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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
180
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Posted - 2013.06.12 02:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
Numbers aside, I think this would be a step in the right direction. Check it out Iron Wolf.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=86590&find=unread
This would be a HUGE bonus to armor tankers, because currently 12 of the 17 modules are on the low side. When the new armor modules are added it will make it 14 out of 19. That is not balance. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
180
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 02:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Well I know there is in theory something very wrong between armor and shields and its a bit lopsided favoring shields but right now the tools required to correct this has not made it into the game yet.
Any hints to what tools you are referring to?
Also what did you think about the adding the Medium Powered Slots, and reassigning some of the modules? |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
221
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Posted - 2013.06.15 21:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
One thing that causes a disparity between shield and armor is shield tankers also gain almost all other tactical advantages that modules can provide. I have outlined this, and suggested a possible solution to the problem.
While this does nothing for the numbers of the new armor modules, it may provide more balance in general to shield vs. armor, thus creating less need for tweaking the numbers on the new modules. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
225
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Posted - 2013.06.16 04:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote: P.S: When I say Armor tank and Shield tank I do not refer to a class who COMPLETELY depends on the tanking style, what I mean is a class who gets the majority of its EHP from said style. No suit should entirely depend on a specific style.
*coughAMARR SENTINELcough* |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
226
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Posted - 2013.06.16 08:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote: P.S: When I say Armor tank and Shield tank I do not refer to a class who COMPLETELY depends on the tanking style, what I mean is a class who gets the majority of its EHP from said style. No suit should entirely depend on a specific style.
*coughAMARR SENTINELcough* Amarr sentinel is a dual tank, the suit comes with 466 base shields. + one high slot and shyte recharge rate. I don't really call that tank. It has about the same base armor. Both are to low for a Sentinel imho, but I digress. 466 shield is nothing for a heavy. We constantly take fire from multiple angles/shooters. That shield is gone in no time. With only 1 high slot you can not beef up shields to ever be able to call it shield tank. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
272
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Posted - 2013.06.19 03:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Some hypothetical numbers here. Take a look. May just be a starting point. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
273
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Posted - 2013.06.19 03:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:
I never called it a shield tank, I called it a dual tank. Also Amarr and Gallente are predominantly armor tanks, I was just pointing out that the Amarr has shields to prove that no class is suited for one tanking style alone.
Splitting Hairs here honestly. Simply looking at the slot layouts one can see the Amarr Sentinel is designed to be armor tank with it's 4L/5H despite what it's base stats are. Granted it has high base shields, but it has the exact same base armor. On top of that it is a Heavy it is supposed to have high base hp, but base hp alone doesn't determine what the suit is designed to tank in. This is determined by the suits ability to buff armor or shield. The Sentinel clearly has a lot more ability to buff armor rather than shields. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
281
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 12:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Well I played with the numbers a little using the existing IWS's spread sheet this morning and this is what I came up with.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Aje8xVYW4a2VdHdhVk9wMGZrUDZLdXNuUTFuelgyaEE&output=html
(couldn't figure out how to tack it onto his) |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
281
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Posted - 2013.06.20 13:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Adjusted Grid for Enhanced Reactive Plates in link above. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
281
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Posted - 2013.06.20 18:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
matsumoto yuichi san wrote:reative is wayy to much pg there i mean i get it being more PG, and i like the hp number sure, but when a suit has 66 base ish pg more than 20 on 1 module is way to much especially since amarr is armor liking and scramblers are 20 pg it's just too much logi are like the only ones that could hope to fit one and not seriously screw wit the fit
The grid is only 4 higher than the stats in the video with a significant amount more HP and Reps. I don't think this is to high at all. They are not mean to be easy to run.
You need to have to spec into them. Let me elaborate. You should be able to run them simply by speccing into armor, but you should need to spec into electronics upgrades, engineering upgrades, and other skills that optimize CPU/PG to be able to use them more effectively. Otherwise everyone would spec right into them and everyone would use them within a month's time, taking away from the depth of character creation. I don't think anyone who would be dedicated to armor tank would have a problem running these if they have their skills in the right place.
Aside from that if you look at the HP/CPU, HP/PG, HP/Fitting, HP/s/CPU, HP/s/PG, and HP/s/Fitting they are perfectly balanced with the other Reactive plates. They are also balanced between the standard Armor Plates in all Tiers, The Ferroscale Armor Plates in all Tiers, and the Armor Repairers in all Tiers. |
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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
281
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Posted - 2013.06.20 18:25:00 -
[11] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:All the numbers you suggested are really wonky and hurt my eyes to sort through this number soup. BL4CKST4R wrote:I messed with your tool a little bit and I made these numbers. This assumes Gallente and Amarr suits will receive buffs to their suits to mitigate speed penalties, and enhance their usage of armor plates to put them on equal footing to shield tanking. http://postimg.org/image/7bm3wn1r5/This assumes all suits will remain as is. http://postimg.org/image/dtf15gean/
If you are talking to me would you care to explain. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
282
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Posted - 2013.06.20 18:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Ferroscales do not bring anything to the table to be worth using with your stats, although the have no movement penalty they have a pretty high CPU/PG cost and the HP is rather low. The CPU/PG costs of reactives are insanely high, I understand your suggesting that plates aren't meant to be stacked, in your opinion, but if that's the case whats the difference between your plates and our plates since our plates can't be stacked either. The HP for reactives is also way to high, they should fall in line with the HP of shield extenders and have very low speed penalties to make it useful for medium armor suits, or front-line suits.
Overall your stats have more penalties than the plates we have now, reactives are rather OP even though they can't be stacked, and instead of balancing it just flips the switch as to why armor tanks cannot compete with shield tanks. Instead of not being able to compete in terms of speed penalties and resistances, it would be the level of weapons and equipment we CAN'T equip because our modules will be hogging all of our resources.
IMO the best balance for the armor would be
Normal plates: High HP-High speed penalty-Low CPU/PG
Ferroscale plates: Medium HP-No penalty-Highest CPU/PG costs (Not by much)
Reactive plates: Low HP-Repair half of a repairer of same tier-Medium CPU/PG costs
Armor repairers: no HP- High repair 2/4/6- CPU/PG costs between reactives and ferroscale.
Ferroscal plates are supposed to do exactly that! They have a decent amount of HP with NO speed penalty. You can't have your cake and eat it to.
I never said you shouldn't be able to stack Reactive Plates, you should simply be ready to invest a very large amount of SP to be able to. I do not think one should simply be able to get a proto Suit and stack as many of whatever module they wish, without speccing into any secondary or tertiary skills to make it possible. The Fitting cost is "Insanely high" because the benefits they offer warrant such a cost.
Your argument is frankly full of contradictions. In one sentence you say that the stats I suggest are to penalizing, then you turn around and say the stats make Plates OP.
Just because you CAN equip something onto your suit, does not make it profitable. Likewise if you CAN'T equip something, it probably means you need to invest into optimization skills in order to be able to.
I don't expect people to be able to get an advanced suit and stack Complex Reactive Plates on it accordint to my numbers. One must invest much SP because of the benefits they offer. That means Having a very good suit with Dropsuit Core Upgrades, Electronics, and Engineering skills built up. That means speccing into your Weapon Fitting Optimization skills. Like I said they shouldn't be available to every single player. You must invest some serious SP.
I currently have about 6.4 mil SP with Armor Skills all at 5, but I don't expect to be able to use the Complex Reactives for quite some time based on these numbers. I don't mind this because it adds to the depth of character development. |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
282
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 19:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:
IMO the best balance for the armor would be
Normal plates: High HP-High speed penalty-Low CPU/PG
agreed
BL4CKST4R wrote:Ferroscale plates: Medium HP-No penalty-Highest CPU/PG costs (Not by much) Makes no sense for the Armor Module with NO speed penalty to have MEDIUM HP compared to other Armor Modules, or for them to have the HIGHEST Fitting Cost for offering the Least overal benefit.
BL4CKST4R wrote:Reactive plates: Low HP-Repair half of a repairer of same tier-Medium CPU/PG costs Makes no sense for Plates with a speed penalty (albeit lower than standard plates' penalty) to have the LOWEST HP. Also makes no sense for Armor Plates that offer a significant amount of HP+Reps with a slight speed penalty NOT to have the highest fitting cost as they offer the most overall benefit.
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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
282
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Posted - 2013.06.20 19:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
I would concede that the numbers for Reactives may be to high and will adjust these. I don't want to make them to squishy though.
That being said how do you feel about my proposed numbers for the other modules? |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
282
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 20:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Master Jaraiya wrote:I would concede that the numbers for Reactives may be to high and will adjust these. I don't want to make them to squishy though.
That being said how do you feel about my proposed numbers for the other modules? Ferroscales are fine in HP, but their CPU/PG should be increased slightly higher than armor repairers. PG of armor repairers should be buffed back to normal, and scale down the penalty of armor plates to be whole numbers because in Dust decimals round up. The HP of normal plates is very good compared to their CPU/PG costs and penalty. Also when I said that reactives should be the same as shield plates its so that they benefit the medium suits the most, while normal plates and ferroscale would benefit heavy suits the most. Of course each suit can choose out of one another like a reactive stacked heavy or a ferro stacked medium, but the idea is to bring medium armor suits in line with the Minmatar and Caldari, and put heavies as the highest EHP by a lot. EDIT: New stats are a bit more reasonable.
I don't understand why you would want them to benefit one class over another.
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Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
282
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 20:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
Well I don't use assault, but I doubt I would dual tank with only 72 PG. I would probably shield tank, add a regulator or two and a utility type module. It doesn't seem viable, at least not for a Gallente.
are you saying the PG costs for Ferroscale and Reactives are still to high? |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
282
|
Posted - 2013.06.20 20:32:00 -
[17] - Quote
LOL @ me!
I know nothing about Assault Suits I'm a Heavy
EDIT: Which probably explains a lot |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
282
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Posted - 2013.06.20 20:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
Just reworked again. I think I brought PG down as much as possible without throwing the balance off of on my model.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Aje8xVYW4a2VdHdhVk9wMGZrUDZLdXNuUTFuelgyaEE&output=html |
Master Jaraiya
Ultramarine Corp
283
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 01:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
Harry Hendersons wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:I personally don't have a problem with the new plate stats.
However, since we're getting another lowslot that repairs armor, I think non-militia armor repair units need to be changed to a highslot and repair significantly more hp/s I second this, militia reppies to high slot is accurate. This is a terrible idea the repper needs to stay in the low slot.
The Amarr Sentinel has only 1 high slot moving the repairer to high would do nothing but Gimp the Sentinel out of any local repping ability. |
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