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Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
36
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Posted - 2013.06.28 07:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Redesigned dropsuit tree:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dofsg3mhhnluiny/DropsuitTree.png
Redesigned weaponry tree:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qkqj9ghmmeeao3k/WeaponTree.png
In both of the above, the militia node will automatically be purchased and will have no additional levels. It serves as a clean start point and reinforces the idea that militia gear requires no skills.
By gathering up all the suits into their respective races, we could then have 3 levels of bonuses to help reinforce characteristics of each suit. First there is the Racial bonus, then the Suit Class bonus, and finally the Suit Type bonus. Suit Type bonuses could keep their current setup of providing a generic bonus and a racial bonus.
Weapons are also gathered into their respective technology types. I feel this makes more sense as knowledge of how to use the tech of one weapon easily translates to another, i.e. SCR -> LR. This would also allow for a similar bonus scheme as the suit tree.
One possible benefit that could be implemented is for all skills that match your merc's race, their multiplier is decreased by one.
For example, using my tree with current multipliers, a Caldari trying to become a callogi would have multipliers like:
Cal suits x1
Cal Med x3
Cal Logi x7
Where as a non cal would have
Cal suits x2
Cal Med x4
Cal Logi x8
This would allow for our chosen race to actually have an effect on gameplay. (Probably would need to allow all players to reselect race once it was implemented though)
This reorganization would mean there are no pointless SP sinks (as long as CCP chose good bonuses) while also allowing for racial characteristics to be more prominent.
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Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 17:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
Updated OP with reasons why I think we need a reorganization.
EXASTRA INVICTAS wrote:Absolutely not. CCP did away with race mattering a long time ago. Progress doesn't move backwards, you know.
Progress would only move backwards if this proved to be broken.
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Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 18:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Oso Peresoso wrote:The SP-sink skills being sinks is offset by the fact that they provide useful bonuses. Weaponry should get 1% weapon damage per level or something, but i don't see it as a big deal.
Also, the dropsuit tree as you've reorganized it introduces NEW sp sinks. If you don't actually intend this, and you mean to just have them as a means of organization, that would be more confusing, not less.
They aren't SP sinks since as I stated, they do provide bonuses. For example, a minimitar assault would gain bonuses from being a minmatar suit (the minmatar node), being a medium suit ( the medium node), as well being an assault suit (the assault node). And it wouldn't change SP costs much since the milita node is free and the race nodes would take the place of the dropsuit command node (but actually provide a benefit).
Oso Peresoso wrote:Absolutely not. This is one of the principle rules of Eve and Dust.
Very well, I concede your point and will modify the OP. What about my above idea (that I already added to the OP) of it being something similar to the neural remapping? |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 18:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:You do realize I proposed nearly the exact same thing in my thread. Mine doesn't look quite as nice, but does go into much more depth. Check ot the spreadsheets and tell me what you think. Maybe we can combine our ideas into one.
Nope. I had assumed your thread dealt with integrating EVE lore more into Dust and never opened it.
As I said in your thread though, I'm afraid that by allowing so many bonuses that apply at all times might give rise to a race of super-supersoldiers that no new player would have a chance to fight against.
I also still prefer grouping suits based on race not class. It feels right to me to have similar tech grouped together.
However, your individual bonuses seem reasonable. |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
38
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 21:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
The bonuses and the merc cultural tree. I would probably prefer that new players just get a few free points in their respective race & bloodline (say one point in each?) rather than the race giving them a built-in bonus. Also, the dropsuit bonuses would need to be modified to better suit my racial setup. This would require knowledge of each race's strengths as well as each suit's intended purpose, which I'm still learning. |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
38
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 00:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
I like that each suit gets a bonus that pushes it toward a certain playstyle. It provides variety. If all suits received the exact same suit type bonus, then it would become a question of which has the best ehp/slots. Also, as I said above, I think we should still have two bonuses attached to the suit types. That way we can get the overall playstyle bonus while each has a bonus that helps in its intended role but can still be used else where.
Using the minmatar scout, while the extra melee damage is most useful to a melee focused character, it can still come in handy for any person. When I run out of bullets in my SMG during a CQC fight, I often just bash the enemy in the head rather than dance around trying to reload.
To keep with the minmatar scout as an example, I would recommend moving the overall bonus (profile dampening) to the suit type bonus (the light suit node), but I'm not sure if that would be of use for other light class suits that will be implemented (pilots). |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
38
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 01:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
In the game currently? Only when you wear the suit AFAIK. |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
38
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 02:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Gal, Cal, and Min look like they would work but I think the Amarr one needs to be changed (Even though it is the same type as the Amarr assault currently has). The heat build up reduction is only useful if the Amarr Assault also decided to use Amarr weapons that have heat build up. If they don't, they gain nothing for being an Amarr Assault. Kinda breaks the idea I had earlier of even if you go against the role the bonuses imply you still gain something.
Which is also why I feel the bonuses in the dropsuit tree should only apply to the dropsuit's stats and performance. That way no matter what role you decide to fill, you should gain something from your role and racial role bonus. |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
39
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 03:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
Master Jaraiya wrote:Just a thought here...what we are doing now could spark a revolution in Amarr/Minmatar relations in New Eden  EDIT: OR get us both executed for treason and conspiring with enemy forces 
Lol
<---- This guy is actually the first char I made and haven't used after I realized a heavy sniper wasn't the best idea
The one I actually play on is a caldari |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 17:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
For the overall racial bonus, the bonuses you listed in the cultural tree would work if the cultural tree is not implemented or at least not implemented at the same time as a skill tree reorganization. The numbers do need some modification though. A lot of your bonuses provide greater benefits than proto modules which is probably too much.
Amarr
Armor HP bonus of 3% per level (while in an Amarr suit)
OR
+2% Amarr Racial and Bloodline bonuses
Caldari
Shield HP bonus of 3% per level (while in a Caldari suit)
OR
+2% Caldari Racial and Bloodline bonuses
Gallente
Armor repair bonus of 0.5HP/s per level (while in a Gallente suit) (I hope the current regen model can handle decimal armor values)
OR
+2% Gallente Racial and Bloodline bonuses
Minmatar
Movement & Sprint speed bonus of 2% per level (while in a Minmatar suit)
OR
+2% Minmatar Racial and Bloodline bonuses
This gives the Gallente an armor bonus in between a basic and advanced armor repairer and the Minmatar a speed boost between an advanced and proto kin cat (that one may need tweaking). The Amarr and Caldari bonuses are harder to evaluate but they are lower than the bonuses provided by Dropsuit Armor Upgrades and Dropsuit Shield Upgrades, so hopefully they are fine.
I'm thinking the light suit bonus could be a Max Stamina bonus (that would also benefit pilots when they need to get to a safe place to call for a vehicle or get away from a destroyed one). Not sure what bonuses would suit medium and heavy suits. Perhaps a damage reduction for heavy suits? |
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Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
40
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 18:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:I like this whole thread quite a lot and it's quite similar to my recent thread on generalising the skill tree. However I think that your orders should be done a little differently: For the dropsuits have the frame size, then race, then speciality. For weapons have weapon type, then racial variant (i.e. rifles > rail/scrambler/ion/assault) The race/bloodline learning bonuses are a good idea too (I've been suggesting something like the Eve neural remaps as an alternative to the respec stuff people keep asking for but no one really seems too enthused for it). This whole idea just makes sense and would help people understand the entire skill tree and speccing up process a lot better.
The problem with organizing dropsuits in that fashion is that it would hinder players branching out to different roles. I play as scout, but a scout isn't right for all situations. If I need to switch to a fitting that can take more hits, I'm going to have to skill into medium or heavy, which would mean I would spend more sp to get into another branch.
That weapons ordering also has some problems. Namely, the one off guns. I don't think CCP plans on implementing racial variants of all the races if any for laser rifles, mass drivers, or shotguns. That means you get two choices, don't give the laser rifle a weapon type node (and they lose a bonus because of it) or give it a node that it will be in by itself (kinda wasteful). It also has the branching out problem as players would have to spend more SP to get non-rifle weapons. |
Krom Ganesh
Holdfast Syndicate
Amarr Empire
41
|
Posted - 2013.06.29 23:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:
Totally understand that but it just makes more sense to me to have weapon types and suit types first. The reasoning is that being able to use a particular frame suit would likely mean you're able to use other similar weapons/size suits fairly easily. Being able to use a gallente scout doesn't mean you'd be able to use a gallente heavy easily just because it's the same race. Scrambler pistols are energy weapons but being able to use one doesn't mean you'd be able to switch over to laser rifles easily but you'd probably be pretty good with a bolt pistol.
Even though these suits are different weight classes, they were designed by the same people. There are a lot of details that aren't noticeable since everything is automated. Where are your extra magazines stored? How do I use my arm computer to hack things or bring in vehicles? (the texture and animation might be the same just because they haven't made different assets for the races) There are a variety of details that might differ greatly between the different race's methods in lore but aren't apparent to us since we don't actually have to deal with it. However, these same details would be similar across suits designed by the same race. Same case with guns. |
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