|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1211
   |
Posted - 2013.06.26 16:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Clear flaws in the OP
- Assumption that kill potential equals game balance is inaccurate.
- Assumption that gear/sp trumps player skill is inaccurate.
- Assumption that gear puts new players "at a huge disadvantage" is inaccurate.
- Assumption that "Logi suits are more powerful than Assaults" is inaccurate.
If the OP would like to dispute these claims we can begin by seeing fittings posted proving that Logi suits are more powerful than Assaults, if you have yet to encounter the rules of the challenge please state this and I will post them.
If an attempt is being made to equate kill potential with game balance please provide an comprehensive post regarding balance theory which supports the concept that in a game with so many diverse roles and growing economic aspects only potential KDR need be considered for proper balance.
To support the notion that gear/sp trumps player skill please post videos of verifiably high skill Mercs in lower meta gear being beaten consistently by players newer to fps (2 years of exp and up need not apply) with better gear.
Anyone can make statements, requests to alter the game should contain externally reproducible, verifiable, and as much as possible non-subjective data.
0.02 ISK
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1211
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 18:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Chinduko wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Clear flaws in the OP
- Assumption that kill potential equals game balance is inaccurate.
- Assumption that gear/sp trumps player skill is inaccurate.
- Assumption that gear puts new players "at a huge disadvantage" is inaccurate.
- Assumption that "Logi suits are more powerful than Assaults" is inaccurate.
If the OP would like to dispute these claims we can begin by seeing fittings posted proving that Logi suits are more powerful than Assaults, if you have yet to encounter the rules of the challenge please state this and I will post them. If an attempt is being made to equate kill potential with game balance please provide an comprehensive post regarding balance theory which supports the concept that in a game with so many diverse roles and growing economic aspects only potential KDR need be considered for proper balance. To support the notion that gear/sp trumps player skill please post videos of verifiably high skill Mercs in lower meta gear being beaten consistently by players newer to fps (2 years of exp and up need not apply) with better gear. Anyone can make statements, requests to alter the game should contain externally reproducible, verifiable, and as much as possible non-subjective data. 0.02 ISK Cross Some players simply have been spoiled by this advantage. Gear doesn't always trump player skill but Highly skilled players with better gear trumps all. While there are always lots of reasons to play, getting kills is generally the most enjoyable and getting killed it generally the opposite. Balance in killing is extremely important. I'm not surprised that players would be afraid to give up such a powerful advantage because it might increase the amount of times they are killed and decrease the number of kills they get. Those highly skilled players would still get a good number of kills and the lesser skilled would still get their deaths. CCP likely won't remove damage and HP enhancements now that they have become a huge part of the game but these enhancements should have never been introduced into the game. But, CCP removed sharpshooter as it was seen as a game changing advantage. Having more armor and damage is much more of an advantage.
I play with mostly free fits and fewer than three of them even use damage mods, that doesn't mean I'm incapable of seeing the flaws in this idea. Nice strawman tho, implying that only the only players who'd fail to support the OP are "spoiled by this advantage" nicely hyperbolic. 
Highly skilled players in a game without the gear buffs will still trump all (aside from being blobbed by a coordinated group or just bad luck  ).
Your assumption that everyone plays for kills and that's the most enjoyable play style is purely subjective. That may be true for you or even the people you play with most consistantly but it is not universal nor should mechanics be based around it. Even if it were universal that still does not make it proper balance mechanically. While yes balance in killing is a very important aspect of balance it is not equal to game balance itself, nor have you explained anything about how simply gutting mods out of the game would maintain or improve overall balance.
You've still failed to address any of the challenges I put forth in the post you quoted nor provide externally reproducible, verifiable, or non-subjective data.
You can make any number of statements you like but while they remain unsupported by reproducible data they remain at best subjective/anecdotal.
0.02 ISK
Cross
|
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1213
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 20:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Chinduko not only are you oversimplifying you're also still failing to provide actual non-subjective data.
Stating what people do or don't like doesn't equate to your suggestion being good balance, or an improvement over the present iteration of the game.
It's like talking about "KDR". KDR as a state is terrible. It doesn't account for clone revives, it doesn't account for assists, it doesn't account for ISK lost, it doesn't account for ISK destroyed it doesn't account for the weight of vehicle kills, it doesn't account for repairs given. It also fails to represent true squad coordination or the tactical value of actions like suppression, hacking, uplinks, et al.
Speed mods effect survival and slaying. So do sensor mods. So do hacking mods for that matter as they save you time and acquire on field assets for use both giving more damage, and HP while also moving matches closer to victory.
You can say 'it's all about killing' till you're blue in the face but that it too vague to mean anything within context. Details are required to make statements meaningful and independently reproducible data is required to make details substantive.
CCP is updating dropships to provide a self sustaining place for their role as transports. Now yes getting your guys to the right spot faster does increase their chances of getting kills and in theory lowers the overall chance of losing friendly clones but that doesn't mean that the transport pilot is focused on kills either for enjoyment or for successful execution of their role. This is true throughout the game, there are slayers sure and they'll be the vanguard but they're not the only roles and they shouldn't be. Also CCP is wise enough not to hard lock people into roles so those who enjoy a mix can have that mix open to them.
You've still yet to demonstrate (not state, demonstrate with data) how your proposed changes would improve the game.
You've provided neither data nor theory as to why those specific mods have a more drastic impact on game balance or even combat than other mods and skills in game.
You've provided no support for the idea that removal is superior to alteration of current stats or addition of new mods.
You've not directly answered any of the challenges in my first post.
What you have done is continue with strawman and hyperbole. Let me reiterate something before you once again trot out comments about "fear" and "giving up advantages". I run ~90% free fits. The other 10% for the record I use during PC matches supporting my corps allies so not only is it up against pure proto but it's not used against new players in pubs, in both cases this means no disparity is present. So now that I've explained how your "fear" and "advantage" posts are meaningless in my case can we please move on to you providing actual data and direct responses to my posts?
~Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1215
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 22:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Chinduko wrote:
[sic]
We as gamers want the advantage of more damage and HP and this is why I expected a huge backlash. It's not something players want to easily give up.
[sic]
Reaction is not equal to response. You've been posting responses with my words quoted while not actually replying to the content.
I've already pointed out how your claims of defending an "advantage" don't apply to my context and yet you fail to address this.
You continue to use diversionary and hyperbolic phrasing and concepts the latest of which is now implying that by repeating calling upon you to address my actual points I am somehow seeking "special attention of some kind. That could only be true if you were refusing to address the substance of all posts which disagree with you.... I'll let the record show which one
As long as you persist in avoiding all the quite valid critiques of your idea which have been put forth and trying to hide that evasiveness behind inflammatory or emotionally charged rhetoric I will continue to repeat that you've failed to address my points and that your fundamental idea is fatally flawed.
But do feel free to prove me wrong by providing actual data, that is of course assuming there is any such data to be provided at all.
0.02 ISK
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1217
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 02:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Chinduko wrote:Do you believe that it is not our nature to want to be better or improve ourselves, including in games? I don't know many that don't like winning or being better. Having higher damage and hp improves our killing and decreases our dying. Being able to kill while not dying increases our winning. And, this puts a huge disadvantage to new players with low SP who won't likely stay, which we see from the low player count. I don't know any simpler way of explaining this. I truly don't.
Making statements about the basic nature of people isn't the same as making advised or actionable suggestions regarding game balance. As far as I can tell it is not relevant whether it is or is not 'in our nature to want to be better'. The confirmation or denial of that concept does not directly pertain to mechanical balance within Dust 514. You have not shown how gear or skills provide a "huge" disparity, you have not nailed down specific examples of such a disparity nor have you refuted counterpoints about the concept. You have not provided your own concept for proper game balance to be considered in place of the current one and you have further still failed to provide hard data explaining why these mods and not others and/or how the removal of these mods would/would not in your estimation effect the rest of game balance.
Let alone touching on the in game economic implications of such a suggestion.
I understand what you are saying regarding the human drive to seek advantage, I'm saying you have yet to demonstrate any specific and relevant link between general human motivations and actual game balance within this game.
Quote:
Unimportantly noting but since you brought it up, a reaction and response are the same thing. You can even use them in the same sentence and keep the exact same meaning. He reacted with disdain. He responded with disdain. They are the same . Many posts have disagreed with me as was expected but their concerns are as valid as yours, however they don't seem to have the same overly high sense of self worth you give yourself. One person said my idea sucks. I see this as valid as any other. Other people say they feel they earned the SP to put into damage and hp to beat new players. Read some of the posts and you'll find that some players here do state that they enjoy the advantage of higher SP such as earning the SP to beat new players.
You're still stuck on hyperbole and dabbling in ad hominem. As much as you're trying to make this somehow otherwise this isn't about me or you it's about concepts and vetting them prior to sanctioning their implementation.
I've raised concerns over sighted flaws in the proposal of the OP, those concerns have not be addressed. It's really that simple and there's no need to try and drag some theoretical ego trip into it.
Quote:
Let's say I'm wrong and killing and dying isn't as important as I suggest. Then, in that case, it shouldn't be a big issue to remove the damage and hp enhancements, if getting kills and not dying are as unimportant you suggest.
The concerns of players is that they don't want to lose their advantage and the fear they would lose their ability to individualize their soldier. I say they would lose the advantage in pub stomping but all players would have a better chance for more even competition. Skill and team coordination will still overcome. Players will also not lose their ability to individualize soldiers since there are a great many more skills that SP can be applied to.
It's also fairly amusing they way you use designer language (as a professor of mine called it) in order to attempt to give oneself more credit or flash. I understand what you're saying, it's just amusing and it's another reason I feel you have a self inflated sense of our own worth. The rest of us use normal language in this non academic setting. I've learned that it's better to speak plainly when plain language is normally used. I've done this before as well but I don't anymore as I don't want to seem smug.
Even more paragraphs focusing on attempts to make this about me or ego rather than the actual ideas in question?
I write the way I talk and I talk the way those around me throughout my upbringing and most of my life have talked. If my method of speech is somehow upsetting to you I don't know what to say aside from that it's not my intent to upset you. I do not know you nor is your emotional response, or mine, something that I consider relevant to the content of this thread.
That being said allow me to attempt a rephrase you that may find more acceptable.
Please answer my critiques directly and specifically.
Please do so with as much detail as you are able.
Please make it clear which issue you are addressing and do not overlap them.
Please do this so that other posters in this thread can evaluate both critique and reply side by side and come to their own conclusions.
I do not see how any of these requests are unreasonable.
0.02 ISK
Cross
|
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1218
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 03:29:00 -
[6] - Quote
Chinduko wrote:Cross Atu wrote:[quote=Chinduko] Quote:
Let's say I'm wrong and killing and dying isn't as important as I suggest. Then, in that case, it shouldn't be a big issue to remove the damage and hp enhancements, if getting kills and not dying are as unimportant you suggest.
The concerns of players is that they don't want to lose their advantage and the fear they would lose their ability to individualize their soldier. I say they would lose the advantage in pub stomping but all players would have a better chance for more even competition. Skill and team coordination will still overcome. Players will also not lose their ability to individualize soldiers since there are a great many more skills that SP can be applied to.
It's also fairly amusing they way you use designer language (as a professor of mine called it) in order to attempt to give oneself more credit or flash. I understand what you're saying, it's just amusing and it's another reason I feel you have a self inflated sense of our own worth. The rest of us use normal language in this non academic setting. I've learned that it's better to speak plainly when plain language is normally used. I've done this before as well but I don't anymore as I don't want to seem smug.
Even more paragraphs focusing on attempts to make this about me or ego rather than the actual ideas in question? I write the way I talk and I talk the way those around me throughout my upbringing and most of my life have talked. If my method of speech is somehow upsetting to you I don't know what to say aside from that it's not my intent to upset you. I do not know you nor is your emotional response, or mine, something that I consider relevant to the content of this thread. That being said allow me to attempt a rephrase you that may find more acceptable. Please answer my critiques directly and specifically.
Please do so with as much detail as you are able.
Please make it clear which issue you are addressing and do not overlap them.
Please do this so that other posters in this thread can evaluate both critique and reply side by side and come to their own conclusions.I do not see how any of these requests are unreasonable. 0.02 ISK Cross I don't see how you cannot understand that a player with higher SP and thus having more damage and hp output through skills does not have a huge advantage over new players that do not have this advantage.
Because I run free fits in pub matches as a matter of course and do not see a 'huge disadvantage' while doing so.
I've tested this in prior builds by running proto gear to see if it made a world of difference, it did not.
I have fought against players in Proto gear as recently as today while deployed in a free fit and prevailed. I've also fought them and lost. I found no drastic disparity, the fights were overall determined by positioning, squad support or who made the first mistake, gear can have an impact but it's not a deterministic one.
In prior builds CCP had events in which they seeded players with max skills and proto and/or officer gear. On several occasions I was able to take out groups of these players while running in my free fit. When there were 4-5 I'd die roughly half the time while 1-2 of them remained standing. All in all I consider that a win but I'm not the best gun game guy.
Which brings me to my next point, it's very valid at this point to consider that my personal experiences are only one example and may be an outlier/not an accurate representation. In light of this I will provide context.
Prior to dust I have only played one FPS with any frequency, that game was UT2004 and as the name suggests it's been quite a few years since its release. Prior to dust I have roughly 8 years of rust on my prior mid range FPS gun game.
Taking that into account it seems reasonable that if I can overcome multiple hostiles with best skill levels and gear that whatever advantage those things are providing it is not earth shattering in scope.
Quote: It seems very clear to me and I cannot be more concise that the newer player who is at this disadvantage is not likely to enjoy their lack of competitive capability. I cannot understand how you don't understand that those new players are less likely to stay with Dust being at this disadvantage. I see you don't understand how human behavior is important but it is. In general, humans avoid discomfort or pain, be it emotional or physical. Some may actually "tough it out" with they have fewer options and some people may simply have masochist personalities but people don't like discomfort. This disadvantage is much more likely to be discomforting than comforting.
I cannot be more clear. If you don't understand, or willfully disagree, there is nothing more I can do to help you understand.
I'll rephrase my prior regarding human behavior.
You have yet to show how the advantage/disadvantage is directly linked to the mods in question or how those mods are more linked to it than all the mods you're not proposing be removed. You've not explained why removal would be a better option than altering those mods or adding others. You've not explained why changing mods or fittings is a better solution than possible alternatives like matchmaking, a more robust new player experience, better documentation, etc.
So while yes it's obvious that humans do seem to avoid discomfort on average that does not directly support the suggestions of your OP and despite my prior attempts to draw your attention to this you've still yet to show why your suggested change is the best solution for your stated problem.
All of that aside any change has pros and cons and you've not address, or for the most part really acknowledged, the cons to balance them against the gains your suggestion is meant to offer. Just because a change has some positives doesn't mean it's on balance a gain.
|
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1220
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 06:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
Chinduko wrote:
As far as other options, you haven't read other posts where I agreed with others in that a militia/standard only match would be great. I won't go in that. You can read it if you want In this thread. It's not some secret how having greater damage output and HP compared to new players is an advantage. How do you not see that. You are either genuinely not understanding, or choosing to blindly ignore the advantage. Being able to kill someone faster is an advantage and being able to absorb damage is an advantage. This needs no further explanation. I don't like using the phrase common sense, but I don't know any other way to put it. This isn't information that requires a well thought out dissertation and defense. This is straight forward information. Do you disagree that having more damage output and HP is an advantage for the higher SP players?
If you ever saw "Kung Pow: Enter the fist" The protagonist was taught that to win, he had to bleed. He was in essence taught how to win backwards. With that, do you truly believe that it's an advantage for higher SP players to have less damage output and HP? That's what I'm getting from you. I personally prefer more damage output and HP but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on what is more advantageous. If you truly believe that having less damage output and hp is an advantage or that having more damage output and HP is a disadvantage, then, one; you're either not as intelligent or educated as I might have guessed, , but more so I'd think; you're simply being disagreeable or arguing just to argue. Either way, it's not flattering.
You don't have to agree that removing the mods is a good idea but to say that a higher damage output and HP is not an advantage is suspicious.
To quote the part of my post that you omitted from your prior quotation of me
Cross Atu wrote:Because I run free fits in pub matches as a matter of course and do not see a 'huge disadvantage' while doing so.
I've tested this in prior builds by running proto gear to see if it made a world of difference, it did not.
I have fought against players in Proto gear as recently as today while deployed in a free fit and prevailed. I've also fought them and lost. I found no drastic disparity, the fights were overall determined by positioning, squad support or who made the first mistake, gear can have an impact but it's not a deterministic one.
In prior builds CCP had events in which they seeded players with max skills and proto and/or officer gear. On several occasions I was able to take out groups of these players while running in my free fit. When there were 4-5 I'd die roughly half the time while 1-2 of them remained standing. All in all I consider that a win but I'm not the best gun game guy.
Which brings me to my next point, it's very valid at this point to consider that my personal experiences are only one example and may be an outlier/not an accurate representation. In light of this I will provide context.
Prior to dust I have only played one FPS with any frequency, that game was UT2004 and as the name suggests it's been quite a few years since its release. Prior to dust I have roughly 8 years of rust on my prior mid range FPS gun game.
Taking that into account it seems reasonable that if I can overcome multiple hostiles with best skill levels and gear that whatever advantage those things are providing it is not earth shattering in scope.
At no time have I said the current system/mods provide no advantage. What I have done is question the validity and necessity of removal as a solution and request that you provide specific mechanical reasons for this rather than large sweeping statements. I've also questioned why this specific alteration is better than other options and why the mods you've selected are important to remove but others are not, as well as how balance would function within the game if your proposal were followed. You've provided no details regarding any of that, instead you keep trying to make this somehow a personal thing about you and I rather than about the issues.
I've asked you to specifically address the flaws I pointed out and label the address so it's clear what aspect your responding to. Rather than doing so indite my intelligence, and intentions tossing about more sensationalized phrasing such as "suspicious" and "unflattering" both directed at me rather than in response to my points. Doing so while falsely attributing to me stances I've never held.
What you're doing
What you are not doing is actually discussing the merits, flaws or mechanics of the idea you're pushing for.
I've asked you a series of very reasonable questions none of which have been specifically or directly addressed.
I'd still love to see your data, please explain in specific step by step manner how and why your proposal is required and superior to other alternatives.
I do not see asking for step by step details as unreasonable in light of the sweeping changes you propose.
0.02 ISK
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1220
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 06:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Oh and if you feel you've already addressed any of this in a prior post which I may have missed feel free to link me that post and I'll respond directly, just please label which aspects the post is intended to address. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1220
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 07:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Chinduko wrote:Cross Atu wrote:Oh and if you feel you've already addressed any of this in a prior post which I may have missed feel free to link me that post and I'll respond directly, just please label which aspects the post is intended to address. I've addressed that fact that newer players are a disadvantage to higher SP players but you I get the idea that you want some long wall of text to show that the approx. 900 total HP a medium proto suit of the high SP player is not advantageous compared to a 360 hp medium suit a newer player starts out with. The same goes for the the 40 or more % damage boost that higher SP suits can have compared to newer players. Again, this is obvious to me as a huge advantage for higher SP players. Period. I cannot become more clear with this. This is a crystal clear as it gets. If you cannot see the advantage, then you are ignoring it. And, I have to question your thought process and consider it suspicious when the advantage is slapping you in the face but you're numb to it's touch. Higher SP players have a huge advantage over newer players with their higher damage output and HP. This means that the system, even if working as expected, is flawed. We're not in research class on these forums, and we're not writing a dissertation. Gamers do not need to write a paper to see the flaws or to spell out. This isn't some scientific theory that requires that. This is straight forward information. Some gamers do write out walls of text trying to be overly scientific and it shows nothing because what's on paper isn't always how it works in the game. Ask me again and I will respond the same because this is as clear as it gets. And, it's very clear. I can't help that you won't understand this. At this point, I really do have to become suspicious. Do you truly not understand or purposely not acknowledge your understanding. Other players have a strong stance against my idea, however, they still understand what I'm saying.
I've been attempting to give you the chance to explain the details and relevance of your proposal rather than dismissing it out of hand. I've also provided, more than once, first hand experience which contradicts your assessment that this is a "huge" effect or the primary defining characteristic in a conflict between players, and you've yet to address any of that.
I am not missing the intent of what you are saying, you are stating that mods which provide HP or dps buffs a gap between new players and vets and that said gap is too large to be viable.
I will respond simply to that premise. There is no "huge" advantage. Advantage? Yes. "Huge advantage" No.
It's not game braking or insurmountable, I've tested it first hand and none of my testing supports your claims.
Further the testing and play experience of the other Mercs I've played and conversed with from closed beta to present supports the conclusion that player skill trumps the combined effect of character skill and gear.
On average if two players of equal skill 1v1 the player with better gear will win, otherwise the player with better personal skill will win. Outside of a 1v1 the factors leading to victory are even less gear based.
As stated in my very first postCross Atu wrote:Clear flaws in the OP
- Assumption that kill potential equals game balance is inaccurate.
- Assumption that gear/sp trumps player skill is inaccurate.
- Assumption that gear puts new players "at a huge disadvantage" is inaccurate.
- Assumption that "Logi suits are more powerful than Assaults" is inaccurate.
These flaws are not only still persistent in your posts but you've never bothered to directly address anyone them. Opting instead to make negative comments about me personally regarding both my capacities and motives.
Your concept is flawed, your proposal is broken, and you're not even trying to support it within the context of the specific criticisms raised about it. Taking personal swipes at posters who don't agree with you does not address or invalidate the flaws which have been highlighted in your OP. I would still welcome an actual address to the specific points I've raised but I must admit it's beginning to seem that outcome is rather unlikely.
0.02 ISK
Cross
|
|
|
| |
|