DUST Search - Actual Data for OP weapon use and OPness

semperfi1999 wrote:

I used the imp scrambler rifle...you have to remember it works differently....I can get 21 shots out of the imp rifle before overheating and that may not even be the fastest it can be fired. As you hold the button the shot charges so your 15 shots are doing alot more dmg than the 79.2 base dmg...its a small charged shot so it may be even doing dmg of over 100 per sho (not including any bonuses). The differences between the tact and the imp scrambler actually shows the imp rifle being better. tact has to reload after 18 shots.....imp scrambler can fire 21 times before overheating (so but still doesnt need to reload). The dmg of the tact is 72.9 i believe??? Dmg to shields are scrmb 109.30 and tact 92.21. Dmg to armor are tact 75.45 and scrmb 72.86. As you can see the scrmb benefits more from its bonuses and has less of a deficiency for its negative. It does 17 additional dmg to shields.....while only doing 3 dmg less to armor. (assuming my numbers were correct...I used 71.2 for the tact and 79.2 for the scrambler which i think is correct if my memory serves).


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Delenne Arran Ivory Hounds 31	Posted - 2013.07.08 06:58:00 - [1] - Quote Interesting data, although I've got to side with those who disagree with Buster's definition of Overpowered, as a few important things are overlooked. A weapon that consistently out competes others IS overpowered, but there are other factors that need to be taken into account. Take the Scrambler Rifle. At first glance, it appears to be hideously underpowered. As others have pointed out, however, it's ridiculously good at stripping shields, although not so much with armor. This means that while it scores few kills, many will use it to damage their target's shield, then finish them off with a high armor damage weapon, like the SMG. This inflates the SMG's numbers while dragging down the Scrambler's, although both are serving their purpose well. In addition, since you're using number of kills as your metric, you need to take into account how well the individuals getting those kills are actually doing in the match. Often, there will only be one guy using a Flaylock, but he'll go 16/0 with it, while there may be 4 guys with Mass Drives in another match who only get 5 kills and 7 deaths each. Individual skill can make this unreliable, but it's still a factor that needs to be looked into. There's also the amount of skill and specialization required to use a gun effectively. This, I think is why many call the Flaylock overpowered. It my experience, it's usually bunny-hopping scouts that use the Flaylock, often to the exclusion of any other weapons. This is definitely a highly specialized playstyle, but it's one that, on the surface, seems to require very little skill on the player's part .Contrast the Assault Rifle which is simultaneously low-skill and general. Pretty much anyone can pop on an AR and get a couple of kills with it. This isn't a problem, as long other guns are more effective in their more specialized roles than an AR is. That is, if a skilled Mass Driver user can keep people off an objective or out of a hallway better than some chump who picked up an AR, things are working fine, even if the MD doesn't get many kills from other sources. Finally, there's the "comfort" angle. As others have stated, individual preference plays a part, and can even cause something to appear overpowered when it's not. Originally, I was going to use Assault Rifles, but because there's no militia or Standard variant that didn't use ironsight aiming, I went with Scramblers instead. Anecdote=/=Data, but if for whatever reason, someone's more comfortable with one weapon, They'll use it, even if another is technically better. In short, I agree to an extent with your definition of OP, but find it a bit too simplistic. That said, the amount of kills a weapon gets is the first thing we should be looking at when we call something OP, but not the only one. I'm sure someone who uses this playstyle can set me straight about how difficult it actually is.However, seeing a light suit kill two people in three shots before anyone can draw a bead on them makes it LOOK easier than it likely is. EDIT: And this post came out as far more of a wall of text than I intended. Whoops.
Delenne Arran Ivory Hounds 31	Posted - 2013.07.08 17:39:00 - [2] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Actually your numbers are wrong. The difference in effectiveness to armor is 2 dmg per shot. That is the difference. Pretty sure that this is pretty small. remember the scramber gets armor to shield effectiveness of 80-120 while the gallente gets 90-110. The dmg per shot that the scrambler rifle does is significantly higher than the AR because it has a higher based dmg so it benefits more from its +20% and has less of an hit on its -20%. Believe I use the scrambler and I melt armor as fast as I did when I used the AR. Had a post all filled with math until I realized that you must have been talking about the assault scrambler and not the regular one. The damage is closer if you compare a Carthum Assault Scrambler Rifle to a regular Duvolle, but if we're talking Imperial Scrambler to a TAC, the difference is about 8 points per shot, about as much as a complex damage mod adds to the base. In addition, because the Scrambler will overheat after a charged shot and ~5 quick ones or ~15 regular shots, you can't afford to miss nearly as much. Also, I should note that when I said underpowered, I was referring to the way the OP was describing it, based on the number of kills, not how good the weapon is. On the whole, I'm happy with where the Scrambler is. I'd like it if its skill went into heat reduction or overheat cooldown length reduction instead of charge time, but that's just me getting greedy.
Delenne Arran Ivory Hounds 34	Posted - 2013.07.09 00:11:00 - [3] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: I used the imp scrambler rifle...you have to remember it works differently....I can get 21 shots out of the imp rifle before overheating and that may not even be the fastest it can be fired. As you hold the button the shot charges so your 15 shots are doing alot more dmg than the 79.2 base dmg...its a small charged shot so it may be even doing dmg of over 100 per sho (not including any bonuses). The differences between the tact and the imp scrambler actually shows the imp rifle being better. tact has to reload after 18 shots.....imp scrambler can fire 21 times before overheating (so but still doesnt need to reload). The dmg of the tact is 72.9 i believe??? Dmg to shields are scrmb 109.30 and tact 92.21. Dmg to armor are tact 75.45 and scrmb 72.86. As you can see the scrmb benefits more from its bonuses and has less of a deficiency for its negative. It does 17 additional dmg to shields.....while only doing 3 dmg less to armor. (assuming my numbers were correct...I used 71.2 for the tact and 79.2 for the scrambler which i think is correct if my memory serves). That doesn't sound quite right. For starters, the Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle (TAC)'s base damage is 78.5, not 71.2. The Imperial Scrambler Rifle (IMP)'s is 79.2. Now, here's where either you or I are calculating wrong. The IMP is a Laser weapon, so it's damage breakdown is 80% armor, 120% shields. 80% of 79.2 is 63.36 while 120% is 95.04. Meanwhile, the TAC is a Hybrid weapon, so its damage breakdown is 90% armor, 110% shield. 90% of 78.5 is 70.65, while 110% is 86.35. In short, their base damage is so close that the difference is about 10% in either direction. As for the damage from the slight charge on any shot-- Assuming there a change in damage from such a small charge, it could bring the armor damage numbers closer and shield damage farther, but without knowing how charge damage is calculated, we can't know. In addition, 21 shots before overheating is being exceptionally generous (or "cheating" via macro.) In a thread about that very problem, most Scrambler users were only able to get between 11 and 15 shots. And, while the Duvolle will need to reload after 18 shots, the reload and overheat time are equal or nearly so. A good scrambler user can space his shots to avoid the overheat, but in doing so, he'll be firing less often.