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Django Quik
R.I.f.t
723
|
Posted - 2013.06.23 15:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
There's been a hell of a lot of posters lately demanding respecs for a variety of reasons but the only one that really holds any traction is those stating that full racial variants aren't available yet. Whilst I still don't think this is a suitable reason to give respecs when that stuff does come out, I think it is symptomatic of the skill tree being too specialised too early.
Take for example the rifles (since that's the only weapon we have more than one racial variant of) - we currently have two separate skills for the Gallente Assault Rifle and Amarr Scrambler Rifle that give access to anything from basic level and up. The way I think it should be is that there should be a general 'Rifle Operation' skill, which gives access to all variants of all races' rifles up to level 3 and has it's own core skills sub-tree with things like sharpshooter and ammo capacity that are accessed at Rifle Op level 5.
In order to access racial variants of rifles beyond level 3, you have to skill into the Rifle Operations racial sub-trees, which also have their own proficiency sub-trees with speciality skills attached. Lvl 1 of racial variants opens up the lvl 4 rifles for that race and lvl 3 opens proto ones, then lvl 5 for officer weapons and the proficiency skills.
This system would allow people to spec into rifles if that's the type of weapon they like but when a missing racial variant is brought in, people wouldn't need a respec to change from using a Gallente AR to using a Caldari Rail Rifle. These core skills would mean that people wouldn't feel like they're wasting SP with weapons they don't want to be using in the long run.
The same rings true for vehicles and suits - general non-race specific frame skills (light, med, heavy) give access to adv dropsuits of all races, then you can specialise into your chosen race and then further specialise into available roles (eg. logi, assault).
I hope this all makes sense to everyone - please ask if any questions and let me know any alterations or suggestions you might have. Would anyone object to this system? Would you prefer it to the current skill tree set-up? |
darkiller240
INGLORIOUS-INQUISITION
13
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Posted - 2013.06.23 15:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
+1 |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
727
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Posted - 2013.06.23 21:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
I don't really know the Eve skill tree system (having never played) but I believe it is similar to what I've described above - can anyone confirm or let me know what the Eve tree really is like and how it compares to our current system? |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
292
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Posted - 2013.06.23 22:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
What about simply making the racial bonusus a passive that you have for being that particular race. Of course this would have to be explained in character creation.
Then moving the "Class Basic Frames" between Dropsuits Command and the specific Roles. So the tree would look like this:
Dropsuit Command +__% to racial bonus per level ================= Light Basic Frames Req. lvl 1 Dropsuit Command; unlocks standard at lvl 1 advanced at lvl 3 proto at lvl 5 (for all Races) Medium Basic Frames Req. lvl 3 Dropsuit Command; unlocks standard at lvl 1 advanced at lvl 3 proto at lvl 5 (for all races) Heavy Basic Frames Req. lvl 5 Dropsuit Command; unlocks standard at lvl 1 advanced at lvl 3 proto at lvl 5 (for all races) ====================================================================================================== From here break up the Roles and apply Role Bonuses: Scout Req. lvl 3 Light Basic Frames; unlocks standard at lvl 1 advanced at lvl 3 proto at oblong 5 Pilot Req. lvl 3 Light Basic Frames; unlocks standard at lvl 1 advanced at lvl 3 proto at lvl 5 ================================================================================ Assault Req. lvl 3 Medium Basic Frames; unlocks standard at lvl 1 advanced at lvl 3 proto at lvl 5 Logistics Req. lvl 3 Medium Basic Frames; unlocks standard at lvl 1 advanced at lvl 3 proto at lvl 5 ================================================================================ Sentinel Req. lvl 3 Heavy Basic Frames; unlocks standard at lvl 1 advanced at lvl 3 proto at lvl 5 Commando Req. lvl 3 Heavy Basic Frames; unlocks standard at lvl 1 advanced at lvl 3 proto at lvl 5
They could also make all suits give a secondary bonus to its own race, giving incentive for players to use dropsuits corresponding to the race they chose. For instance: Minmatar Dropsuits: -__% Stamina Usage to Minmatar Amarr Dropsuits: -__% Heat Build Up to Amarr Caldari Dropsuits: -__% Dropsuits Shield Recharge Delay for Caldari Gallente Dropsuits: -__% Damage to Armor for Gallente |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
731
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Posted - 2013.06.24 11:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jeez, how did this end up on page 3 already? 2 replies and 2 likes? Is that it? No more feedback on this idea? Is everyone really happy with the shape of the current skill tree? |
Twomanchew
Goose Bite
1
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Posted - 2013.06.25 02:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Jeez, how did this end up on page 3 already? 2 replies and 2 likes? Is that it? No more feedback on this idea? Is everyone really happy with the shape of the current skill tree? No I am not ok with the current shape of the skill tree. Also I agree with you entirely. Plus I also been saying in game and on the forums that because the racial core of the game is not finished yet. I believe when it finally is implemented that there should be a respec. I know the game will never be finished. But the core racial dropsuits and weapons are not all in the game yet, so I think there should be one last respec for everyone. After that the game will continue evolving and many more things added to it that we will work and save are skill points to put into.
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Wojciak
Soldiers Of One Network Orion Empire
39
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Posted - 2013.06.25 02:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
We have three rifles but two Assault rifles, The AR is (should be called) the blaster rifle, then the other AR is he scrambler Rifle, finally we have the laser rifle. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
744
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Posted - 2013.06.25 11:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
Wojciak wrote:We have three rifles but two Assault rifles, The AR is (should be called) the blaster rifle, then the other AR is he scrambler Rifle, finally we have the laser rifle. True but the LASER rifle doesn't fall into the same category because the amarr rifle is the scrambler. I actually can't imagine any racial variations on LASER rifles. |
pegasis prime
The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries DARKSTAR ARMY
323
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 11:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Wojciak wrote:We have three rifles but two Assault rifles, The AR is (should be called) the blaster rifle, then the other AR is he scrambler Rifle, finally we have the laser rifle. True but the LASER rifle doesn't fall into the same category because the amarr rifle is the scrambler. I actually can't imagine any racial variations on LASER rifles.
Caldari anti personell micro rocket launcher would full fill the caldari side of the racial speciality wepon I.e. ammar-lazer rifle minimitar - mass driver gallente - yet to come. (Ideas?) As all races will be given their own varient of the ar there will be a gallente and caldari racial special wepons to come. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
744
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 11:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
pegasis prime wrote:Django Quik wrote:Wojciak wrote:We have three rifles but two Assault rifles, The AR is (should be called) the blaster rifle, then the other AR is he scrambler Rifle, finally we have the laser rifle. True but the LASER rifle doesn't fall into the same category because the amarr rifle is the scrambler. I actually can't imagine any racial variations on LASER rifles. Caldari anti personell micro rocket launcher would full fill the caldari side of the racial speciality wepon I.e. ammar-lazer rifle minimitar - mass driver gallente - yet to come. (Ideas?) As all races will be given their own varient of the ar there will be a gallente and caldari racial special wepons to come. Ah good point. Hmm maybe the gallente speciality weapon is supposed to be the plasma cannon? |
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pegasis prime
The Shadow Cavalry Mercenaries DARKSTAR ARMY
323
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Posted - 2013.06.25 11:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:pegasis prime wrote:Django Quik wrote:Wojciak wrote:We have three rifles but two Assault rifles, The AR is (should be called) the blaster rifle, then the other AR is he scrambler Rifle, finally we have the laser rifle. True but the LASER rifle doesn't fall into the same category because the amarr rifle is the scrambler. I actually can't imagine any racial variations on LASER rifles. Caldari anti personell micro rocket launcher would full fill the caldari side of the racial speciality wepon I.e. ammar-lazer rifle minimitar - mass driver gallente - yet to come. (Ideas?) As all races will be given their own varient of the ar there will be a gallente and caldari racial special wepons to come. Ah good point. Hmm maybe the gallente speciality weapon is supposed to be the plasma cannon?
No I think thats the galante light av weppon , caldari have the swarm. Expect minimitar and ammar light av wepons . Also still to get caldari heavy anti infantry wepon we have forge for av Still to get minimitar heavy av wepon we have hmg Still to get any galante or ammar heavy wepons. I cant wait. |
Vaux Karn
The Mercenary Collective
19
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 12:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
-1
If anything there just need to ne militia variants of all weapons, equipment and modules so that people can test drive nefore they buy. That goes for every gun that doesn't have one now...flaylock, HMG, scrambler rifle, nova knife, laser rifle, remote explosives, etc. This would eliminate most of the (somewhat legitimate) cries for respecs and could add more variety and flavor to characters later on down the road by giving starter fits their race's gear. That aside though, we do need the ability to try out the stuff we are expected to invest sp into. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
744
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 13:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Vaux Karn wrote:-1
If anything there just need to ne militia variants of all weapons, equipment and modules so that people can test drive nefore they buy. That goes for every gun that doesn't have one now...flaylock, HMG, scrambler rifle, nova knife, laser rifle, remote explosives, etc. This would eliminate most of the (somewhat legitimate) cries for respecs and could add more variety and flavor to characters later on down the road by giving starter fits their race's gear. That aside though, we do need the ability to try out the stuff we are expected to invest sp into. I agree with all of what you've said but see no reason in your statements that would go against my suggestion being implemented as well as those things. |
Vell0cet
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2013.06.25 13:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
I would like to see more depth in the skill trees as well for a couple of reasons. One is that it will encourage more specialization so you have more variety on the battlefield and roles, which create tactical interest and broader strategies for corps. It also makes it easy for people to get into a weapon quickly with the biggest bonuses coming fast and early while the ones deep in the tree that require the massive SP investments have much smaller bonuses. This helps balance the newer players getting to a relatively competitive place somewhat quickly, but still providing an edge to players who've deeply specialized.
I do disagree with your proposed method of organizing the tree. In EVE, it's based on weapon type. In other words, It could be organized by Lasers, Projectiles, Blasters/Rails, and Missiles, and then further specialize within those: So after getting Lasers to 3 it would unlock Scrambler Rifles, and Laser Rifles, and the (currently nonexistent) Laser-based sniper rifle. I think this approach would produce more variety on the battlefield than having specializations like Assault rifle (with the racial sub-specialties to follow). Under the system you're proposing everyone will use the variant of the Assault Rifle that's the current FotM since it's a trivial train, whereas if you've invested millions of skillpoints in hypothetical skills like "Laser heat buildup reduction 5" then jumping over to the rocket-based assault rifle that becomes the current FotM won't be worth the SP. Now instead of 10/16 players running the rocket AR, you've got 5/10 running that and you're still using your Scrambler Rifle which is still excellent and you're a lot more effective on the battlefield than running a gimped fitted FotM build.
Variety is the key to keeping things interesting. I think it's why they went this direction with EVE and it seems to work well for them. |
Vaux Karn
The Mercenary Collective
19
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 13:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
Django Quik wrote:Vaux Karn wrote:-1
If anything there just need to ne militia variants of all weapons, equipment and modules so that people can test drive nefore they buy. That goes for every gun that doesn't have one now...flaylock, HMG, scrambler rifle, nova knife, laser rifle, remote explosives, etc. This would eliminate most of the (somewhat legitimate) cries for respecs and could add more variety and flavor to characters later on down the road by giving starter fits their race's gear. That aside though, we do need the ability to try out the stuff we are expected to invest sp into. I agree with all of what you've said but see no reason in your statements that would go against my suggestion being implemented as well as those things.
There are multiple problems with generalizing in this game. First, it is a game of specializations, it would disrupt the balance and progression of skills, not so much in the short term but in the long term. Second, it creates a crutch, players get used to it and become dependent on it, which becomes a damaging mechanic later on down the road. Third, allowing access to 4 (when all variants become available) advanced weapons is way too much and devalues all future skill investments (which at the sp cost are already of questionable value to many) to further specialize. Fourth, it doesn't fit lore or theme of the game, (I know most don't give a **** about it but none the less) which is different technologies which do not necessarily function the aame way for the different races and consequences for every decision. Fifth, the slippery slope, if this is done, in (to be very generous to the crying I have seen on these forums) it will only be six months before the band wagon starts rolling again to do the same for dropsuits, prototype weapons, categories of modules (ex. shield, armor, biotics), vehicles, and everything else to be lumped into single skills. That is why I say militia variants of all gear are to only reasonable solution. Test drive before you buy, it improves car sales and it can improve Dust. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
745
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 15:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:I would like to see more depth in the skill trees as well for a couple of reasons. One is that it will encourage more specialization so you have more variety on the battlefield and roles, which create tactical interest and broader strategies for corps. It also makes it easy for people to get into a weapon quickly with the biggest bonuses coming fast and early while the ones deep in the tree that require the massive SP investments have much smaller bonuses. This helps balance the newer players getting to a relatively competitive place somewhat quickly, but still providing an edge to players who've deeply specialized.
I do disagree with your proposed method of organizing the tree. In EVE, it's based on weapon type. In other words, It could be organized by Lasers, Projectiles, Blasters/Rails, and Missiles, and then further specialize within those: So after getting Lasers to 3 it would unlock Scrambler Rifles, and Laser Rifles, and the (currently nonexistent) Laser-based sniper rifle. I think this approach would produce more variety on the battlefield than having specializations like Assault rifle (with the racial sub-specialties to follow). Under the system you're proposing everyone will use the variant of the Assault Rifle that's the current FotM since it's a trivial train, whereas if you've invested millions of skillpoints in hypothetical skills like "Laser heat buildup reduction 5" then jumping over to the rocket-based assault rifle that becomes the current FotM won't be worth the SP. Now instead of 10/16 players running the rocket AR, you've got 5/10 running that and you're still using your Scrambler Rifle which is still excellent and you're a lot more effective on the battlefield than running a gimped fitted FotM build. This will be a much more interesting match to play because you may have certain advantages over the Caldari AR and you'll try to fight in ways that maximize those advantages, while they try to do the same thing.
Variety is the key to keeping things interesting. I think it's why they went this direction with EVE and it seems to work well for them. I don't at all disagree with you on any of what you've said really apart from the FOTM comment - You'd still need to invest large amount of SP to be able to get meta 4 and above, so just switching from proto ARs to proto SCRs would not be quick and easy. However, if you use ARs and wanted to see what it could be like using a SCR beyond the militia, you could. Also, when the other races' get their rifles, you'll be able to use them without having to start from absolute scratch. Also, you'd still have deeper skills once you specialise into each racial variant of a weapon type that would only affect that racial type, like ARs might have a recoil handling skill whereas scramblers would have a heat build up skill.
My intention was that this be somewhat similar to the Eve style skill tree that you describe but having it divided by e.g. LASERs, projectiles, etc. would not solve the current issues of people having to save SP for the missing racial variants.
Also, keep in mind my suggestion is not just for weapons but also dropsuits and vehicles. In my mind it makes sense that if you're good at handling ARs, you'd be at least able to handle a SCR to an advanced level and if you run a cal assault, you'd probably be able to handle a Gal assault to advanced level too. |
Django Quik
R.I.f.t
748
|
Posted - 2013.06.25 15:18:00 -
[17] - Quote
Vaux Karn wrote:Django Quik wrote:Vaux Karn wrote:-1
If anything there just need to ne militia variants of all weapons, equipment and modules so that people can test drive nefore they buy. That goes for every gun that doesn't have one now...flaylock, HMG, scrambler rifle, nova knife, laser rifle, remote explosives, etc. This would eliminate most of the (somewhat legitimate) cries for respecs and could add more variety and flavor to characters later on down the road by giving starter fits their race's gear. That aside though, we do need the ability to try out the stuff we are expected to invest sp into. I agree with all of what you've said but see no reason in your statements that would go against my suggestion being implemented as well as those things. There are multiple problems with generalizing in this game. First, it is a game of specializations, it would disrupt the balance and progression of skills, not so much in the short term but in the long term. Second, it creates a crutch, players get used to it and become dependent on it, which becomes a damaging mechanic later on down the road. Third, allowing access to 4 (when all variants become available) advanced weapons is way too much and devalues all future skill investments (which at the sp cost are already of questionable value to many) to further specialize. Fourth, it doesn't fit lore or theme of the game, (I know most don't give a **** about it but none the less) which is different technologies which do not necessarily function the aame way for the different races and consequences for every decision. Fifth, the slippery slope, if this is done, in (to be very generous to the crying I have seen on these forums) it will only be six months before the band wagon starts rolling again to do the same for dropsuits, prototype weapons, categories of modules (ex. shield, armor, biotics), vehicles, and everything else to be lumped into single skills. That is why I say militia variants of all gear are to only reasonable solution. Test drive before you buy, it improves car sales and it can improve Dust. Yes militia versions of everything are an absolute necessity. Agree 100% with that. That said, they do need to be toned down greatly from the STD versions and not just have worse fitting requirements.
To address the crux of your issue though, the generalising would only happen at the very lowest levels and specialising would still viable and be a much stronger option than stopping at lvl 3 and only using advanced stuff. For example, if you're using the SCR, you'd be able to use the GEK AR but not the duvolle, which everyone knows is vastly superior. I'm also open to the idea of reducing the generalisation level to lvl 2 gear but the principle of the idea remains.
I don't think people would use it as a crutch. Players would only make use of it if their fav weapon got nerfed or they got bored with it but they'd still have to put a lot of SP into their new choice if they actually wanted to use the decent levels and get any skill bonuses for it.
I don't think 4 weapons per weapon type is too much but if it's considered that advanced level is too high, the level can be reduced to 2 instead of 3. The whole suggestion is open to change.
As for lore, like I mentioned in my previous post, it makes sense - SCRs aren't that different to ARs; they're still held the same way, still the same shape. At a basic level, I see no reason why a merc trained in a rifle that shoots plasma rounds wouldn't be capable of wielding a rifle that shoots LASER pulses.
Finally, I don't think this would lead to any slippery slope. Generalising would only be applied to racial variants at the basic level. It wouldn't be lumping similar other things into the same skills, i.e. modules and equipment (though nanohives and injectors currently share a skill already!). I've already said it should be applied to dropsuits and vehicles but again only for the racial variants at the lowest basic levels.
I'm glad for the feedback on this thread though and hope that it leads to consensus and a compromise that fits everyone. |
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