DUST Search - Forges are not OP, proto tanks, and the anti-QQ threads

Delta 749 wrote:

Charlotte O'Dell wrote:

Delta 749 wrote:

Actually use a swarm launcher for an extended time and tell me its easy to use, tracking on it is broken and locks on targets outside or on the edge of the reticule rather than whats dead center, the missiles themselves track to the bottom of the vehicle so even minor bumps will stop them unless you fire from a significant height, rate of fire is slower than a forge gun as well since you can not bring your reticle back up to even start the lock on process again until several seconds have passed oh and did I mention this limitation even extends to reloading
As for damage remember you will need to get through a vehicles shields first and the swarm launcher does a pitiful amount of damage to shields so you will likely use up a clip just to bring them down and get to experience that wonderful delay before reloading and then the time it takes to lock on again

Tsch, some people, they think just because a weapon locks its easy mode and never consider the plethora of problems it has that defeats that perk

The weapon makes 180 degree turns mid-flight. 60 degree...yeah sure I can see that, but anything more than 90 degrees is physically impossible to do in the space of 0.25m.

And have you ever seen a swarm actually catch up to something that was able to pass by it close enough that it would turn that abruptly because I sure as hell havent
Have I fired at dropships and seen them step on the gas passing the slow moving cluster, it pulling a 180 and never catching up, sure have
Have I shot at LAVs that have played chicken with the swarm with the swarm again pulling a 180 but being left behind in the dust and thanks to its wonderful tracking fly itself straight into the ground trying to pursue the LAV, you bet your ass I have

Now you might be wondering why I still use it since it has all these drawbacks and Ill tell you two reasons, first being that I can use it on a medium suit and second that it is good for scaring away tanks even though I could empty all my swarms at them and not destroy the tank but then again the majority of tank drivers will get frightened by their own shadows and hightail it back to the redline let alone see even a militia level swarm in the air

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Charlotte O'Dell Molon Labe. League of Infamy 507	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:23:00 - [1] - Quote Okay, I'm a tanker, and probably one of the better ones. Are vehicles horribly underpowered- no; I manage to go 25:0 in pubs and 12:0 in PC most of the time, unless I'm stuck dealing with other tanks. Is AV OP- For the most part, I'm gonna have to say no on that one. Sure, AV nades punch well above their ISK cost and perhaps need a price increase of 400%, but their limited range is a huge weakness. If I run scanners and put a buffer of infantry between me and the enemy, I never get hit with them. And forge guns, though quite powerful, are pretty hard to use. I urge any tanker to try and hit something with them. Are they very, very powerful compared to turrets- probably, but when you consider you can snipe them from 600m away with a OHK, and they need to be 300m away in a slow suit, it evens out. Swarms are rather stupid in my opinion because they require zero skill to use and completely wreck armor tanks. They might be the only ones that need a damage reduction of perhaps 15%- why they got the 10% if beyond me, in the first place. The biggest problems with tanks are: Targets not rendering past 300m; my rail can do twice that, but my eyes can't. A lack of ADV and PRO tanks to counter the huge amount of damage that PRO AV does- I've been hit by swarms that did 9860 damage (I saw it on the screen after I blew up), 3 AV grenades in a moment that do 6000 damage (not including armor bonus dmg), and proto breaches (which have a dps comparable to rails last build with 3 dmg mods and maxed out skills). We need these ADV and PRO HAVs to defend against the AV, and AV CANNOT GET A BUFF when they are introduced, or tanks become even more of an SP and ISK sink. AV needs to stay the way it is before and after we get pro and ADv tanks. *An imbalance between armor and shield in tank on tank combat (I'm sure you've all seen the threads) If I had any say in it, new tanks would be as such: STD LVL: type 1) high dmg and acceleration, but low HP type 2) high dmg and high hp, but low accleration type 3) high hp and acceleration, but low dmg ADV type 1) high dmg and acceleration, but low HP type 2) high dmg and high hp, but low accleration type 3) high hp and acceleration, but low dmg PRO type 1) high dmg and acceleration, but low HP type 2) high dmg and high hp, but low accleration type 3) high hp and acceleration, but low dmg OFFICER -god mode- (notice how none of the above favor glass cannons, and all have an inherent weakness to exploit, as the weaknesses are very exaggerated- a 28% reduction to that specifc stat, while the other two get a 16% buff) Now, every race would take into account their personal flavors. For instance, a minmitar type 1 tank, would be fast than a minmitar type 2, but a minmitar type 2, would not be fast than an amarr or caldari type 1. Scaling up every level, tanks would increase base HP by 350 points, and get another high and low slot, so if a STD LVL tank has 5 high, 2 low, an ADV would have 6 high, 3 low; PRO would be 7 high, 4 low. The base HP raise is so low, because it provides more ability to customize, as one could stack 7 damage mods on a tank, but they would have around 3000 HP. I could also have a tank with a top speed of 50mph if nano-fibers were re-introduced. This idea is so great because a proto tanks does not necessarily have to be the death-machine than just sits somewhere- it can be anything! Char likes customization and brainstorming.
Golda Go Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 35	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:31:00 - [2] - Quote Stupidest suggestion I've ever seen. No one will play as type 1/3.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY 178	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:41:00 - [3] - Quote Golda Go wrote: Stupidest suggestion I've ever seen. No one will play as type 1/3. type 1/3 are interesting. i'm sure someone can take advantage of them.
Xender17 Intrepidus XI Omega Commission 170	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:45:00 - [4] - Quote I like it.
Syther Shadows The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 121	Posted - 2013.06.17 08:51:00 - [5] - Quote Golda Go wrote: Stupidest suggestion I've ever seen. No one will play as type 1/3. ive already seen people wreck face as 1/3
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 391	Posted - 2013.06.17 09:02:00 - [6] - Quote Actually use a swarm launcher for an extended time and tell me its easy to use, tracking on it is broken and locks on targets outside or on the edge of the reticule rather than whats dead center, the missiles themselves track to the bottom of the vehicle so even minor bumps will stop them unless you fire from a significant height, rate of fire is slower than a forge gun as well since you can not bring your reticle back up to even start the lock on process again until several seconds have passed oh and did I mention this limitation even extends to reloading As for damage remember you will need to get through a vehicles shields first and the swarm launcher does a pitiful amount of damage to shields so you will likely use up a clip just to bring them down and get to experience that wonderful delay before reloading and then the time it takes to lock on again Tsch, some people, they think just because a weapon locks its easy mode and never consider the plethora of problems it has that defeats that perk
Charlotte O'Dell Molon Labe. League of Infamy 509	Posted - 2013.06.17 09:03:00 - [7] - Quote shaman oga wrote: Golda Go wrote: Stupidest suggestion I've ever seen. No one will play as type 1/3. type 1/3 are interesting. i'm sure someone can take advantage of them. Not for anti-infantry. Any tank turret wrecks infantry, so adding on that extra armor is pretty easy with smaller turrets.
Charlotte O'Dell Molon Labe. League of Infamy 509	Posted - 2013.06.17 09:05:00 - [8] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: Actually use a swarm launcher for an extended time and tell me its easy to use, tracking on it is broken and locks on targets outside or on the edge of the reticule rather than whats dead center, the missiles themselves track to the bottom of the vehicle so even minor bumps will stop them unless you fire from a significant height, rate of fire is slower than a forge gun as well since you can not bring your reticle back up to even start the lock on process again until several seconds have passed oh and did I mention this limitation even extends to reloading As for damage remember you will need to get through a vehicles shields first and the swarm launcher does a pitiful amount of damage to shields so you will likely use up a clip just to bring them down and get to experience that wonderful delay before reloading and then the time it takes to lock on again Tsch, some people, they think just because a weapon locks its easy mode and never consider the plethora of problems it has that defeats that perk The weapon makes 180 degree turns mid-flight. 60 degree...yeah sure I can see that, but anything more than 90 degrees is physically impossible to do in the space of 0.25m.
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 391	Posted - 2013.06.17 09:12:00 - [9] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Delta 749 wrote: Actually use a swarm launcher for an extended time and tell me its easy to use, tracking on it is broken and locks on targets outside or on the edge of the reticule rather than whats dead center, the missiles themselves track to the bottom of the vehicle so even minor bumps will stop them unless you fire from a significant height, rate of fire is slower than a forge gun as well since you can not bring your reticle back up to even start the lock on process again until several seconds have passed oh and did I mention this limitation even extends to reloading As for damage remember you will need to get through a vehicles shields first and the swarm launcher does a pitiful amount of damage to shields so you will likely use up a clip just to bring them down and get to experience that wonderful delay before reloading and then the time it takes to lock on again Tsch, some people, they think just because a weapon locks its easy mode and never consider the plethora of problems it has that defeats that perk The weapon makes 180 degree turns mid-flight. 60 degree...yeah sure I can see that, but anything more than 90 degrees is physically impossible to do in the space of 0.25m. And have you ever seen a swarm actually catch up to something that was able to pass by it close enough that it would turn that abruptly because I sure as hell havent Have I fired at dropships and seen them step on the gas passing the slow moving cluster, it pulling a 180 and never catching up, sure have Have I shot at LAVs that have played chicken with the swarm with the swarm again pulling a 180 but being left behind in the dust and thanks to its wonderful tracking fly itself straight into the ground trying to pursue the LAV, you bet your ass I have Now you might be wondering why I still use it since it has all these drawbacks and Ill tell you two reasons, first being that I can use it on a medium suit and second that it is good for scaring away tanks even though I could empty all my swarms at them and not destroy the tank but then again the majority of tank drivers will get frightened by their own shadows and hightail it back to the redline let alone see even a militia level swarm in the air
Benari Kalidima Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2013.06.17 09:22:00 - [10] - Quote Golda Go wrote: Stupidest suggestion I've ever seen. No one will play as type 1/3. blitzkrieg?

Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon Plus 1079	Posted - 2013.06.17 09:44:00 - [11] - Quote Now, see, this is an example of a sane thread from someone who knows what they're talking about. +1. I agree with pretty much all of your points here. What do you think of the engineering skill and it not giving 5% PG per level?
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1653	Posted - 2013.06.17 09:45:00 - [12] - Quote Golda Go wrote: Stupidest suggestion I've ever seen. No one will play as type 1/3. 1, Maybe not so much, but 3? I would use it as an Anti Infantry Tank, considering it'll be very quick and even with low damage output I'll wreck most Infantry.
shaman oga Nexus Balusa Horizon DARKSTAR ARMY 178	Posted - 2013.06.17 09:48:00 - [13] - Quote i would use type 3 to support with remote repairs, it would be fantastic, if only CCP lets triage tanks to earn WP.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1653	Posted - 2013.06.17 09:51:00 - [14] - Quote Delta 749 wrote: Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Delta 749 wrote: Actually use a swarm launcher for an extended time and tell me its easy to use, tracking on it is broken and locks on targets outside or on the edge of the reticule rather than whats dead center, the missiles themselves track to the bottom of the vehicle so even minor bumps will stop them unless you fire from a significant height, rate of fire is slower than a forge gun as well since you can not bring your reticle back up to even start the lock on process again until several seconds have passed oh and did I mention this limitation even extends to reloading As for damage remember you will need to get through a vehicles shields first and the swarm launcher does a pitiful amount of damage to shields so you will likely use up a clip just to bring them down and get to experience that wonderful delay before reloading and then the time it takes to lock on again Tsch, some people, they think just because a weapon locks its easy mode and never consider the plethora of problems it has that defeats that perk The weapon makes 180 degree turns mid-flight. 60 degree...yeah sure I can see that, but anything more than 90 degrees is physically impossible to do in the space of 0.25m. And have you ever seen a swarm actually catch up to something that was able to pass by it close enough that it would turn that abruptly because I sure as hell havent Have I fired at dropships and seen them step on the gas passing the slow moving cluster, it pulling a 180 and never catching up, sure have Have I shot at LAVs that have played chicken with the swarm with the swarm again pulling a 180 but being left behind in the dust and thanks to its wonderful tracking fly itself straight into the ground trying to pursue the LAV, you bet your ass I have Now you might be wondering why I still use it since it has all these drawbacks and Ill tell you two reasons, first being that I can use it on a medium suit and second that it is good for scaring away tanks even though I could empty all my swarms at them and not destroy the tank but then again the majority of tank drivers will get frightened by their own shadows and hightail it back to the redline let alone see even a militia level swarm in the air Yes I've seen it happen. Now, inb4 NO YOU DON'T USE SWARMS, I do. The reason Dropships outrun your swarms wasn't because they "just stepped on the gas", it was because they were already moving and had picked up momentum, or had managed to get high enough to use gravity to build momentum for them. What? Player Skill > Ezmode Swarms. I believe I'm a pretty good LAV driver, quite enjoy it and despite this, will always be able to be hit by ezmode swarms, even if I drive past someone, who's fired their swarms off, they'll go past me and then chase me, even if you can't see it (dem visual glitches, woo) they'll hit me. Want to know why we're frightened of our "own shadow"? Because we spend 10x as much as you in a single fit. I actually had a debate with some corpmates and Taz (You know, swarm launcher lord.) and when I told them how much my tank cost at a Standard Level, they shut their mouths when I did the math and they realized despite dying 6 times, they still cost me more than what it cost them.
Poplo Furuya Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2013.06.17 09:54:00 - [15] - Quote Benari Kalidima wrote: Golda Go wrote: Stupidest suggestion I've ever seen. No one will play as type 1/3. blitzkrieg? The sensible approach to a HAV advance is with a corresponding infantry advance, the HAV provides a threat that causes the enemy infantry to hunker down and partly divert manpower to AV, giving allied infantry more leeway to advance. For this you want the best heavy weapons platform available, tough and hard to displace while best able to punish even a momentary emergence by the enemy. Type 2 does this best. That said it is currently all about power projection. There are no game modes at present that put a dominant focus on an objective. If there was then an ability to make a strategic push to seize an objective at the expense of overall power projection might actually be useful. Currently it is not.
Charlotte O'Dell Molon Labe. League of Infamy 513	Posted - 2013.06.17 10:40:00 - [16] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Now, see, this is an example of a sane thread from someone who knows what they're talking about. +1. I agree with pretty much all of your points here. What do you think of the engineering skill and it not giving 5% PG per level? Well, it's hard to say, right now, without the higher tiered tanks. More than anything, what it does is compress the SP gap between old and new tankers, but the Old Guard are still wrecking the newer tankers at every turn. CCP needs to accept that the experienced tankers will always win against new ones, whether they have significantly better passive skills or not. For example, I have >11 mil SP, but i have only invested 6.5, and that is spread equally across caldari havs, gallente havs, and caldari LLAVs, and even against tankers who dropped 8, 9, 10 and upward into their skills, I'm still winning almost all of those battles. Even against really good tankers who specialized into one variety, it'll end up as a stalemate because the passive skills mean nothing, right now. So to answer your question, I'm gonna say yes, I want the old engineering skill back, but not because of the AV/Tank balance, but because of the non-existent SP gap between new and old tankers. On the subject of passive damage skills, it works really nicely with tank on tank combat, as it's not call of duty mixed with world of tanks anymore, but much more fun and closer to what the infantry do (low dps, high hp). Perhaps, a better alternative would be turret-specific bonuses. Like, for missiles, increasing missiles/volley, reload time, splash, and velocity. For hybrid: cool down reduction, range, zoom, and increased RoF. Adding capacitors to vehicles would definitely increase the depth of vehicle combat, as managing capacitor use in eve is an integral part of fighting.
Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe Planetary Response Organisation 359	Posted - 2013.06.17 11:33:00 - [17] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Adding capacitors to vehicles would definitely increase the depth of vehicle combat, as managing capacitor use in eve is an integral part of fighting. This is the elephant in the room, right here. Almost any balance discussion wrt vehicles is pretty irrelevant until vehicle capacitor is implemented. The changes to vehicle gameplay will just be too drastic.
Charlotte O'Dell Molon Labe. League of Infamy 518	Posted - 2013.06.17 13:09:00 - [18] - Quote Alan-Ibn-Xuan Al-Alasabe wrote: Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Adding capacitors to vehicles would definitely increase the depth of vehicle combat, as managing capacitor use in eve is an integral part of fighting. This is the elephant in the room, right here. Almost any balance discussion wrt vehicles is pretty irrelevant until vehicle capacitor is implemented. The changes to vehicle gameplay will just be too drastic. I'm scared :( If this is included, I better be able to remove blueberries from my turrets because ill be damned if they drain my capacitor by shooting at the mcc. This also might give missiles the boost they need, and knock blasters and rails down a peg. Still, it could go either way as beneficial or not for tanks, and vehicles in general- especially if theyre linked to mobility.


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