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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1140
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Posted - 2013.06.12 02:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:If armor has to be dependent upon Logi to survive then armor either needs a very large buffer tank to justify it versus the drawbacks, or you need to bite the bullet, drop shield recharge to almost nothing and introduce a handheld shield transporter so that shield tanks are equally dependant upon Logi to balance them out.
This I believe is the heart of the matter and I unfortunately must concur with your assessment that the new plates (assuming the stats seen are the same as those upon release) do not effectively address the above concept.
Further the issue raised regarding slots has not been touched on whatsoever by the addition of these new plates.
At present there are more Low Power mods to choose from than High Power meaning that the on balance tactical 'cost' of fitting an armor tank is higher than fitting a shield tank. Even were one to content that damage mods are so valuable as to be the equal counter point to Cardiac Regulators, Cardiac Stimulants, CPU Upgrades, Kinetic Catalyzers, PG Upgrades, Profile Dampeners, Range Amplifiers, Shield Regulators it still leaves the biasing situation of shield tanking possessing fittings options drawn from both the high and low powered mod pools while armor is restricted exclusively to low powered lots for fitting. Granted if you can put all our tank needs into the Low Power slots you could stack damage mods, but how practical is that? Let's look at the Amarr Logi, 3 Highs, 3 Lows 97 PG with relevant skills maxed.
Complex Light Damage Modifier 68 CPU 9PG x3 = 204 CPU 27 PG
Complex Reactive Plates 36 CPU 15 PG x3 = 108 CPU 45 PG
Fittings Totals = 312/491 CPU 72/87 PG
That leaves 179 CPU 15 PG to fit a Light Weapon, Sidearm, Grenade, and 3 Equipment slots. To be fair a bit more CPU could be squeezed in by the last level of the related fittings skill I don't have yet, and the cost of a Light Weapon could be reduced via another 5 skill levels, and a bit trimmed off the cost of both Grenades and Sidearms the same way but even with all skills at level 5 it'll be a tight fit and off the top of my head I can't think of a way to do a fully proto fit on these remaining slots (can anyone else?).
Is the message then that +30% damage (minus effects of stacking penalty) and 135 HP armor with 6 HP/s on board rep with a 12% movement penalty (possibly reduced by stacking), is so valuable a stat block that it justifies the inability to complete a full fit even with maximum possible SP invested into all related skills (a total SP investment that off the top of my head I believe comes in at over 14 million SP) and dismissing all the other tactical options sacrificed to fit only plates and damage mods in lows/highs.
Looking at the Remaining characters count it seems this post has more to address than space to do it in so for now I'll just give a summery of the above.
Summery: New plates, while useful, do not address the disparity between armor and shield tanking in either net values (with CPU/PG considered) or slot constraints. Further they do nothing to touch on the internal balance issues with the current plates and seem to directly support neither balancing philosophies presented in the quote above.
If CCP subscribes to a third, different, balance philosophy then I'd ask them to share it so we can both evaluate the mods in their intended context and evaluate the context itself within the reality of current game play.
Cheers,
Cross
EDIT: Source for new info. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1142
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 03:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Spergin McBadposter wrote:Talos Alomar wrote:
unless one of these are high slot, this isn't doing anything to help armor tankers, but also giving shield tanked suits a more compact way to boost their armor for when their shields drop. this is just making it worse.
I just checked again and both types are low slot modules, but reactive plates being high slot modules would push them from terrible to amazing.
Reactive Plates would also be exactly the mod to put in the High Slot as well based on an inverse mirror of the current Shield mod offerings. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1143
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 04:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
One quick additional note, regarding slot layout. The other non-tank items offered on each slot type hold significant implications that are frequently not discussed. There could be an entire thread comparing mods and their placement (it's almost like there actually is ) but for brevity I'll go straight to the heart of the matter. CPU Upgrades, PG Upgrades. These mods allow Mercs to give up a slot for the sake of higher fittings values in PG or CPU, and can only be fit into Low Power slots. This creates a fundamental imbalance within game wide fittings by creating a situation where mercs who Shield Tank can augment their PG/CPU if needed to fit a full tank +weapon, nades et al but those mercs who Armor Tank are left with only the stats on suit use (in both cases SP can improve these values but it does nothing to alter the comparison regarding mods).
In addition to one of the new plates being made a High Power mod (honestly it should be the Reactive Plates) the PG upgrade should be moved into a High Powered slot as well. Shield Tank requires CPU heavy mods and the CPU Upgrade would remain Low Power to provide shield tankers fittings options while the PG Upgrade being in the High Power position would to the same for armor tankers.
If for some reason moving the PG Upgrade to a High Power position is viewed as too big a change, or too detrimental to some other aspect of the game then there's still a simple solution add a version of the Power Diagnostic Units from EVE (and the Dust vehicle mod section ) as a High Power mod. This mod would grant some additional PG but at a lessor rate than the PG Upgrades mod, it would also give a small buff to shields and shield recharge (or really any two f the shield stats whatever works best for proper balance). This would create a slightly better set of options for hybrid tanking from the armor side which would be in line with the new hybrid options offered to shield tankers buy the Ferroscale Plates and elevate the PG hardcap that currently exists.
0.02 ISK
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1143
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 04:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Talos Alomar wrote:Patoman Radiant wrote:One thing to remember is that while armor does regenerate slower then sheilds, they do it 24/7. shields you have to be
1. not being shot at
2. wait long enough in cover for it to start
Though also armor reps require you to fit a mod, where as shield don't and can just pack extenders.
I do agree with the topic author on increased fitting for one type of complex armor mod, that should change. I've tried armor tanking. To have the sort of reps that can have a noticeable impact in a fight you have to pretty much fill your low slots, therefore sacrificing any buffer. I was hoping reactive plates would do more to mitigate that, but 45 hp is 1.5 rounds from a gek worth of buffer. that's even calculating the 10% penalty to armor and not factoring in damage mods. Calculate the buffer in extra rounds you can take. Armor tanking is will still be broken.
^This
While it is true, and should not be dismissed, that Armor Tank allows for reps even under fire the actual value of those reps must be considered as well. An Amarr Proto Logi with max skills (in Logi, Racial, and all Armor Tank skills) will gain ~20 HP/s when running 2x Complex Rep mods, and that's including all skill/suit buffs. Put another way they can tank slightly over 1/4th of a TAR bullet per second and are only able to do so as long as their HP buffer holds out (which more or less requires the fitting of armor plates). Point being that in most cases an armor tanked player will also have to retreat to cover in order to survive, and that's for a proto tanked dedicated armor suit with max skills. Yes there are ratified instances where the in battle rep may be enough to survive but that's closer to "Russian Roulette" than a tactically reliable feature, and we've still yet to touch on the effects of Alpha damage like that from Grenades (which do bonus damage to armor thus further pushing their likelihood to OHK).
The main value of Armor reps, over Shield recharge at present is that armor gains a slightly higher chance of survival as they run for cover because even the best on board reps do not allow an armor tanker to stand in the fight for even 1-2 seconds longer against the base value of proto weapons (i.e. excluding damage mods, skill buffs, head shots etc which push these totals even higher).
Cheers,
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1143
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 04:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Talos Alomar wrote:I should probably make it clear that even though we are having criticisms of mosules that aren't even out yet, it's because you have a great deal of people who are really interested in helping you test and balance this game.
CCP, please let us know if these are old numbers and that they've changed since then. If you could confirm what these numbers are we'll be able to help by telling you what we want and need out of armor mods.
Keeping mum on the numbers is just giving you more work later. Help us help you, CCP.
+1
Very much so.
~Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
Covert Intervention
1146
|
Posted - 2013.06.12 04:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:another problem is the Buffer vs. regen theory.
Yes armor can rep under fire but not enough to significantly increase survivability. Shield regen can retreat (much faster) and be recovered enough to continue fighting rapidly. They are a skirmisher versus a balls-to-the-wall wade in and smash style of combat. Unfortunately as we have all seen wade in and smash is suicidal but if you retreat you have to have logistic support to recover quickly.
Not only is shields more time-efficient it is much more resource-efficient. a rep gun takes a shooter off the field. Shields do not need reps, they need a little time.
If we want to make them equivalent then we need to do something. either add a bigger buffer or load in more efficient armor rep numbers. even a 25% boost to base armor reps would cover the disparity in recovery solidly. or an increase in base buffer could make the suits survivable. Either change can easily bring armor to competitive levels,and competitive levels are what armor NEEDS to keep up with shields even if they are slower the only way to compensate for the weaknesses of armor is to allow armor to take a rather large beating before it buckles and you die.
Agreed and based on sustaining game diversity I'd say it has to be Buffer > On board reps. Granted a buff that did a bit of both wouldn't be a bad thing either but the ratio needs to be weighted towards buffer.
Reasons for this,
- It maintains a distinction between the way each type of tank grants eHP,
- Without higher buffer slower moving armor tankers are still at as much risk of being OKH'ed as they are now (even if reps were buffed)
- Higher buffer promotes the tactical value of Logi/Equipment support in the form of Repair Tools and Repper Hives. Heightening on board armor reps to shield equivalent levels diminishes/eliminates the value of these Equipment mods thus diminishing the validity and frequency of support roles on the field.
In addition I think the internal scaling of both mod types (i.e. armor and shields) needs to be looked at with an eye to relative eHP (note, eHP not raw HP as buffer should be higher in that regard) gained per CPU/PG spent. While shields should draw more heavily on CPU and armor more heavily on PG the overall fittings cost per ~eHP gained should maintain parity between the two lines or we're likely to be facing an imbalance even if all other things are properly in alignment.
Cheers,
Cross |
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