In short, this pistol will become more popular as people get more SP to spend on it. Just because its more common for an AR to be in a match then other weapons does not mean its OP. And even then you have to take into consideration that there are Four variants of the AR, each of which behaves completely differently then another And just to top all of this off...... four games worth of data is hardly enough to accurately judge a weapons level of preference in a game. Especially in a game as diverse as this. And to top it off the data isn't even specific. Theres no mention as to weather nor not someone was actually holding the gun, and the skills each of the people had specced into, or the average K/d Of each person who got a kill with specific guns. Theres just too little data to make one broad "AR's are OP because....." claim. God this argument is stupid.
Marston VC SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 454	Posted - 2013.07.08 06:04:00 - [7] - Quote Lol! heres a thought! Put an AR user in a small box with a FL person and see who wins. Its like a lab study. Find someone with the standard FL nothing more specced into using the amar standard suit (cuz the shield/armor stats are even). Then find somebody else with the standard AR and the same suit. start the test at 5 meters and see who wins. Start the test at 10 and see who wins, start it at 15 and see who wins. I suspect that the AR wills start winning more often at the 15 meter mark, BUT that's only if its in the open without any cover. AND counting on the fact that neither of them have second weapons. To fix this you could do the same tests in different scenarios (btw, the reason why FL's are such a big problem is because they dominate close quarters, and guess what!!! most the action in this game takes place close quarters.......) where theres cover and hills ect...... Then do a test with two people who both have AR's but only one has an FL fitted to them (simulating the underuse of a players sidearm in public matches) (many people don't use or simply don't fit sidearms onto their suits to decrease power consumption). At the end of the day I have a feeling that the FLP users are going to have a much better chance of coming out on top compared to an AR user. And when you think about it statistically..... HOW IN THE HELL DOES THIS GUN HAVE BETTER STATS THEN OTHER, MUCH BIGGER, EXPLOSIVE WEAPONS?????? I could understand a cool pistol with a 16 round clip that shoots a little slower then the breach SMG. But a pistol that has three bullets, all which can be fired in less then 2 seconds, that all have more blast damage then a missile that's bigger then the gun....... isn't that wrong in principle??? Whats easier, buffing everything else to meet its standard? or nerfing this gun so that it actually makes sense? on a statistical level that is.
Marston VC SVER True Blood Public Disorder. 454	Posted - 2013.07.08 06:17:00 - [8] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: Marston VC wrote: In short, this pistol will become more popular as people get more SP to spend on it. Just because its more common for an AR to be in a match then other weapons does not mean its OP. And even then you have to take into consideration that there are Four variants of the AR, each of which behaves completely differently then another And just to top all of this off...... four games worth of data is hardly enough to accurately judge a weapons level of preference in a game. Especially in a game as diverse as this. And to top it off the data isn't even specific. Theres no mention as to weather nor not someone was actually holding the gun, and the skills each of the people had specced into, or the average K/d Of each person who got a kill with specific guns. Theres just too little data to make one broad "AR's are OP because....." claim. God this argument is stupid. Actually the point mainly, was that the data doesn't (at the time) support the argument that the FP is OP. The AR is clearly the standout weapon in the data set though and in some cases it is used more than 10 times as often for kills as very similar weapons, and based on the second set, we are talking about 850 kills, Not great, but still significant. Also, I have never claimed that the killfeed can show anything other than kills. Maybe the FP will become more popular as time goes on. But it isn't now, not in pubs at least. Your right when you say its not common, even ill admit this, but neither was my LR until later on...... Be honest, how many 1 v 1's do you win when your opponent has dual core flaylock pistols??? and im not talking 'oh I got the jump on him! im a beast for beating him!!' im talking, you turn a corner, theres a proto caldari/minmatar assault and he sees you too. If you say you win a majority of those fights im calling you out on BS. But I guess that's all I can do right? Ill tell you right now that im not a bad player. My k/d is 5.85. last build it was above seven. Ive played this game for 12 months and ive done a lot of stuff in it. I rank top 300 in the worldwide leaderboards. And last time I checked I have well over 1 million WP and 14 million SP in this build. I know none of that proves im "good" but it shows that at the very least im experienced. And with the experience ive accrued the last few weeks, its safe to say that FL spam is ridiculously OP from my perspective. Its not that im mad about dying from someobody more then twice..... no. I get mad when I die from the same FL using person 5 times in a row, in three different settings. The only time beating him in the wide open when he got too cocky and thought he could charge at me from 30 feet away (and even then I only barely lived.....). So I mean..... preaching that the AR is OP because its overused is just a foreign concept to me. 1.) I use the scrambler rifle and NOTHING else..... I mean, im a logi user so the SR is literally the only thing I can use (aside from grenades) to kill people. 2.) im used to dying from an AR, always have been, always will be. Your theory would be correct if you said something like..... the only way this would be balanced is if theres an equal amount of people using an equal varients of guns in the same weapon class. IE: The SR is UP because it has 1/10 of the kills as an AR. But your saying one gun is OP compared to the others because it has more kills then many things that aren't even in the same class as it...... There will never be as many AV weapon kills as Assault weapon kills, nor will there ever be as many Sidearm kills as there are turret kills (tanks) but that's to be expected simply because that's what a sidearm is! Each weapon has a role to fulfill, and unfortunately some guns were built to have a "jack of all trades" function keeping people from being "too" overwhelmed by the game.