If people didn't use PROTO AV (which is dirt cheap) against STD HAV's, there wouldn't be a problem.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. The only thing is that any av nade nerd would have to come with a nerf to free lavs. Whether it be removing them or lowering their ehp. We need less of them in matches, not more.

Yep, you read that right. I think tanks and dropships are in good spots right now. I'm coming up on 10m SP invested in HAV's and currently drive Gunnlogi's. Dropships will not benefit from a pure HP buff as many are suggesting, nor will tanking magically be made easier with the introduction of advanced and prototype tanks.

What's wrong with the current game is AV being out of whack.

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THE ENTIRE WALL, I INCLUDED A TL;DR.

YES, THIS IS AN OPINION POST. IF YOU CAN'T HANDLE OTHERS OPINIONS OR HAVE A "STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE" MENTALITY, PLEASE EXIT THE WAY YOU CAME. I AM COMPLETELY OPEN TO DISCUSSION.

Firstly, I think swarms and plasma cannons are in a good spot right now. Swarms require you to stay out in the open while you obtain your lock, which gives enemies a chance to pop you. This comes with the bonus of having missiles track your target. These things also fly slow enough to give an aware vehicle pilot time to react. Plasma cannons trade the benefit of tracking to allow you to pop out of cover, fire, and quickly get back into cover. These weapons do a good amount of damage, and, when used in groups, spells doom for the vehicle, while used solo drives tanks away and provides a deterrent should they want to come back. These weapons should be used as a benchmark for other AV weapons.

Forge guns do a lot of damage out to a great range. I don't mind that they can hit pretty hard, but there needs to be a decay effect over distance (much like the optimal / falloff of Eve). You should not be able to two-shot a dropship barely within render range, however if said dropship is hovering right over you, he should feel the pain. The same would apply when forging tanks. You shouldn't be able to apply full damage from your redline into his.

I know that forge gunners do suffer drawbacks for their power, such as sacrificing your ability to fight infantry, a reduction in already non-existent move speed, limited ammo pool with small clips, as well as being lit up like a Christmas tree when charging, among other things not mentioned. I'm not going into the whole "WTF Y DO FORGIS DO MOAR DAMG THAN BIG RAIL?!", because comparing numbers to numbers does no justice to either side. Tbh, I think the damage on forges right now is fine. It's the range that's the issue. The long range of forges makes all of the downsides to forging moot, since you don't need to deal with infantry (aside from snipers), you're usually in a good spot to see the field ('dem roof camps), and there's usually a friendly nanohive nearby. I'd like to see forgers have to either fire from a closer range to apply their full damage (not melee range, still fairly long, not sure what a good exact number would be), or if they choose to use long range, suffer a damage reduction.

AV grenades do need a nerf. These do enough damage to render AV builds completely useless, since any idiot with a grenade slot can throw these homing bastards into a vehicles face and do massive amounts of damage. They also require very little SP investment for their effectiveness, and are usually seen as a bonus for getting those proto flux / locus grenades. These things should work as a deterrent instead of allowing any infantryman to both run anti-infantry weaponry and pop any tank that comes into view. These nades are the only AV weapon I think should be directly damage nerfed.

Rails basically follow the same thought pattern I use earlier in this post, in that they shouldn't be able to reach out and touch you from across the map and two shot you. I've shot down my fair share of dropships with my rail tank, and it is far too easy. Direct HP buffs will not save you from being knocked across the sky by a lone railer.

The main reason dropships are "fragile" right now is because the maps are too small. You're being forced to play the entire match within range of all AV weaponry on the field at any given point in time, meaning as soon as you take off, everyone knows. The problem isn't your HP, it's forge / rail range. Swarms can be dealt with by good pilots, or tanked for a short time by more expensive fits. When CCP does deliver larger maps, I think you'll see your chances of surviving the round with your dropship intact will increase dramatically, especially if they're coupled with what I've suggested.

TL; DR - Vehicle HP is fine. Forges / rails need a falloff range. Swarms and plasma cannons should be used as benchmarks for AV weaponry. AV nades are disgusting and should be nerfed. Dropship HP buffs will not save you, nor will ADV / PROTO tanks.

Come at me bro.

I also don't believe price is a great balancing factor. My Gunnlogi fits run me about 1.4m per tank, and I have no problem being taken out by proto AV. What comes with the tank is the battlefield presence you bring. When you're seen on the field, there's always a few guys on the other team that switch to AV fits, just to take you out. This makes the infantry's' job easier, since they have less AR's / SR's to worry about. Yes, the tank / AV pricing is vastly different, but just existing at that point in time changes many factors of the fight, often in your teams favor.

What about the PG nerf?

Should have explained that one. What I ment is that unlike the HAV, you can keep on throwing them out. Also, For the most part, it's because the ridiculous pricing of the turrets. They need to drop those back down, because doubling those didn't help lower the price of vehicles; it made it higher.

If people didn't use PROTO AV (which is dirt cheap) against STD HAV's, there wouldn't be a problem.

that fall out range will kill all rail tanks ~

in a fight close range rail losses to almost everything (apart from installations)

its like saying snipers should only do 10% damage at long range ~

I tried plasmas before the reset and found them to be much too weak given their range and slow plasma balls. I had to be very close to the tank, which isn't all that great for a weapon that does the least amount of dmg and need to reload after every shot. Swarms are the bees knees for light av weapons.

To have the plasma be used as an efficient av weapon, the dmg would have to be better than the swarm launcher given it's huge limitations. I will eventually go back and train plasma again because I really want to use it on my suicide fit, but I'm also hoping that it will be fixed.

If people didn't use PROTO AV (which is dirt cheap) against STD HAV's, there wouldn't be a problem.

If people didn't use Proto Turrets against STD Drop Suits, there wouldn't be a problem.


Jokes aside. In the real world, a single AV shot can destroy a tank. Because this is a game, it would be incredibly un-balanced if you could one shot tank. So it take multiple hits from AV to pop a tank. The biggest factor that makes tanks crap is that there are too many crap pilots who don't understand the strengths and weaknesses of their own tank. I have seen far too many tanks destroyed because they tried to "tank" AV fire. Even after CCP gave tanks a major buff in HP, crap pilots still flock to the forms to ***** that their tank doesn't have enough HP or that AV is too powerful. This speaks volumes about how much Dust tank pilots suck. Community, I call on you to buff to tanks with better pilots so that forums aren't drowning in crappy pilot tears. CCP can't do it, only you can.

If people didn't use Proto Turrets against STD Drop Suits, there wouldn't be a problem.


Jokes aside. In the real world, a single AV shot can destroy a tank. Because this is a game, it would be incredibly un-balanced if you could one shot tank. So it take multiple hits from AV to pop a tank. The biggest factor that makes tanks crap is that there are too many crap pilots who don't understand the strengths and weaknesses of their own tank. I have seen far too many tanks destroyed because they tried to "tank" AV fire. Even after CCP gave tanks a major buff in HP, crap pilots still flock to the forms to ***** that their tank doesn't have enough HP or that AV is too powerful. This speaks volumes about how much Dust tank pilots suck. Community, I call on you to buff to tanks with better pilots so that forums aren't drowning in crappy pilot tears. CCP can't do it, only you can.

If people didn't use Proto Turrets against STD Drop Suits, there wouldn't be a problem.


Jokes aside. In the real world, a single AV shot can destroy a tank. Because this is a game, it would be incredibly un-balanced if you could one shot tank. So it take multiple hits from AV to pop a tank. The biggest factor that makes tanks crap is that there are too many crap pilots who don't understand the strengths and weaknesses of their own tank. I have seen far too many tanks destroyed because they tried to "tank" AV fire. Even after CCP gave tanks a major buff in HP, crap pilots still flock to the forms to ***** that their tank doesn't have enough HP or that AV is too powerful. This speaks volumes about how much Dust tank pilots suck. Community, I call on you to buff to tanks with better pilots so that forums aren't drowning in crappy pilot tears. CCP can't do it, only you can.

The only thing I would add to your post, Pig, is something I've said in many other threads.

Swarms and Plasma Cannons should have their damage reversed, and Swarms should get a major buff to flight speed.

Then we need to have an effective unguided AV weapon for each race that is used for their Starter fits, so that use of seeker weapons requires an SP investment.

Swarms are then great for putting damage on fast moving vehicles like Dropships and LAVs without also just wrecking them with one hit, and the unguided AV weapons have the power necessary to take down heavier vehicles, but only if you aim well.

Other than that, love the post.

A good start would be a proximity warning for a charging FG, AB on L3, and your favorite resist/boost module on a hotkey.

1.) use rail weapons need the drop off over distance in damage but not a damage nerf
2.) all pilots need a HOT KEY SYSTEM- we have so many useless buttons but we have to bring up a radial menu to active the correct module , while we are trying to get away. So no our view is obstructed and we just activated the wrong module.

I agree 100 percent-Dropships are fine in regards to HP. I also agree, the issue is that there is NO " proto vehicles." Right now with the exception of the logi LAV's we see that there is a clear violation of Newtons third law.

Proto AV weapons should be designed to defeat protovehicles- but currently we lack proto vehicles

^

You have good points,

1.) I would only really want the OPTION of the HOT KEY, not a mandatory hotkey system, that way each pilot can maximize his or her play style.

2.) I compared proto vehicles to proto weapons only so that CCP may be aware that there is not a balance between AV and vehicles , but with that said , I believe good pilot skills are better than good pilot skill points- However even with good skills its been super tough these days. So people have skills that are far superior than the gear, and while most of my corp reveres me as a good pilot, I know that my skills could be far greater as a pilot.

3.) i do like the damage reversal idea of swarm and plasma.

This is a great post. I more than support you and I hope that the minority of players that are pilots can come together and make a difference. I think this post says what most of us feel, we don't want a buff we just want a fair chance !

1. Nerf AV dmg (so it's a deterrent not the best AV weapon)
2. Change forge gun slightly (slower projectile speed or add falloff)
3. Make dropships faster and more maneuverable
4. ???
5. Profit from balance

I think AV grenades are fine if you have to actually hit your target with them.

Can you prime them like other grenades? I realize they contact detonate, but removing the seeker function from them in exchange for allow you to hold them out and ready before throwing might make them easier to use without being faceroll.

I think AV grenades are fine if you have to actually hit your target with them.

Can you prime them like other grenades? I realize they contact detonate, but removing the seeker function from them in exchange for allow you to hold them out and ready before throwing might make them easier to use without being faceroll.

No need to prime them. Throw them near the vehicle and they will seek the target, then explode on impact.

If they didn't home in, that'd be pretty cool (but leave a homing variant in there at the cost of damage). Add a condition on the grenade so that it does normal damage to vehicles and massively reduced damage to infantry. I know it's not "realistic", but we're not shooting for realism - we're going for balance.

Not at all. Have it be a shaped charge grenade.

Basically, have it do massive damage on contact, but it only detonates on contact with vehicles, and its splash is nonexistent.

If people didn't use Proto Turrets against STD Drop Suits, there wouldn't be a problem.


Jokes aside. In the real world, a single AV shot can destroy a tank. Because this is a game, it would be incredibly un-balanced if you could one shot tank. So it take multiple hits from AV to pop a tank. The biggest factor that makes tanks crap is that there are too many crap pilots who don't understand the strengths and weaknesses of their own tank. I have seen far too many tanks destroyed because they tried to "tank" AV fire. Even after CCP gave tanks a major buff in HP, crap pilots still flock to the forms to ***** that their tank doesn't have enough HP or that AV is too powerful. This speaks volumes about how much Dust tank pilots suck. Community, I call on you to buff to tanks with better pilots so that forums aren't drowning in crappy pilot tears. CCP can't do it, only you can.

This is actually antiquated, if we are talking about cutting-edge technology:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnAmPEjsOGw

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Fist_(countermeasure)

There are also other forms of Aggressive Defensive Systems, as well as internal defenses that make it significantly harder to destroy modern Main Battle Tanks. Even turret jamming is not as common as it once was, though still an appreciable problem. Irregardless, disabling a modern MBT is much more difficult then it was in the cold war era. This area is what I spend my life/job/freetime around. Modern warfair is significantly more complicated then it was a mere decade or two ago. Take for example the new acoustic systems that have been deployed for a while that can triangulate an identify a shooter along with his weapon type and range and location in actual combat time.

As my last note: This universe that we play in has magical shields that negate 100% of all damage until the shield buffer is destroyed... Realism be damned.

Gameplay >> Realism

I always find it funny when someone tries to claim that one of the "trade offs" for forge guns is that they are weak against infantry.

They are OHK against any infantry unit in the game, how is that possibly "weak against infantry?" They are one of the better anti-infantry weapons in the game. especially in the average mid-range encounter. Let's not even talk about how easy it is to "forge gun snipe" infantry from above. It's easier than using a regular sniper rifle.

This is actually antiquated, if we are talking about cutting-edge technology:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnAmPEjsOGw

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Fist_(countermeasure)

There are also other forms of Aggressive Defensive Systems, as well as internal defenses that make it significantly harder to destroy modern Main Battle Tanks. Even turret jamming is not as common as it once was, though still an appreciable problem. Irregardless, disabling a modern MBT is much more difficult then it was in the cold war era. This area is what I spend my life/job/freetime around. Modern warfair is significantly more complicated then it was a mere decade or two ago. Take for example the new acoustic systems that have been deployed for a while that can triangulate an identify a shooter along with his weapon type and range and location in actual combat time.

As my last note: This universe that we play in has magical shields that negate 100% of all damage until the shield buffer is destroyed... Realism be damned.

Gameplay >> Realism

+1 so I could -1

If people didn't use PROTO AV (which is dirt cheap) against STD HAV's, there wouldn't be a problem.

The lack of a vehicle lock means that someone is able to steal your vehicle and turn it against you. I see no problem with this.

So are you saying that random blueberries stealing your vehicles is ok, or that you think anyone who doesn't play PC doesn't get a say?