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Free to play without pay to win? Please clearify

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5aEKUXeRJGJ27kCDnDVYak3 Kinsho Swords Caldari State 222	Posted - 2013.06.28 01:46:00 - [1] - Quote Maybe I heard it wrong. Why do people say it is pay to win? I mean, your character's SP directly determines your hp and damage, and you can somewhat buy SP by buying boosters... But it is not technically pay to win, you still have to have skill to play, right? Like, having actual skill of being able to aim well at enemies...
Kane Fyea DUST University Ivy League 460	Posted - 2013.06.28 01:48:00 - [2] - Quote 5aEKUXeRJGJ27kCDnDVYak3 wrote: Maybe I heard it wrong. Why do people say it is pay to win? I mean, your character's SP directly determines your hp and damage, and you can somewhat buy SP by buying boosters... But it is not technically pay to win, you still have to have skill to play, right? Like, having actual skill of being able to aim well at enemies... The only thing that is remotely P2W ATM is fused locus grenades and even those don't get used often. If I die by one I hunt that guy down with my core locus grenades.
N1ck Comeau Pro Hic Immortalis 529	Posted - 2013.06.28 01:54:00 - [3] - Quote This game is rather balanced for the most part about pay 2 win
TheAmazing FlyingPig Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 1203	Posted - 2013.06.28 02:01:00 - [4] - Quote The only reason the pay-to-win argument is thrown around is because fused locus grenades have yet to have an ISK equivalent. As soon as that is added, the whole argument is invalid. It's really whiners looking to whine. This game is probably the best F2P I've ever played in terms of balance between free players and wallet warriors.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1722	Posted - 2013.06.28 02:03:00 - [5] - Quote Pay-to-Win is a term used to describe a specific type of cash shop only item that gives an advantage over the items you can get in-game. It doesn't literally mean "you can win simply by paying money." Dust 514 IS pay-to-win, plain and simple. Which again, doesn't mean paying money = auto win. It means there are items that are superior to in-game items that are only accessible to those who pay real world currency.
BOOOGERTRON BORTZORG Expert Intervention Caldari State 319	Posted - 2013.06.28 02:04:00 - [6] - Quote It is pay 2 win 2 people start the game at the same time and one pays to have boosters the other doesnt. They play exactly the same time and then face off one on one. The guy who paid to have the SP boosted will win every one on one.
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 317	Posted - 2013.06.28 02:06:00 - [7] - Quote TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote: It's really whiners looking to whine. This game is probably the best F2P I've ever played in terms of balance between free players and wallet warriors. Honestly, CCP deserves massive kudos for that. Not many free games make it to the first year without "selling out." They've been getting pretty creative with their AUR gear lately, but even then, nothing has been truly pay to win.
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 317	Posted - 2013.06.28 02:08:00 - [8] - Quote BOOOGERTRON BORTZORG wrote: It is pay 2 win 2 people start the game at the same time and one pays to have boosters the other doesnt. They play exactly the same time and then face off one on one. The guy who paid to have the SP boosted will win every one on one. Ugh. Sorry, but no. Once you hit 8-10 mil SP, older players no longer have an advantage over you. There are only so many skills that can apply to a suit. Every SP after that is just latitude, not depth. That is not pay to win.
TheAmazing FlyingPig Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 1204	Posted - 2013.06.28 02:12:00 - [9] - Quote BOOOGERTRON BORTZORG wrote: It is pay 2 win 2 people start the game at the same time and one pays to have boosters the other doesnt. They play exactly the same time and then face off one on one. The guy who paid to have the SP boosted will win every one on one. Show me the screenshot where someone was killed by SP. For every one screenshot you show me of that, I'll show you thousands of militia weapon kills.
Novawolf McDustingham The514th The Official Mintchip Fanclub 308	Posted - 2013.06.28 02:16:00 - [10] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: BOOOGERTRON BORTZORG wrote: It is pay 2 win 2 people start the game at the same time and one pays to have boosters the other doesnt. They play exactly the same time and then face off one on one. The guy who paid to have the SP boosted will win every one on one. Ugh. Sorry, but no. Once you hit 8-10 mil SP, older players no longer have an advantage over you. There are only so many skills that can apply to a suit. Every SP after that is just latitude, not depth. That is not pay to win. But, they pay and they win. They payed to win. Pay2Win. Now if they amped back up the strafing speed so the game favored actual skill over gear... then maybe.

dustwaffle Ill Omens EoN. 117	Posted - 2013.06.28 02:20:00 - [11] - Quote BOOOGERTRON BORTZORG wrote: It is pay 2 win 2 people start the game at the same time and one pays to have boosters the other doesnt. They play exactly the same time and then face off one on one. The guy who paid to have the SP boosted will win every one on one. LOL
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 4604	Posted - 2013.06.28 02:22:00 - [12] - Quote The only thing pay-to-win is fused locus grenade. The only ISK grenade that comes even close is the prototype Thukker grenades, which are still inferior; the fused ones have like a 6 meter radius while the Thukkers have like 2 meters. Its even more pay-to-win because contact grenades in general are OP since they combine one-hit-kill and instant explosion.
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 317	Posted - 2013.06.28 02:23:00 - [13] - Quote Novawolf McDustingham The514th wrote: But, they pay and they win. They payed to win. Pay2Win. If you want to use the term completely literally with no reference to how the definition is usually used for videogames, sure. Otherwise, no. For it to be Pay2Win, you'd have to be able to buy Balac's ARs with Aurum. Or Proto suits for AUR that have more CPU/PG or more slots. But you can't, so there is no Pay2Win going on. (Well... contact grenades. That is the only example.) A person who does not buy boosters is in no worse a situation than a player who started the game late. You are only at a disadvantage until you've properly skilled out a single role. Which takes 8-10 mil SP. After that, everyone is on even footing.
Poplo Furuya Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 90	Posted - 2013.06.28 02:33:00 - [14] - Quote TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote: BOOOGERTRON BORTZORG wrote: It is pay 2 win 2 people start the game at the same time and one pays to have boosters the other doesnt. They play exactly the same time and then face off one on one. The guy who paid to have the SP boosted will win every one on one. Show me the screenshot where someone was killed by SP. For every one screenshot you show me of that, I'll show you thousands of militia weapon kills. That be a flimsy arse rebuttal. I agree it's not pay to win but until a point is reached, a split of about 8m SP as rough estimate into cores and a specialisation, SP gap makes up a hefty divide between those that have and they who don't. Where this presents something of an issue is new player experience, something that knocks player retention. Matchmaking could be a remedy here. If PC were an actual hook right now, a reason to stick around, the delay before you can be considered 'ready' in terms of materials could daunt; conversely, it could also be incentive to stick around for some, different strokes for different folks. At the logical extreme of PC being the only worthwhile thing to do, though, the 3 month or so gap from blueberry to a black paint job is quite the entry barrier. Extreme examples are a bit divorced from reality but just putting it out there. More of an advocation for lower stakes interaction with the PC scene, one that doesn't tie players down to taking on the second job of district defence. Ideas for that are incomplete as of the moment, though, wrestling with the secondary problems most of them create.
BOOOGERTRON BORTZORG Expert Intervention Caldari State 319	Posted - 2013.06.28 02:34:00 - [15] - Quote Disturbingly Bored wrote: BOOOGERTRON BORTZORG wrote: It is pay 2 win 2 people start the game at the same time and one pays to have boosters the other doesnt. They play exactly the same time and then face off one on one. The guy who paid to have the SP boosted will win every one on one. Ugh. Sorry, but no. Once you hit 8-10 mil SP, older players no longer have an advantage over you. There are only so many skills that can apply to a suit. Every SP after that is just latitude, not depth. That is not pay to win. So what about people below 8 mill vs people with 8 mill?
BOOOGERTRON BORTZORG Expert Intervention Caldari State 319	Posted - 2013.06.28 02:35:00 - [16] - Quote TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote: BOOOGERTRON BORTZORG wrote: It is pay 2 win 2 people start the game at the same time and one pays to have boosters the other doesnt. They play exactly the same time and then face off one on one. The guy who paid to have the SP boosted will win every one on one. Show me the screenshot where someone was killed by SP. For every one screenshot you show me of that, I'll show you thousands of militia weapon kills. Such a moronic response. You should be ashamed.
Disturbingly Bored The Strontium Asylum 317	Posted - 2013.06.28 02:38:00 - [17] - Quote BOOOGERTRON BORTZORG wrote: So what about people below 8 mill vs people with 8 mill? If they're good they're usually fine once they have mid-grade weapons and proper support skills. Unless they were unfortunate enough to want to play as Scout/Heavy/vehicles...
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1723	Posted - 2013.06.28 03:24:00 - [18] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: The only thing pay-to-win is fused locus grenade. The only ISK grenade that comes even close is the prototype Thukker grenades, which are still inferior; the fused ones have like a 6 meter radius while the Thukkers have like 2 meters. Its even more pay-to-win because contact grenades in general are OP since they combine one-hit-kill and instant explosion. Don't forget about the Blood Raider Saga. It's got the same stats as a normal Saga but roughly DOUBLE the shield recharge rate. There is no other LAV in the game with as high of a shield recharge as the BRS.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 2937	Posted - 2013.06.28 04:08:00 - [19] - Quote As soon as we are allowed player-to-player trading in addition to the ISK transfers like you would normally see in Eve Online, then any claim of pay-to-win will be put to rest as item trading will be the best rebuttal there is.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1724	Posted - 2013.06.28 04:17:00 - [20] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: As soon as we are allowed player-to-player trading in addition to the ISK transfers like you would normally see in Eve Online, then any claim of pay-to-win will be put to rest as item trading will be the best rebuttal there is. yes, but unfortunately we don't currently have this capability, nor do we have any idea when we will. Until then, it is pay to win. I do agree though, when we get player-to-player trading, all claims of pay-to-win will be null and void.



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