DUST Search - Global respec with Chromosome 1.2?

KingBabar wrote:

Cass Barr wrote:

I don't think I've seen anyone post a single good reason for having no respecs, across multiple threads.

Every argument against them that I've seen all boil down to, "but that's how EvE does it, so it's the right way."

Now it appears the Devs are going to go the "no respecs" route, and that's their prerogative. It's also yet another entry on their long list of mistakes that is driving casuals and non-EvE fans away.

But hey that list is getting pretty long at this point so I suppose getting too worked up over a single line item on it is a waste of time at this point.

But it's still a mistake.

+1

Thats just it. This community is more or less split in two by the FPS crowd and the EVE crowd.

As a member of the FPS part of the crowd its really hard for us to understand the general HTFU mentality of the EVE crowd. They say they want it to be a no mercy hardcore shooter, yet they still seem to mostly be in favor of every small step this game has taken to reduce actual player skill. We all want this game to be as good as possible and we all want it to succeed. That you guys keep defending obviously broken stuff as "design choices", like the current LAV situation, just goes beyond me. Yes I can adapt or die, no problem... The issue should rather be; "do we really want a shooter to be designd in a way that make murdertaxying a viable option for coming on top of the list every single game? Do we want an FPS game where getting run over by a jeep is the biggest threath on the battlefield? A little more constructive input and a little less "adapt or die" would go a long way.

And about the current topic:

I am very much in favor of choices that have concequences and the whole idea that smart decisions should be benefitial. I for one, was dead set on runnng a scout MD combo since its the most fun I've had in Dust. But I was clever enough to check out the stats before spending skillpoints and chose to get my old AR back instead. I have wastd lvl 2 and 3 on remote explosives, the rest of my skillpoints are "perfectly placed" as far as I'm concerned, I don't need a respec as it is now.

My main gripe is that they keep changing stuff for the wrong reasons and definately in the wrong way. If all of CCPs adjustments where like the resent TAC nerf, I wouldn't have any problem with no more respects. But as long as CCP keeps over nerfing and buffing stuff to the extremes, even things that no one wanted, it gets frustraiting.

We should get respects until the point where most of the basic content is out and as long as its somewhat stable in output. (Semi-balanced at least) When they have brought this game up to a decent level they can say: "The next patch will bring the last ever respec, we won't fiddle with any stats, just add some more maps. This is the last respec you get, chose wisely."

In short: When this game gets factually released, (not technically) then I'm ok with no more respects.


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A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 158	Posted - 2013.06.13 19:32:00 - [1] - Quote Considering all the problems CCP is having with the Respecs it may be easier for them to Respec everybody rather than individuals or a specific skill tree. I will not say whether I agree or disagree with Respecs in general but if they can not process everybody who requested one by the time Uprising 1.2 then a full Respec for everyone would be a final line under the matter. Finally based on evidence it seems far easier for CCP to do a global Respec rather than a targeted one.
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 158	Posted - 2013.06.13 21:24:00 - [2] - Quote Jin Robot wrote: A'Real Fury wrote: Considering all the problems CCP is having with the Respecs it may be easier for them to Respec everybody rather than individuals or a specific skill tree. I will not say whether I agree or disagree with Respecs in general but if they can not process everybody who requested one by the time Uprising 1.2 then a full Respec for everyone would be a final line under the matter. Finally based on evidence it seems far easier for CCP to do a global Respec rather than a targeted one. The problem with that is uprising 1.2 is not the last update. If they allow a respec for it they set a precedent of respecs because of updates. Why isnt this understood? I wasn't referring to updates I only mentioned the Respecs that a number of people requested but never received. Based on what people are saying on the forums it appears that CCP have stopped communicating with their player base on this matter. Uprising 1.2 should be the deadline for resolving this matter. If CCP can not manage to grant those remaining players the Respec they wanted by early july then do a global Respec by Uprising 1.2 (early July) and have done. So I never said a new Respec for every update only that they need to resolve the current Respec by a specific deadline. This Respec issue has been going on long enough as is.
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 158	Posted - 2013.06.13 22:00:00 - [3] - Quote KingBabar wrote: Cass Barr wrote: I don't think I've seen anyone post a single good reason for having no respecs, across multiple threads. Every argument against them that I've seen all boil down to, "but that's how EvE does it, so it's the right way." Now it appears the Devs are going to go the "no respecs" route, and that's their prerogative. It's also yet another entry on their long list of mistakes that is driving casuals and non-EvE fans away. But hey that list is getting pretty long at this point so I suppose getting too worked up over a single line item on it is a waste of time at this point. But it's still a mistake. +1 Thats just it. This community is more or less split in two by the FPS crowd and the EVE crowd. As a member of the FPS part of the crowd its really hard for us to understand the general HTFU mentality of the EVE crowd. They say they want it to be a no mercy hardcore shooter, yet they still seem to mostly be in favor of every small step this game has taken to reduce actual player skill. We all want this game to be as good as possible and we all want it to succeed. That you guys keep defending obviously broken stuff as "design choices", like the current LAV situation, just goes beyond me. Yes I can adapt or die, no problem... The issue should rather be; "do we really want a shooter to be designd in a way that make murdertaxying a viable option for coming on top of the list every single game? Do we want an FPS game where getting run over by a jeep is the biggest threath on the battlefield? A little more constructive input and a little less "adapt or die" would go a long way. And about the current topic: I am very much in favor of choices that have concequences and the whole idea that smart decisions should be benefitial. I for one, was dead set on runnng a scout MD combo since its the most fun I've had in Dust. But I was clever enough to check out the stats before spending skillpoints and chose to get my old AR back instead. I have wastd lvl 2 and 3 on remote explosives, the rest of my skillpoints are "perfectly placed" as far as I'm concerned, I don't need a respec as it is now. My main gripe is that they keep changing stuff for the wrong reasons and definately in the wrong way. If all of CCPs adjustments where like the resent TAC nerf, I wouldn't have any problem with no more respects. But as long as CCP keeps over nerfing and buffing stuff to the extremes, even things that no one wanted, it gets frustraiting. We should get respects until the point where most of the basic content is out and as long as its somewhat stable in output. (Semi-balanced at least) When they have brought this game up to a decent level they can say: "The next patch will bring the last ever respec, we won't fiddle with any stats, just add some more maps. This is the last respec you get, chose wisely." In short: When this game gets factually released, (not technically) then I'm ok with no more respects. +1
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 158	Posted - 2013.06.14 15:07:00 - [4] - Quote Hi, Does anybody have any ideas on New player retention? From what I can tell our numbers appear to be relatively static but my concern is that we currently have quite high retention among vets (closed beta and open beta who continued to play through to now) and a correspondingly low retention among new players (those who started playing around the time of uprising). Now I am arguing for Respecs to be introduced, at least for now, based on these reasons: 1. Large changes to balance are affecting entire classes e.g. Dropship pilots as well as multiple weapons. If it were one weapon then no big deal but when it is several weapons and one or more of the major classes it becomes a significant issue. 2. If new player retention is low and we now have long term supporters starting to burn out, become frustrated to the point of giving up then we will see very real drops in player numbers as no one is replacing the vets. Until the broad and large scale balancing issues are resolved we should receive Respecs because it is not just 3 months to 6 months to move to another class because yours got nerfed but rather another 3-6 months on top of the time you have already played only to see your toon effectively destroyed, made to be Un-Fun, with no guarantee that the new fitting will not be nerfed before you even complete it. As to new classes e.g. MTACs, Jets or something like an infiltrator class I do not agree that we should get a Respec. So long as CCP does not make another class a pre-req to get into the new content then it should not be a problem I.e. do not make dropships a pre-req for Jets or requiring that the player skill into the pilot suit. Instead the Dropship Skill & Pilot suit would give additional bonuses to using a jet but they should not be essential to flying one. Again the same for MTACs you should not have to have skilled into LAVs or HAVs to skill into MTACs and so on. I understand the whole idea of having a guiding idea or principle that affects everything a developer produces e.g. Your decisions matter and are permanent but this guiding principle developed in another game should not be used as a reason something should not be done when it affects the survivability of the game. The expectation people have from an FPS console game are very different from their expectations for other types of games. You need to identify and cater to the needs and desires of your target audience. And no this is not entitlement this is about selling a product. Look what happened when Apple introduced iPods, iTunes, and the iPhone and remember what happened to their competitors at the time. Quite a few of these competitors still haven't regained, in market share, what they lost. CCP at this moment is on the cusp of a major change in the games market. Fortunately for them it is a fairly easy to identify change unlike the above example. They need to find a means of keeping and growing their player base before it is too late. At the moment nothing significant will change until the 3rd quarter when all the games developers release their products for the Christmas period. What has changed is that a lot of possible customers will start to save their money for the new consoles as well as the games they want to play on it. Do not forget it is not just the console you need to buy but the promotional packages, if they contain the primary games you want, or if they are not part of the deal then the extra $60-100 you need for each of these games. These people will now be less willing to spend their disposable income and most of their excitement will be directed towards this Christmas. Finally whether you like it or not it is the FPS crowd who will determine whether Dust is a success or not. I also play eve and I read the forums there as well and the number of times I have read that they do not understand the appeal of FPS games or just want Dust killed off because it is taking resources and time away from Eve is amazing. As such CCP should be less concerned with the Eve way of doing things or how eve players think the game should evolve or be played or more with how their Dust players feel. Of course CCP may not be thinking about the eve crowd when they develope this game I am just concerned that they may be. The Eve way of doing things may not be enough for Dust. If Respecs help us to keep players at this time then I see it as a good reason to do it. Sorry for the wall of text just a bit concerned and worried about the future of Dust.
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 159	Posted - 2013.06.14 16:33:00 - [5] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Kitten Commander wrote: jenza aranda wrote: KingBabar wrote: If only Jenza and Saber could be as intellegent and thoughtful in their forum appearance as you and Kain, the CPM would have the communitys respect. /le sigh I have allready explained my opinion on respecs, in detail, on many of the other CAN HAZ RESPC or AURUM RESPEC threads that are around and frankly I'm getting tired of them. I really cant be assed to put a serious post to every bad post that comes around. I dont see why you are against this. It would allow you to respec your corp into something meaningful since you have obviously been nerfed. A lot of us, especially those who have grown use to Eve Online, are just not willing to violate our own principles just for the sake of growing the player base. This is great when you have a growing and paying player base which Eve does. Dust does not have a growing player base, currently it appears to be static, and more people are less willing to invest money in this F2P game. Hold to your position, you may even be right, but if you are wrong then watch as the player base decreases and the game drops below the level of economic viability and CCP either reduces the resources devoted to this game or ends the project all together. If the veteran players start to leave and are not replaced by new players then the drop in numbers will not be steady and slow. As players see their friends, clans, and groups leave then so will they and as more leave the process accelerates into a flood. The Eve way of doing things may not be best for Dust. This is a completly different game from Eve and should be treated as a such. I assume as it is a matter of principle you would rather see Dust fail rather than violate it. If this is true then this is good for you but bad for Dust and the money making business that CCP is. CCP needs to adapt to this new enterprise or more effectively manage the expectations, desires, and demands of its current and potential future player base. If CCP, and the eve player base, can not Adapt then Dust will surely die or be that minor expansion to Eve a few players have heard about but have no interest in playing and certainly not pay into for boosters etc. I think Dust has the potential to be a very good game but holding such strong opinions or principles when it comes to ensuring whether a product is profitable can be risky.
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 161	Posted - 2013.06.14 17:01:00 - [6] - Quote Tony Calif wrote: Still waiting for someone to state a good reason for a respec except for "they Nerfz . How about player retention? The player base does not appear to be growing. At best as far as I can tell it is static. Now if it were static at 50k or better then no big deal but at less than 9k maximum this becomes a concern. While CCP works on patches, updates, and expansions they need to at least keep the player base they have while also working on ways to bring in and Keep new players. At this moment a Respec will make at least some of their customer base happy while everything is worked out. A happy player base will be more willing to stay and possibly even spend some more money. Taking no or limited action that does not act to keep said player base will see this game drop to an even lower number than we currently have. A Respec is not the goal but a means to an end. The goal at the moment is to keep the currently small player base Dust has while coming up with a solution to bring in and keep new players. Until then do what is necessary to keep this game alive. A Respec does very limited harm but has a reasonably decent pay out in terms of keeping some players involved with the game. At the end of the day CCP needs to see a profit from Dust and it needs to secure the present, let alone the future of this game. At the end of the day Dust 514 is a product created by a for profit organisation utilising the F2P micro transaction economic model. A Respec will help CCP make money now and possibly in the future. It increases their chances of Dust having a future and does very little harm either in the short term or long term. My question to you is what Economic reason do you have against having Respecs if it improves Dust chances of continuing?
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 161	Posted - 2013.06.14 17:06:00 - [7] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: A'Real Fury wrote: CCP needs to adapt to this new enterprise or more effectively manage the expectations, desires, and demands of its current and potential future player base. If CCP, and the eve player base, can not Adapt then Dust will surely die or be that minor expansion to Eve a few players have heard about but have no interest in playing and certainly not pay into for boosters etc. I know a LOT of gamers both online and off, and talk to them frequently about my favorite games. I used to constantly talk about DUST to them and try to explain its potential and that it was cool and unique. Now? I tell them to make an account and a character so they can be getting passive SP, but other than that, just stay far away for right now. I feel it's better to not draw much attention to DUST in its current state. It's best if we don't see too many new players, because first impressions are critical, and DUST's is well....dusty Sorry to say that is what I have done as well.
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 171	Posted - 2013.06.15 20:22:00 - [8] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: CCP has already made up their minds on this. They made it clear there will be no more respecs. No. More. Respecs. According. To. CCP. I can't understand why you keep pushing this. It is being pushed because a segment of the player base want it. CCP does not have to give one if they do not want to but what is true now may change with time. The reasons vary for wanting them as part of the game, at least at this point in time, from wildly and changing unbalanced fittings with each update/fix, player retention, making the game fun during this volatile period, to people that have not received the Respecs they requested before the deadline. Now the reasons given for not giving a Respec have been this is not how we do it in eve, HTFU, it's a matter of principle, just NO, and one that I actually do understand and that is your decisions should have consequences. The only problem with the last reason is that our actions do not have consequences but CCP's does e.g. Dropships, LAVs, HMG, Laser Rifles and to a lesser extent the Heavy and Scouts, and the PG/CPU sink. Now you could say Adapt or Die but how many times will you keep on grinding SP so you can move onto a new build, and not because you chose a bad build, but because it was radically rebalanced by CCP and it might happen every month. And please understand that if you are being forced to change suits/roles because of a nerf then it will feel like a grind because it was not your choice to skill into something else. However, CCP has already achieved something rare and that is keep a decent number of players playing a FPS constantly for over a year. The problem though is those who were most heavily invested in the idea of Dust are starting to give up and move on. The percentage of the closed beta group that feel this way may be large or small, I have no idea, but if it is large then CCP may be looking at real problems. After closed beta players you have the open beta vets and by definition they are less invested in this product and will find it much easier to move on if they are not finding the game fun. As for the new players since uprising came on the scene how many of them are still here? My concern is that by the end of the year that Dust will have a player base of 2-3k and that's it. These 2-3k will continue to gain SP and any new player who joins at that point will be facing vets with 20-40 mil SP or running around an Academy with a couple hundred others getting bored, due to small new player count, before leaving. I think that Respecs during this period of balancing could make this game fun and help maintain the current player base. CCP will need to do something else when it comes to keeping new players around. But as you have stated CCP does not have to do anything it does not want to but that doesn't mean we can not try and convince them a particular idea would be good for their profit margins on this product. Either way I have had my money's worth from this game. I have never put this many hours into playing a single console FPS Game, over the last 6 months, as I have done in Dust 514. Hell, I rarely play any FPS console game for 6 months straight so congrats to CCP and I really hope I will have a reason to continue to play into the future.