DUST Search - Are HAV's overpowered?

Justin Tymes wrote:

pegasis prime wrote:

Justin Tymes wrote:

I don't buy that proto-tank argument. You'd have 2 squads going AV just to take down one if the tank has Infantry support, while the rest of the team is swarmed because of superior numbers. It would just be Chrome-Ambush 2.0.

So whats your point proto tanks will be hard to kill ... cos guess what there supposed to be hard to kill. Allot of sp and isk will be invested in true proto tanks so you better bet your ass theyd be hard to kill.

Which wouldn't be a problem, if tanks had a weakness outside of AV. But they dont. It would take multiple dedicated proto-AV users to take down one proto-tank, especially with infantry support. And forget anything under proto-gear doing anything significant to them, while the tanker proceeds to mow down anyone who isn't a threat to them. Dedicated AV users are nearly useless against Infantry, while tankers are effective against everything in the game.

And even then, it still may not be a problem if the game wasn't a total SP sink. I'm closing in on 8 mill, and I still don't have enough SP to be a dedicated Logibro, it would take at least 10 Mill to get to dedicated AV range right now. What we would have if proto-tanks were in the game is vets and only vets being able to take down vets, and that's a path the Dust cannot go through if it wants to survive. Currently a squad of standard AV users will at least be able to make a tank without Infantry support retreat, a squad of advanced AV users will be able to take down a tank without Infantry support, and a squad of proto AV users will be able to take down a tank even if it does have Infantry support, which is the way it should be. Tanks should not be a KDR tool.


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Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2013.06.17 13:18:00 - [1] - Quote It seems that it's impossible to take down a proper fitted HAV. They stomp infantry so quickly that often it's impossible to even get a single AV grenade out. But it doesn't matter much, because the HAV's can anyway tank 5+ AV grenades. The militia forge gun. The standard AV weapons are a complete joke. They can't take out a HAV by any chance at all. I once shot a full forge gun clip and threw 3 av grenades at an armor tanked HAV, and he must have laughed as he drove a little away, tanked the damage I had done in a few seconds, and killed me. Do I really have to spec up in AV to take out a tank? I don't have to spec up in anything to take out a protosuit, I've done that many times with a militia fit. But HAV's can take a ridiculous amount of damage from standard AV weapons, drive a little away, out of range of AV grenades, in about three seconds. After that he just tanks the damage as he shoots you. I often see people driving tanks with 15+/0 kd ratios. AV weapons are supposed to counter HAV's and LAV's. Not be laughed at, as they just tank the damage and shoot you. (militia HAV's are not thought of in this entry, only standard or higher)
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2013.06.17 13:23:00 - [2] - Quote Daedric Lothar wrote: I love the forums, OMG HAV are underpowered, OMG HAV overpowered. Yeah, it really frustrates me when people think they're underpowered. You're not supposed to be invincible in them. And well, i'm just trying to start a relevant discussion so people can actually end up agreeing.
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 27	Posted - 2013.06.17 13:32:00 - [3] - Quote Daedric Lothar wrote: Benari Kalidima wrote: so people can actually end up agreeing. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Oh right, I forgot the standard of these forums. Speaking about which, you're certainly not making them better >>
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 28	Posted - 2013.06.17 14:44:00 - [4] - Quote Exergonic wrote: I'm sorry to hear that your militia AV isn't killing STD and ADV tanks... Yes you do have to put in close to 1 million sp to get Proto AV to 4 shot my 13 mil sp tank... I'm so sorry you have to waste so much SP >.< HTFU First of all, thanks for being so hostile, this community certainly needs more of that. Now about SP. It shouldn't matter if you don't have any skillpoints. You're supposed to have an advantage with more skillpoints yes, but there's not supposed to be such a big difference that it's impossible to take out a HAV. That you've spent 13mil skillpoints and 2 million isk on tanks doesn't make you entitled to win anytime over anyone who spent less skillpoints than you at AV stuff. Skill is supposed to come into play, but it just doesn't matter when it comes to the HAV's. I know a friend of mine doesn't want to play this game due to how unbalanced tanks are.
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 28	Posted - 2013.06.17 15:11:00 - [5] - Quote Exergonic wrote: First off, I wasn't being Hostile scrub.. Its called sarcasm but you will learn in due time. Now if you truly believe that a weapon you get for 600 isk and no SP to use should beable to LOLrockstarhero kill a 2 mil isk tank then you're on something i could only wish to score from my dude one day. If i bring out a MILITIA TANK and you have your MILITIA FORGE there will be a different out come. But what you are saying is Militia AV should be able to not only kill a ADV tank np but you should be able to Solo it... Right now AV is op seeing as our ADV tank are glass cannons and can get 4 shot by Proto AV (1 Proto AV is all you need) You're right about one thing... This game is mostly skill... Very true... I would say about 75% skill and 25% skill points I will say what i said again... Quit QQin and HTFU... Its a Team base game so use Teamwork No you're not being sarcastic. Stop doing personal attacks and actually argue against me. And I don't think it's wrong for a 600 isk setup to be able to take out a 2.1million isk HAV. If a 600 isk setup can take out a 200k isk proto setup, by being better at aiming, I don't see why it's wrong for a militia AV person to be able to take out a 2.1million isk tank with superior tactics. As i keep saying But right now it's outright impossible, the HAV can just eat all the bullets and tank it away. In fact a swarm launcher only removes around 1/8 of a HAV's armor/shield. Which means you'd have to have about five people to take down a tank. Meanwhile those five people can't counter the other foot troops, because swarmlaunchers and forge guns are horrible against them. It's incredibly easy to take out the AV troops, while they're trying to take out the tanks. Forge gun troops are completely immobile while charging, making it impossible to defend themselves. Meanwhile the HAV is incredibly mobile, and can just drive around the corner and do a armor/shield rep, if the damage is really a problem at all. This is really frustrating for new players. Try making more people play dust when they basically are totally useless against tanks for the first few months. Yes. First few months. If you're supposed to counter HAV's with 1million sp setups, it'll take more than a month in passive sp just for the AV setup. But people don't want to have to level up in anti-tank, just to be able to have the slightest chance against a HAV.
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 28	Posted - 2013.06.17 15:28:00 - [6] - Quote Exergonic wrote: Can't blame mechanics when the problem is user error. The sole reason for this thread is stating that it's not user error that's the reason. If i get a full forge gun clip or more into a tank, don't I deserve to win? The tank only has to hit me for about 3 seconds for me to die. Meanwhile the tank is much more mobile. It really, really shouldn't require more than 1mil skillpoints in AV to just consider taking down a tank. As for the people who keep saying teamwork, that doesn't work either. I've been standing next to two people, all shooting swarmlaunchers at once at a tank, and it just drove behind a structure and repaired, because it's so mobile. 2 seconds later we get shot by infantry, because we don't have any proper weapons against them.
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2013.06.17 15:52:00 - [7] - Quote St Evilsbitch wrote: Benari Kalidima wrote: No you're not being sarcastic. Stop doing personal attacks and actually argue against me. And. "But people don't want to have to level up in anti-tank, just to be able to have the slightest chance against a HAV. There is no actual argument as you have failed to understand the game mechanics. He doesn't have to hold your hand or give you a history lesson. Your argument is this: I want to solo a tank ( that possibly has three people in it), without any investment into how I try to take it down. My answer is this: get into a rail gun turret on the map. This is your only solution. TBH you deserve the sarcasm/personal attacks. Most of the time it takes a full squad to keep 1 tank alive. No, I don't misunderstand the game mechanics. In other games, like Halo, or Planetside 2, it isn't impossible for anti-vehicle infantry to take out tanks solo, so why should it in Dust?
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2013.06.17 16:12:00 - [8] - Quote Master Jaraiya wrote: Yea dude seriously, it is a TANK it isn't supposed to be easy to take out. To me this is just [un]common sense. It's funny how everyone is interpreting me as saying it should be easy. All I say is that it shouldn't be impossible. And it is right now for players not leveled up in AV. Even if they're multiple people attacking a tank. As I've said before, been unable to take out a tank being three people. Whether this is really a question of matchmaking can also be discussed, since a player with 14mil skillpoints really shouldn't be in games with people fifteen times less.
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2013.06.17 16:18:00 - [9] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Serious question OP: Do you think heavies are OP as well? This will act as a good measuring stick for how serious we should be taking you. I can't believe this is how you people run a discussion. Judging my arguments from a opinion is outright stupid. No I don't think heavies are overpowered. I don't think they're seriously underpowered either. They need the range fix, that all weapons should get, but apart from that, I don't see much of a problem. I've also done some math on that, check my post history if you really want to check it out :)
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2013.06.17 16:19:00 - [10] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Benari Kalidima wrote: Master Jaraiya wrote: Yea dude seriously, it is a TANK it isn't supposed to be easy to take out. To me this is just [un]common sense. It's funny how everyone is interpreting me as saying it should be easy. All I say is that it shouldn't be impossible. And it is right now for players not leveled up in AV. Even if they're multiple people attacking a tank. As I've said before, been unable to take out a tank being three people. Whether this is really a question of matchmaking can also be discussed, since a player with 14mil skillpoints really shouldn't be in games with people fifteen times less. What you're asking for is the equivalent of someone with militia starter fits to be able to easily take down someone in full prototype. Think about that for a second and let it settle in. Uhm, did you read my posts? I can easily do that already, and that is exactly my point. Don't you get it? Edit: my point is, you're not entitled to win just because you have more skillpoints, or have spent more isk. Have an advantage yes, but you are not, entitled to win. If you think you're entitled to win, the game is effectively P2W, since you can get proto equivalents for AUR. There's so many flaws in having too large gaps between very old players and very new playing together.

Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2013.06.17 16:49:00 - [11] - Quote St Evilsbitch wrote: Benari Kalidima wrote: Uhm, did you read my posts? I can easily do that already, and that is exactly my point. Don't you get it? Edit: my point is, you're not entitled to win just because you have more skillpoints, or have spent more isk. Have an advantage yes, but you are not, entitled to win. If you think you're entitled to win, the game is effectively P2W, since you can get proto equivalents for AUR. There's so many flaws in having too large gaps between very old players and very new playing together. GTFO. Seriously. You have to skill into advanced gear to get the ability to use the proto aurum gear, so yet another logical fallacy. No one has brought up being entitled but you. You are apparently entitled to an argument that you will only see your side of, and will only accept a reality that exists somewhere else on some other game. And apparently we all have to play your game where you are the supreme ruler of said fantasy land. Grow The Fuq UP. I'm not the one doing personal attacks, so I find that I'm pretty grown up. I'm not telling you to "GTFO" am i? Or grow up? Now stop telling me to. Discussing balancing issues shouldn't turn into a flamewar. I'm willing to see both sides, that's why I made this thread. I entirely understand that a tank shouldn't be easy to take out, but currently it just seems way too hard. It scares new players away, because they have no chance, and this is why I think the gap should be smaller imo. It's not fun being camped by a tank and not being able to do anything, even though you're AV. I even compared it to other games, but for some reason it's being rejected because "it's not the same game". Why is it wrong to compare it to, for example planetside 2? In planetside 2, tanks are good against infantry, but vulnerable to AV, be it one or five. I think that's a good example for how it should be. I also do understand that you should have an advantage with better skills, and spending more isk, but the gap between players has just become too big. The game has just come out, and there's players already with 15 mil skillpoints specced in tanks. As I said, this of course also could be fixed with matchmaking, but the result is the same anyway.
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2013.06.17 17:09:00 - [12] - Quote Exergonic wrote: Benari Kalidima wrote: I don't have to spec up in anything to take out a protosuit, I've done that many times with a militia fit. 1. Want a cookie?? Most people run in free fits all day to make money 2. Game is 75% skill > 25% skillpoints Benari Kalidima wrote: But HAV's can take a ridiculous amount of damage from standard AV weapons, drive a little away, out of range of AV grenades, in about three seconds. After that he just tanks the damage as he shoots you. I often see people driving tanks with 15+/0 kd ratios. 1. Yes they can... They're tanks remember?? 2. Remember STD isn't very different then Militia 3. 3 seconds? They must have already been moving 4. Don't stand in the open when throwing AV nades? Or you can always do what he can't cut thru the map get on top of a roof and have sight of him for 70% of the map 5. You have to run a 12+ KD to make money as a tank... Because when you go against people who know how to kill them you will lose them... Benari Kalidima wrote: AV weapons are supposed to counter HAV's and LAV's. Not be laughed at, as they just tank the damage and shoot you. (militia HAV's are not thought of in this entry, only standard or higher) 1. Anti Vehicle weapons are used to kill Vehicles??!?!?!? GTFOT!!! 2. Trust me there are many things tank drivers laugh at... and i assure you AV is not one of them 3. No **** because your QQ has been based off your experience with MILITIA AV... 1.In other games, such as planetside 2, the tanks can actually be hurt by normal weapons. In dust only AV works, and doesn't work very well 2.Again why shouldn't we be able to do any damage with standard or militia gear? You shouldn't have to spec into AV, it should just make it easier. 3.No. Without acceleration taken into account, the tank moves 93.75km/h, which is 26m/s. The av grenades radius is 6m. 4.I try not to stand in the open, but sometimes it's the only way to reach the tank. Especially when you spawn in the open. Again, somewhat more a spawn issue than the tank itself, but you get the point. 5. I think it's stupid. Make the tanks much cheaper, and nerf them. Makes for more balanced gameplay overall. 1.I'm not sure what you mean by "GTFOT" besides you're trying to tell me you're angry because we're arguing on the internet. 2.Personally not a tank driver, so I don't know. I don't have 14 million skillpoints so I can try out one of these crazy setups. 3.Yes my experience is based on militia av, because i can't afford anything else sp wise. The next thing i will do is for sure to spec up in AV, but in the meanwhile, what do I do? Still, what do new players do? Does everyone have to spec up in AV to have a chance?
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2013.06.17 17:30:00 - [13] - Quote Exergonic wrote: Edit: Its in 2 posts because i can only Quote 5 per O.o Here you go i'll break your first post down for you so you can understand 1. Nothing is Impossible 2. QQ its hard to kill someone who knows how to make a fit QQ 3. Was probably a Blaster tank... They are strong vs Infantry if they can aim 4. L2bait then Go behind a wall and rain down your never ending nade spam with a nano 5. Let me guess you use lvl 1 nades >.< 6. as a shield tanker it takes 4 proto packs to kill me... 2 people who can out smart me can 2 shot me 7. they are Militia and i assume you mean the Reg Swarm launcher and Reg Forge when you say standard... Which the difference in both of them is clip size... 8. Armor tanks (std and adv) LOL at STD forge guns... you get a 20% reduction in damage... But i tell you what STD swarms will make him turn the corner a lot faster... 9. Yes tanks do tend to Hardtarget AV standing there trying to kill it 10. Is that really a question?? smh 1. Yes it is. If your dps is lower than the tanks armor/shield repair per second, it is impossible. 2. It's not hard, it's impossible alone, unless standing next to a supply depot. I've used a forge gun clip and all my AV grenades uncountable times. Also I've tried flux against shield tanks, and they didn't do any significant damage. 3. Indeed it was. 4. I've tried that, but most often they are just so fast that they drive out of range really quickly. That's what i mean when speaking about mobility btw. 5. Yes, as I've stated before, I don't have anything else. 6. I guess it's fine that it's possible with proto, but it should also be possible with standard or militia, granted it will be much harder. 7. skipping this one. 8. But he just turns around the corner and he's gone. AV infantry is really slow, while tanks are really fast. I find that odd. 9. Of course. 10. Yes it is. And I'd like you to answer it.
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 50	Posted - 2013.06.19 14:10:00 - [14] - Quote Mortedeamor wrote: roflmao omg really ..i never thought i would see another one of these thread xD lovely ccp this thread is not what u wanna base your patches off of please no lol I must admit I've changed my mind somewhat. The best fix would be better matchmaking.
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 50	Posted - 2013.06.19 14:14:00 - [15] - Quote Mortedeamor wrote: Benari Kalidima wrote: It seems that it's impossible to take down a proper fitted HAV. They stomp infantry so quickly that often it's impossible to even get a single AV grenade out. But it doesn't matter much, because the HAV's can anyway tank 5+ AV grenades. The militia forge gun. The standard AV weapons are a complete joke. They can't take out a HAV by any chance at all. I once shot a full forge gun clip and threw 3 av grenades at an armor tanked HAV, and he must have laughed as he drove a little away, tanked the damage I had done in a few seconds, and killed me. Do I really have to spec up in AV to take out a tank? I don't have to spec up in anything to take out a protosuit, I've done that many times with a militia fit. But HAV's can take a ridiculous amount of damage from standard AV weapons, drive a little away, out of range of AV grenades, in about three seconds. After that he just tanks the damage as he shoots you. I often see people driving tanks with 15+/0 kd ratios. AV weapons are supposed to counter HAV's and LAV's. Not be laughed at, as they just tank the damage and shoot you. (militia HAV's are not thought of in this entry, only standard or higher) tanks are completely 100% soloable by anyone with the right gear and i havnt seen a tank run anything and /0 with me on the field or any competent av spec in like 3 months and before that only the best tankers could pull it off without massive support My point was that not everyone has "the right gear". But it's probably better solved through proper matchmaking
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 59	Posted - 2013.06.20 07:05:00 - [16] - Quote Exergonic wrote: Can't believe this topic is still going.... Neither can I, wasn't me that bumped it.
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 59	Posted - 2013.06.20 07:37:00 - [17] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Let me guess: you were probably going against one of the following tankers: Mortedeamor, Slap26, psychotic shooter, 0 try harder, void echo, general grodd, exmaple, earl james, fighter4all, movado, and maybe ten more. Now, that's less than 20 out of every single tanker in the game. Believe me, it is not tanks that are overpowered; it is the players. I urge you to buy an aurum tank and with proto turrets and see if you can last 4 minutes without redline sniping. Believe me, after dropships, lasers, and mass drivers, tanks are probably the hardest weapons to use in this game. You're probably new to this game and I understand that, but you will find that if you skill into even ADV level AV, youll be able to solo 95% of HAVs you encounter and any good tanker or AV player will tell you that. Before you call for nerfs, try out that weapon system and learn it inside and out. If you find that it truly has no weaknesses, it is OP. I've already read your comment, you don't have to post it twice
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 60	Posted - 2013.06.20 17:53:00 - [18] - Quote Racro 01 Arifistan wrote: dust is fuckn diffrent to halo and all that **. i've said this a few times nw. IF YOU WANT TO KILL A WELL FITTED TANK/ OR GOOD TANK DRIVER YOU NEED TO BE ON PAR WITH HIS MODULES. IE YOUR GOING TO NEED AT LEAST ADV FOR A CHANCE AT MAKEING A KILL. PROTO TO HAVE AN EXXELENT CHANCE AT KILLING HIM. MILLITA AND STANDARD ARE JUST GOING TO MAKE US LAUCH AND EVENTUALLY ** US OFF TO THE POINT WE KEEP BEATING THE CRAP OUT OF YOU. AND LASTLY IN WAHT WORLD IS IT POSSIBLE WE A SMALL HAND HELD WEAPON IS GOING TO BRING DOWN A LARGE TANK WITH A BIG GUN. I'm not sure what exactly you're trying to say, but thanks for the rage.
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 62	Posted - 2013.06.20 21:42:00 - [19] - Quote Justin Tymes wrote: pegasis prime wrote: Justin Tymes wrote: I don't buy that proto-tank argument. You'd have 2 squads going AV just to take down one if the tank has Infantry support, while the rest of the team is swarmed because of superior numbers. It would just be Chrome-Ambush 2.0. So whats your point proto tanks will be hard to kill ... cos guess what there supposed to be hard to kill. Allot of sp and isk will be invested in true proto tanks so you better bet your ass theyd be hard to kill. Which wouldn't be a problem, if tanks had a weakness outside of AV. But they dont. It would take multiple dedicated proto-AV users to take down one proto-tank, especially with infantry support. And forget anything under proto-gear doing anything significant to them, while the tanker proceeds to mow down anyone who isn't a threat to them. Dedicated AV users are nearly useless against Infantry, while tankers are effective against everything in the game. And even then, it still may not be a problem if the game wasn't a total SP sink. I'm closing in on 8 mill, and I still don't have enough SP to be a dedicated Logibro, it would take at least 10 Mill to get to dedicated AV range right now. What we would have if proto-tanks were in the game is vets and only vets being able to take down vets, and that's a path the Dust cannot go through if it wants to survive. Currently a squad of standard AV users will at least be able to make a tank without Infantry support retreat, a squad of advanced AV users will be able to take down a tank without Infantry support, and a squad of proto AV users will be able to take down a tank even if it does have Infantry support, which is the way it should be. Tanks should not be a KDR tool. Yeah, this is pretty much what i was trying to say, my original post might have been a little to cluttered. pegasis prime wrote: Lol I dont think you get the point. if you want to go one shot everything with an ar then thete is allways cod . I hear they have about 30 different ways to one shot and twich kill one another. That's not what he was saying at all.
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 64	Posted - 2013.06.21 13:31:00 - [20] - Quote demonkiller 12 wrote: GOOD if i spend ***** 5-6 months speccing into a tank i expect to be damn near invincible, but oh dont worry you can get proto AV gear in 2 weeks! this game is not meant to be ***** kind, its here to be brutal Ehm, no? When did the dev's tell you this? If you want more people to play this game, maybe you should make it easier for new players.

Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 64	Posted - 2013.06.21 13:43:00 - [21] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: Call bs all you want bro . First questuon who arw you and seco dly do yiu have any sp in av or tanks if not then sir the door is that way dont let it hit you on the ass in the way You also now look like a tool having problems with proto tanks because a std wepon cat or wont solo them wow go back to cod. First of all, better spelling would make it easier to understand what you are saying. Secondly, stop telling people sound like a tool, when you can't spell yourself. Telling people to go back to CoD is also stupid. If anything it's the CoD like mechanics that break this game, such as orbital bombardment in public matches.