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Fiddlestaxp
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Posted - 2013.06.17 04:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Let us compare Total Splash Damage Given to a Single Target of the MD and Flaylock. I will compare the damage done at a few key times. Those points being the ones at which the MD and flaylock fire all the shots in their clips and when they complete the reload cycle.
0 seconds(First shot)
215.5 - Core Flaylock
127.6 - Freedom Mass Driver
1 second after time of engagement.(Second shot for mass driver.)
643.5 dmg - Core Flaylock
382.8 dmg - Freedom Mass Driver
Since CCP has neglected to give us a rate of fire on the Flaylock, I will be using "1 second" as the time it takes for the flaylock to clear it's clip. I am picking this number because it is a high estimate of the time it takes.
At this point in the engagement, if you armor or speed tank, you are probably dead if they were using a core flaylock.
3.5 seconds (Core flaylock finishes reload cycle, but hasn't fired) after engagement.
642.5 dmg - Core Flaylock
510.4 dmg - Freedom Mass Driver (Four shots).
Uh oh. The Mass driver never catches up to the flaylock in damage output even after the flaylock's first reload. This is going to get ugly by the time the mass driver gets to the same point the flaylock is here now.
5 seconds (Flaylock finished with second barrage and MD fires sixth shot)
1285 dmg - Core flaylock
1020.8 dmg - Freedom Mass Driver (Six shots).
7 Seconds (Third flaylock barrage complete)
1930.5 - Core Flaylock
1020.8 - Freedom Mass Driver ( Two seconds into reload)
10.5 Seconds (Fourth Flaylock Barrage and Mass Driver has reloaded and taken two additional shots)
2574 dmg- Core Flaylock
1276 dmg - Freedom Mass Driver
Total DPS accounting for reloading
642.5 /3.5 = 183.57 - Core Flaylock
1020.8/9.0=113.42- Freedom Mass Driver
I'm going to stop now, because I think I have enough info to make my point and I am getting tired of doing maths.
The Core flaylock does too much burst and sustained damage. At no point in the engagement does the mass driver out damage the flaylock and over time, the flaylock tends to do significantly (60%) more damage. The flaylock does more damage without mods or proficiency skill than a mass driver with maxed proficiency and two damage mods.
And this is all with a high estimate of rate of fire. |
Fiddlestaxp
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Posted - 2013.06.17 04:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
I may wish to compare them further. |
Fiddlestaxp
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95
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Posted - 2013.06.17 05:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
Does anyone think that my 1 second estimate of the time it takes to unload a flaylock clip is too low?
That is the lynchpin of my argument. CCP, how about we actually include basic information required to make logical choices next time... |
Fiddlestaxp
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97
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Posted - 2013.06.17 05:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cruor Abominare wrote:Fiddlestaxp wrote:Does anyone think that my 1 second estimate of the time it takes to unload a flaylock clip is too low?
That is the lynchpin of my argument. CCP, how about we actually include basic information required to make logical choices next time... It's roughly 2.5 seconds which changes things dramatically. Though I find it weird that they get compared so often since they're used in incredibly different roles. Everyone just see lerk shplashh weppin! And assumes they're the same.
Not Reload. I know it doesn't take 2.5 seconds to fire the 3 shots.
And I am almost sure that I am comparing apples with apples.
They are both projectile explosive weapons that are equipped by infantry.. If you can't compare these two guns, then I'm not sure that you can compare any two guns. |
Fiddlestaxp
TeamPlayers
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99
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Posted - 2013.06.17 05:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
I want numbers. I want someone with video capture to figure this out.
Or CCP could just tell us. Like they should have in the first place. This information should have been in the patch notes. This information should be in the game. Gaston's Forge has the same issue currently, but that value was included in previous builds? and is known. |
Fiddlestaxp
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99
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Posted - 2013.06.17 21:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
I am bumping this. Self- Bump. |
Fiddlestaxp
TeamPlayers
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99
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Posted - 2013.06.17 22:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Spademan wrote:Not saying that this doesnt need to be looked at, but I would just like to point out the mass drivers blast radius, can be quite nifty against groups. And the fact that they are very different weapons.
They have the same advantages and disadvantages. As range increases, the MD becomes relatively more powerful until the Flaylock hits max range, where the mass driver finally overtakes it.
The Flaylock is actually better at the traditional mass driver role shooting straight down on people... It's projectiles are faster and does significantly more damage. At significant range the mass drivers travel time makes hitting people into a guessing game. Where are they going to be in 4 seconds? Are they going to run for cover?
The blast radius *is* significantly better than the Flaylock's. At close range I am going to hit you in the feet with either of them. Hitting multiple people with blasts is difficult. Player's bodies block the explosion from hitting other players. The Flaylock is 60% more effective in close quarters battles (A great deal of battles). The mass driver nerf affected it most at medium/long range. It has always been a guessing game, but now you just aren't right as often as you would like and the damage payout is minimal. They are outside of flux range and you are mostly just making them feel uncomfortable more than anything. Hitting people behind cover is also significantly more difficult
The burst damage on the flaylock is incredible. I am pretty sure it hard counters Heavy +Logi healing combos. And armor tanks. And scouts, and is still very effective against everyone else. All for 2 PG in a side arm slot. |
Fiddlestaxp
TeamPlayers
EoN.
99
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Posted - 2013.06.17 22:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lets take a look at the Min proto assault with 1 damage mod, rank 5 proficiency and two flaylocks.
Flaylock shot output 3-->4
X 2 for the second flaylock
=8
214.5 damage *1.15 * 1.10 =271.34
271.34 x 8 shots =2170.72 damage
Im pretty sure they can do that before you can kill them. And that is two players worth of damage. That guy just soloed you and your buddy. He can do half of that again in 2.5 or all of it again in 5.
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Fiddlestaxp
TeamPlayers
EoN.
100
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Posted - 2013.06.17 22:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
xjumpman23 wrote:Cosgar wrote:xjumpman23 wrote:weeks ago I said the flaylock was a noob tube and I still stand by that. Except this is a buff MD thread, not a nerf Flaylock QQ... Core flaylock needs more PG and CPU to be in line with the other side arms. Whoever was the dumbass that decided to make it so you can fit it on any proto build should be fired.
2 PG is not enough to force players to make a decision. The PG is so low that it makes 5 ranks of Pistol Fitting Optimization have literally no effect. Over a million SP for a talent that does nothing. Because it is already costs you so little that 25% doesn't even get the number round loving that it wants so badly but daddy just has better things to do.
Players with sidearm slots usually have to make a choice. Suit fittings usually come right up to PG cap. Do they equip a sidearm? A PROTO sidearm? The choice is clear now. Flaylock is clearly the most powerful of the sidearms and is more powerful than many light weapons. |
Fiddlestaxp
TeamPlayers
EoN.
100
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Posted - 2013.06.17 22:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
I don't think this is a buff mass driver thread. The 60% damage gap and 700% difference in PG requirements certainly seem to leave open the possibility that both the flaylock is overpowered and the mass driver underpowered, but I want us to focus on realizing that there *IS* a problem and it is very likely that the flaylock is too powerful. Way too powerful.
If you were to compare DPS/PG requirements the numbers would cause dust's esrb rating to go up. |
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Fiddlestaxp
TeamPlayers
EoN.
100
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Posted - 2013.06.18 19:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
I would still like an answer from CCP or a CPM about flaylock rate of fire and the PG requirements.
What is the flaylock pistol's rate of fire? Why wasn't this information included in the game. Is it not important? Did you rush it? Whose job is it to check and make sure that this information is included?
Given the flaylock pistol's obvious effectiveness as a sidearm, what reasoning did you use when you decided that the flaylock pistol should only require 2 PG. The CPU is more or less in line with other sidearms that are in many cases equally or less useful than the core flaylock, but the PG requirement of the core flaylock(Proto) is more in line with the Toxin Submachine gun(BPO STD). This would be fine If the Core flaylock was designed to be less effective than the other sidearms, but it is clearly not. Flaylock pistols act as a hard counter to armor and speed tanks, while the scrambler pistol acts as a moderate counter to shields and SMG as a generalist role. Neither of the two main alternatives to the CFP preform their roles as well as it. So it ends up having a bare-bones PG req and also being super effective at its role. You need to balance it out somewhere. It can't have comparable CPU to other sidearms, be very effective, AND have STD level PG requirements for the Core Flaylock. |
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