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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
199
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 14:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
After a brief discussion in IRC and a link to this video led me to write this post. Now the forums have been running amok with posts about balance, me being one those forumers. But let me diverge on my definition of balance, and more recently better defined perfect imbalance, in Dust 514 dropsuits.
In Dust 514 we can see what every dropsuit was meant to do by looking at its base stats, module distribution, and its EVE cousin.
Amarr: The Amarr dropsuits where made to be tanks in the battlefield, slow but with incomparably high EHP. The EVE cousin was made to do the same thing but with the option to also give Amarr ships the ability to be speedy while maintaining medium-high EHP, obviously a heavy suit should not be able to do this but this fits more with the Amarr assault suit playstyle, unfortunately they are pre penalized in speed for having high base EHP, but their base EHP does not account for the low module distribution.
Minmatar: The Minmatar are extremely versatile dropsuits, even with a odd module distribution. They are the speed tanks, boasting low EHP for high speed, only exceeded by the scouts. The EVE cousin does the exact same thing, and their high speed also gives them the wiggle room to stick very burdening armor modules and still have decent speed.
Caldari: These suits were made for active battle, because they do not rely on armor, and they have very high shield regeneration they can pop in and out of battle at will, and with the ability to sacrifice little to no HP for armor repairers they can have no Logistic dependancy.
Gallente: These suits were made to basically do the same as the Caldari, having the same base stats and module distribution. Because of current issues to armor modules, and this suit being one that strays the furthest from the EVE cousin it is rather subpar. The EVE cousin boasts the 2nd highest ship speed of the races.
Perfect Imbalance:
In short perfect imbalance is making certain game elements excel slightly in different things, thus allowing for better meta game, and better versatility by allowing players the choice on how to counter certain builds or strategies while also being countered themselves. At the moment Dust 514 puts the Caldari as the way-to-go class, there are some ways to counter them in theory but in game they are ineffective.
So how do can Dust 514 have this game element added? Well it would be by following the EVE example as a theoretical not literal schematic. Each race should be able to basically do exactly what the other does, but each one should have one thing they can do better. The Caldari should obviously excel at passive shield tanking, and overall passive tanking, all suits have the ability to do the same but because of how limiting armor is compared to shields it forces an extremely wide gap forcing the suits to stick to other forms of gameplay that might not even favor the player himself. The Amarr should excel at buffer tanking, but should have the ability to be able to switch to a more mobile fitting in lieu of having high HP. The Minmatar should excel at speed tanking, and have the ability to sacrifice their speed to bring up their HP. The Gallente should excel at passive armor tanking, but also with the ability to be buffer tanks with high mobility.
This is my idea of the perfect imbalance that is needed in Dust 514 when it comes to dropsuits, in IRC it came to me that we currently have a forced gameplay, forcing people away from their form of gameplay because of limits to their suit. A Gallente character would probably enjoy being able to passive tank like a Caldari, obviously not as good but closely enough, unfortunately this gamepley for a Gallente is extremely crippling with extremely high drawbacks. A Amarrian character would probably enjoy giving up HP for speed but because of their low slot distribution this put them at comparable HP or lower to other suits making them bullet fodder.
Shield vs Armor should also be looked at with this in mind, Shield should excel at passive tanking while Armor should excel at buffer tanking; with the ability of each to cross into their territory. Shield tanking cannot be buffer tanks at all, the only way to do this is to add shield modules that have high HP and penalties to shield regen. Armor tanking cannot effectively passive tank without losing crippling amounts of speed and HP, and it cannot effectively buffer tank either because of how high the penalties are. Essentially leaving armor in a in between zone of failure.
To accomplish this type of gameplay some changes to suits, shields, and armor modules need to be made. Obviously this is not the right forum to discuss these changes so I will not add them, I will add links to some helpful threads on the subject.
My ideas on balancing https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86752&find=unread
Fixing the new modules https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86664&find=unread
Overall thread on Shield vs Armor https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=83983&find=unread
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Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1404
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Posted - 2013.06.12 14:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
The problem with trying to establish perfect imbalance:
A) We don't have enough content to do so yet and we're working with placeholders. (Refer to the AR and Heavies) B) There was never an accurate way to gather information on how to balance game mechanics. (Matchmaking) C) We still have a large portion of players that still don't understand that this isn't just an FPS and have no grasp on the metagame through damage types resistances, optimal ranges, and most important of all counterplay. (Refer to Tutorials and every QQ thread in existence)
All three of this issues one time or another could have been resolved months ago in beta. More content, especially for heavies since having one suit and one AV/AI weapon forced the heavy class to be scaled down to medium suits and light weapons. Proper matchmaking would have helped collect better data on what game mechanics needed to be properly adjusted. Tutorials would have been an excellent way to give players a better understanding that this game isn't about being the best at everything ant that everything has a cyclic imbalance.
Sadly, CCP had openly stated that the above weren't their top priorities. Hindsight really is 20/20... |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
200
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 14:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:The problem with trying to establish perfect imbalance: A) We don't have enough content to do so yet and we're working with placeholders. (Refer to the AR and Heavies) B) There was never an accurate way to gather information on how to balance game mechanics. (Matchmaking) C) We still have a large portion of players that still don't understand that this isn't just an FPS and have no grasp on the metagame through damage types resistances, optimal ranges, and most important of all counterplay. (Refer to Tutorials and every QQ thread in existence) All three of this issues one time or another could have been resolved months ago in beta. More content, especially for heavies since having one suit and one AV/AI weapon forced the heavy class to be scaled down to medium suits and light weapons. Proper matchmaking would have helped collect better data on what game mechanics needed to be properly adjusted. Tutorials would have been an excellent way to give players a better understanding that this game isn't about being the best at everything ant that everything has a cyclic imbalance. Sadly, CCP had openly stated that the above weren't their top priorities. Hindsight really is 20/20...
Well at the moment there isn't any proper form of metagame or counterplay. Except for PC strategy, and that only goes so far. |
xjumpman23
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
325
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Posted - 2013.06.12 14:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
DUST514 had perfect imbalance in the private trials. CCP only needed to work on the core, but that never really happened. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1404
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Posted - 2013.06.12 14:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Well at the moment there isn't any proper form of metagame or counterplay. Except for PC strategy, and that only goes so far. I'm referring to the other meaning of metagame that involves the FotM, and cyclic metagaming you see in a lot of PVP based MMORPGs and MOBAs. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
201
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 14:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Well at the moment there isn't any proper form of metagame or counterplay. Except for PC strategy, and that only goes so far. I'm referring to the other meaning of metagame that involves the FotM, and cyclic metagaming you see in a lot of PVP based MMORPGs and MOBAs.
Oh... this is true but this is why I believe all suits should be able to do the same but with the fact that some suits can do it better. This will give people who really don't give a crap, or don't understand this, the ability to be what they want to be and not be severely underpowered or overpowered and those who want to play meta a small advantage. |
Kitten Empress
Ametat Security Amarr Empire
486
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Posted - 2013.06.12 14:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
xjumpman23 wrote:DUST514 had perfect imbalance in the private trials. CCP only needed to work on the core, but that never really happened. I want that Dust 514. Not this POS of a game we have now. And no, I don't mean player owned structure. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
201
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Posted - 2013.06.12 14:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kitten Empress wrote:xjumpman23 wrote:DUST514 had perfect imbalance in the private trials. CCP only needed to work on the core, but that never really happened. I want that Dust 514. Not this POS of a game we have now. And no, I don't mean player owned structure.
Even though this is not what you mean , this game is far from player owned. If it was Devs would listen to player ideas more closely and it would be fixed by now, removing development time. |
Panther Alpha
Lone Wolf Going Solo
493
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Posted - 2013.06.12 14:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Kitten Empress wrote:xjumpman23 wrote:DUST514 had perfect imbalance in the private trials. CCP only needed to work on the core, but that never really happened. I want that Dust 514. Not this POS of a game we have now. And no, I don't mean player owned structure.
Game development should be a Dictatorship... not Anarchy. Democracy will work too.. but when is the last time we have voted for anything is Dust 514 ? |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
201
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 14:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Panther Alpha wrote:Kitten Empress wrote:xjumpman23 wrote:DUST514 had perfect imbalance in the private trials. CCP only needed to work on the core, but that never really happened. I want that Dust 514. Not this POS of a game we have now. And no, I don't mean player owned structure. Game development should be a Dictatorship... not Anarchy. Democracy will work too.. but when is the last time we have voted for anything is Dust 514 ?
Isn't it a Dictatorship already, the Game devs are the rulers who choose what is and what isn't. |
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Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1405
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 15:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Oh... this is true but this is why I believe all suits should be able to do the same but with the fact that some suits can do it better. This will give people who really don't give a crap, or don't understand this, the ability to be what they want to be and not be severely underpowered or overpowered and those who want to play meta a small advantage. That's another issue, the meta game shouldn't be a choice, it should be the only choice. The only reason I'm not completely crap at this game is because I do little things like use flux grenades with kinetic/explosive weapons, engage heavies outside their optimal range with a (rebalanced) TAC AR, lay out proximity mines when I see a large abundance of murder taxis. I came from 5-8 years of EVE, so I knew what I was getting into on day 1. Imagine if there were an actual tutorial system to explain what was what to players so they knew since day 1. People would probably use more cover while regen tanking instead of trying to play CoD while buffer tanking 24/7 and crying on the forums because they couldn't kill a tank with an AR.
Edit: This is also relevant. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
201
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 15:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:[quote=Cosgar]Oh... this is true but this is why I believe all suits should be able to do the same but with the fact that some suits can do it better. This will give people who really don't give a crap, or don't understand this, the ability to be what they want to be and not be severely underpowered or overpowered and those who want to play meta a small advantage. That's another issue, the meta game shouldn't be a choice, it should be the only choice. The only reason I'm not completely crap at this game is because I do little things like use flux grenades with kinetic/explosive weapons, engage heavies outside their optimal range with a (rebalanced) TAC AR, lay out proximity mines when I see a large abundance of murder taxis. I came from 5-8 years of EVE, so I knew what I was getting into on day 1. Imagine if there were an actual tutorial system to explain what was what to players so they knew since day 1. People would probably use more cover while regen tanking instead of trying to play CoD while buffer tanking 24/7 and crying on the forums because they couldn't kill a tank with an AR.
But we don't have that, we don't have a tutorial explaining all this to us nothing in this game explains what effect your choices have on your character development until it is to late, until you become severely UP because you were following your choice of gameplay. And I believe I used the wrong words when speaking of meta gaming, the post you qouted was referring to my perfect imbalance topic where I believe it should be a choice, this gives those who really want to strategize an edge in the game, but not so big an edge where players who cannot understand or wish not to apply this form of gaming left in the... Dust.
Also in Dust 514 cyclic metagaming and counter play takes months because of how hard it is to switch your gameplay style due to slow SP gains. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1406
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 15:11:00 -
[13] - Quote
More proof that point B) needs to be addressed: Link
Commander Crispy wrote:THey are way to overpower.need to be brought down with other weapons.no way they should be kill someone so fast.please nerf the shotguns in this game. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
201
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 15:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:More proof that point B) needs to be addressed: LinkCommander Crispy wrote:THey are way to overpower.need to be brought down with other weapons.no way they should be kill someone so fast.please nerf the shotguns in this game.
How should this post reaffirm that point B) needs to be addressed, legitimate question. To me it seems he got killed be a shotgun and isn't happy, I am also assuming he isn't a very experienced player. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1407
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 15:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Cosgar wrote:More proof that point B) needs to be addressed: LinkCommander Crispy wrote:THey are way to overpower.need to be brought down with other weapons.no way they should be kill someone so fast.please nerf the shotguns in this game. How should this post reaffirm that point B) needs to be addressed, legitimate question. To me it seems he got killed be a shotgun and isn't happy, I am also assuming he isn't a very experienced player. Exactly. There's no tutorial to teach players about effective ranges and therefore instead of acknowledging, let alone respecting another players niche play style, he decides to cry nerf. History repeats itself again, and again... |
Crash Monster
Snipers Anonymous
572
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 15:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
People getting killed is not a problem. If everyone uses the same weapon/fit and it owns everyone else of similar SP then there probably is an issue.
When there are issues we need to be careful about the nerf bat which leaves people no longer having fun. There is more than one way to change the balance -- and multi-characteristic nerfing is perhaps the easiest and most painful.
Apologies to those who have now read this a dozen times, but an example is the sniper rifle sway that fixes quick scoping. You could alternately have a dispersion effect that fades with "warm up" so that quick scoping is not effective and the endless need to fight against the weapon is not hitting you in the face every time you use it. Remove the problems without making the game less fun. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1411
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 15:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
Crash Monster wrote:People getting killed is not a problem. If everyone uses the same weapon/fit and it owns everyone else of similar SP then there probably is an issue.
When there are issues we need to be careful about the nerf bat which leaves people no longer having fun. There is more than one way to change the balance -- and multi-characteristic nerfing is perhaps the easiest and most painful.
Apologies to those who have now read this a dozen times, but an example is the sniper rifle sway that fixes quick scoping. You could alternately have a dispersion effect that fades with "warm up" so that quick scoping is not effective and the endless need to fight against the weapon is not hitting you in the face every time you use it. Remove the problems without making the game less fun. They're just getting around to doing this recently with the TAC AR. Instead of bringing down the nerf Mjolnir like most of us expected, they tweaked the weapon to make it a longer range option for an already too versatile weapon class without it overpowering the other 3 variants like it did before. I still use the TAC AR, and find it more fun to use because it's not an "I win button" it once was and the other variants are still viable.
But I wish they would have learned to do the same with the laser, HMG, and MD. Instead they completely neutered those weapons, bringing Dust 514 into another step closer to CoD with a shade of futuristic chrome. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
201
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 15:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Crash Monster wrote:People getting killed is not a problem. If everyone uses the same weapon/fit and it owns everyone else of similar SP then there probably is an issue.
When there are issues we need to be careful about the nerf bat which leaves people no longer having fun. There is more than one way to change the balance -- and multi-characteristic nerfing is perhaps the easiest and most painful.
Apologies to those who have now read this a dozen times, but an example is the sniper rifle sway that fixes quick scoping. You could alternately have a dispersion effect that fades with "warm up" so that quick scoping is not effective and the endless need to fight against the weapon is not hitting you in the face every time you use it. Remove the problems without making the game less fun. They're just getting around to doing this recently with the TAC AR. Instead of bringing down the nerf Mjolnir like most of us expected, they tweaked the weapon to make it a longer range option for an already too versatile weapon class without it overpowering the other 3 variants like it did before. I still use the TAC AR, and find it more fun to use because it's not an "I win button" it once was and the other variants are still viable. But I wish they would have learned to do the same with the laser, HMG, and MD. Instead they completely neutered those weapons, bringing Dust 514 into another step closer to CoD with a shade of futuristic chrome.
Well CCP nerfed those before the TACAR so I think they finally learned how to properly nerf, I think they will be tweaking all of those weapons with this new found knowledge. Now on the subject of adding new things to the game they have some work to do. |
Novawolf McDustingham The514th
The Official Mintchip Fanclub
249
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 16:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
I think dropping damage output is one of the worst nerfs you can do.
For instance lasers are pretty useless right now. The better solution would have been to jack up the overheat damage to blow your shield off and do a bit of armor DOT - that's a downside that can be managed by player skill while making the reward match the risk. |
Cosgar
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
1417
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Posted - 2013.06.12 16:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Everything in uprising suffered from big sweeping changes and trying to fix elements that weren't broken to begin with. I hope that they learned from this mistake in the future. Judging by the imbundance of dev threads today, they have. |
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BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
207
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Posted - 2013.06.12 16:43:00 -
[21] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Everything in uprising suffered from big sweeping changes and trying to fix elements that weren't broken to begin with. I hope that they learned from this mistake in the future. Judging by the imbundance of dev threads today, they have.
And every fix comes with a nerf. |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
207
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 17:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
Perfect example of how suits need fixing
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=934032#post934032 |
BL4CKST4R
WarRavens League of Infamy
208
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Posted - 2013.06.12 17:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
bump |
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