DUST Search - Armor vs. Shield Balancing

Eurydice Itzhak wrote:

Cyybro Fennix wrote:

At the moment shield tanking is superior in DUST for several reasons. Shield extenders have no disadvantages, Shields repair themself etc.

So here are my suggestions:

Shield Tanking should get a downside.
Some DEVs already mentioned that shield extenders would increase the dropsuits scan profile but where is it? If this will be added then profile dampeners should become high slot modules to make it harder to compensate the downside.

Extenders and Plates should have the same stats increase per level.
At the moment it looks like this.
Shield: Militia 22HP, Standard 22HP, Advanced 33HP, Proto 66HP
Armor: M 40HP, S 65HP, A 87HP, P 115HP

It should be like this:
Shield: (18)-22-44-66
Armor: (36)-44-88-132

Passive Repairers should repair more.
Increase the repair rate to 3-6-12-18 but give them a warm-up time. If under fire it should repair at the current rates but the repair rate should increase with time.
0-2 sec.: 1-2-4-6
2-5 sec.: 2-4-8-12
5+ sec.: 3-6-12-18

There should be a high-slot module to decrease the warm-up time too.

If all these changes are applied they should be quite balanced.

EDIT: Updated the stats for plates and extenders
Edited the first line because some people misunderstood it. I mean disadvantages like reduced speed.

Just make it like vehicles where armor gets more eHP, better resists, and better repair.

While shield gets _______. (nothing)

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Cyybro Fennix Expert Intervention Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.06.09 11:13:00 - [1] - Quote At the moment shield tanking is superior in DUST for several reasons. Shield tanking has no disadvantages, Shields repair themself etc. So here are my suggestions: Shield Tanking should get a downside. Some DEVs already mentioned that shield extenders would increase the dropsuits scan profile but where is it? If this will be added then profile dampeners should become high slot modules to make it harder to compensate the downside. Extenders and Plates should have the same stats increase per level. At the moment it looks like this. Shield: Militia 22HP, Standard 22HP, Advanced 33HP, Proto 66HP Armor: M 22HP, S 65HP, A 87HP, P 115HP It should be like this: Shield: 11-22-44-88 Armor: 22-44-88-176 or Shield: 11-22-44-66 Armor: 22-44-88-132 Passive Repairers should repair more. Increase the repair rate to 3-6-12-18 but give them a warm-up time. If under fire it should repair at the current rates but the repair rate should increase with time. 0-2 sec.: 1-2-4-6 2-5 sec.: 2-4-8-12 5+ sec.: 3-6-12-18 There should be a high-slot module to decrease the warm-up time too. If all these changes are applied they should be quite balanced.
IamI3rian OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 152	Posted - 2013.06.09 11:21:00 - [2] - Quote Cyybro Fennix wrote: It should be like this: Shield: 11-22-44-88 Armor: 22-44-88-176 Yup. CalLogi's need more eHP. 88 x 1.1 (shield at 5) x 1.25 (cal logi bonus) = 121 per mod. x 5 = 605 shields from extenders. Seems legit. P.S. Math is correct right? Been up for hours workin on my respec (finally got around to it). I'm tired, and checked my (respec) numbers at least 15 times. Got THOSE right... which is what counts. = D
Novawolf McDustingham The514th The Official Mintchip Fanclub 198	Posted - 2013.06.09 11:31:00 - [3] - Quote It's simple, there should be two kinds of armor plate - damage reduction by % and Armor reinforcement +HP The debuff should effect sprint speed or stamina - not general movement speed. Shield extenders should raise Sig on all suits but the scout with rechargers and regulators causing a spike in sig when they kick in.
Another Heavy SOB TRUE TEA BAGGERS EoN. 127	Posted - 2013.06.09 11:47:00 - [4] - Quote Your numbers on militia armor plates are waaaay off. I'm not on the game right now but it's either 45 or 50. While I do agree that shield tanking is currently superior to armor tanking I think the planned variations of armor plates will just about balance the two. Although I do like your ideas for armor repair, the painfully slow repair is almost as punishing as the movement penalty. And as Novawolf suggested the debuff should not effect general movement, at least not as severely as it affects sprint.
Cyybro Fennix Expert Intervention Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.06.09 11:48:00 - [5] - Quote IamI3rian wrote: Cyybro Fennix wrote: It should be like this: Shield: 11-22-44-88 Armor: 22-44-88-176 Yup. CalLogi's need more eHP. 88 x 1.1 (shield at 5) x 1.25 (cal logi bonus) = 121 per mod. x 5 = 605 shields from extenders. Seems legit. P.S. Math is correct right? Been up for hours workin on my respec (finally got around to it). I'm tired, and checked my (respec) numbers at least 15 times. Got THOSE right... which is what counts. = D The stats are just an example for the schema. I personally also like the second more. N.B.:The problem with caldari logi at the moment is not the shield extenders, it-¦s the slot layout and the boni of the logi.
Quirky CatchPhrase The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 9	Posted - 2013.06.09 12:04:00 - [6] - Quote shields should increase signature radius like they do in EvE. Stacking shield extenders should increase this 'disadvantage'. in this manner you make shields a liability under certain circumstances, just like armor is a liability under certain circumstances. I have no idea about hit mechanics in DUST but in EvE, signature radius means its not only easier to get a lock on... its also easier to score hits on targets with higher signature radius.
Delta 749 Kestrel Reconnaissance 278	Posted - 2013.06.09 12:10:00 - [7] - Quote Quit bitching, shields also happen to be weak to the more popular weapons in use and the only super tanky pain in the ass shield users to kill are cal logis and that is only an issue since they get a light weapon slot when a side arm would suit the logistic suits role better
General Technique Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 6	Posted - 2013.06.09 12:11:00 - [8] - Quote Quirky CatchPhrase wrote: shields should increase signature radius like they do in EvE. Stacking shield extenders should increase this 'disadvantage'. Oh, I like the sound of this.
Another Heavy SOB TRUE TEA BAGGERS EoN. 127	Posted - 2013.06.09 12:15:00 - [9] - Quote Quirky CatchPhrase wrote: shields should increase signature radius like they do in EvE. Stacking shield extenders should increase this 'disadvantage'. in this manner you make shields a liability under certain circumstances, just like armor is a liability under certain circumstances. I have no idea about hit mechanics in DUST but in EvE, signature radius means its not only easier to get a lock on... its also easier to score hits on targets with higher signature radius. While I can agree with shield extenders increasing a suits scan profile increasing a dropsuits hit box from using shield extenders is absolutely unacceptable. I honestly don't mean to be rude but do you even play Dust? Balancing for space ship battles is vastly different from balancing a FPS environment.
J'Hiera Deadly Blue Dots RISE of LEGION 18	Posted - 2013.06.09 12:17:00 - [10] - Quote An increase in dropsuit profile per shield extender, yes. More so by advanced and prototype.

General Technique Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 6	Posted - 2013.06.09 12:24:00 - [11] - Quote Another Heavy SOB wrote: Your numbers on militia armor plates are waaaay off. I'm not on the game right now but it's either 45 or 50. It's 40
Spy Mouse Tech Guard General Tso's Alliance 50	Posted - 2013.06.09 12:34:00 - [12] - Quote Cyybro Fennix wrote: Shield tanking has no disadvantages Flux grenades.
Another Heavy SOB TRUE TEA BAGGERS EoN. 127	Posted - 2013.06.09 12:36:00 - [13] - Quote General Technique wrote: Another Heavy SOB wrote: Your numbers on militia armor plates are waaaay off. I'm not on the game right now but it's either 45 or 50. It's 40 My mistake. He was off by 18, I was off by 5..... How about responding to my posts that were actually directed to you in another thread....Or Maybe you could contribute to the debate at hand instead of simply pointing out my mistake to be petty.
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 381	Posted - 2013.06.09 12:48:00 - [14] - Quote Spy Mouse wrote: Cyybro Fennix wrote: Shield tanking has no disadvantages Flux grenades. And scrambler rifles.
Callidus Vanus BetaMax. CRONOS. 72	Posted - 2013.06.09 13:21:00 - [15] - Quote Ive tried both shield and armor tanking and this is just my view. Pro's of shield tanking; - decent ehp - suits are generally faster - dont require a mod to repair your primary tank Con's of shield tanking - low damage output unless you compromise your tank - can have low ehp if no armor mods are fit, even then its a slight increase and you lose your speed advantage - flux grenades remove your tank in one go, scram rifles effective against your tank. - depending on your suit it can take a while for your shields to recharge after being fully depleted Pro's of armor tanking - High damage output, mid slots can be staked with damage mods - decent ehp - no delay in the repair of your armor - option to stack mid slots with shield mods to further increase ehp Cons of armor tanking - Slow due to armor speed penalties (soon to be fixed with new plates if you don't mind slightly lower armor amount) - take more damage from explosives - in order to repair tank you need to fit at least one module Both tanks have their pro's and con's and neither really need to be looked at, its mostly the problem with certain suits.
Cyybro Fennix Expert Intervention Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.06.09 16:21:00 - [16] - Quote Callidus Vanus wrote: Ive tried both shield and armor tanking and this is just my view. Pro's of shield tanking; - decent ehp - suits are generally faster - dont require a mod to repair your primary tank Con's of shield tanking - low damage output unless you compromise your tank - can have low ehp if no armor mods are fit, even then its a slight increase and you lose your speed advantage - flux grenades remove your tank in one go, scram rifles effective against your tank. - depending on your suit it can take a while for your shields to recharge after being fully depleted Pro's of armor tanking - High damage output, mid slots can be staked with damage mods - decent ehp - no delay in the repair of your armor - option to stack mid slots with shield mods to further increase ehp Cons of armor tanking - Slow due to armor speed penalties (soon to be fixed with new plates if you don't mind slightly lower armor amount) - take more damage from explosives - in order to repair tank you need to fit at least one module Both tanks have their pro's and con's and neither really need to be looked at, its mostly the problem with certain suits. Let me correct you: -EHP has nothing to do here. Both have about the same EHP -Same for damage resistances -You forgot low repair rate and more Summa summarum: Armor: +More HP through plates +Damage Mods -Slows you down -Repairers are needed -Low repair rate -Cannot fit PG/CPU upgrades -Cannot fit Electronic modules -Cannot fit Biotic modules Shield: +Recharge without modules +and this quite fast +Faster +Can fit PG/CPU upgrades +Can fit Electronic Modules +Can fit Biotic modules +Shield Regulators are Low slot items -Less HP through Extenders -No damage Mods -Flux grenades Thus Armor has 2 advantages and 6 disadvantages while Shields have 7 advantages and 3 disadvantages.
Sebrone Jamleux Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 21	Posted - 2013.06.09 19:01:00 - [17] - Quote A Signature increase from shield extenders seems legit but there should be variants without this too like the new armor plates. I also like your idea for repairers pretty much. With the current repair rates I have to wait nearly half a game to repair my heavy suit (850 armor) so every boost for repairers is welcomed.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 535	Posted - 2013.06.09 19:18:00 - [18] - Quote There are currently no high powered modules that benefit armour. Meanwhile there are for shields. I'd like to see a passive armour hardener for high slots. A passive %age reduction to armour damage.
Cyybro Fennix Expert Intervention Caldari State 3	Posted - 2013.06.09 19:25:00 - [19] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: There are currently no high powered modules that benefit armour. Meanwhile there are for shields. I'd like to see a passive armour hardener for high slots. A passive %age reduction to armour damage. That would be nice to have too. Would you mind if I add it to the OP?
Chinduko KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 178	Posted - 2013.06.09 20:15:00 - [20] - Quote I would love to see a db increase as shielding increases. Shielding I'd imagine would take more energy to power which should give off a higher energy signature. Armor is just metal plating which at best would only require a suit to have increased power to move at the same rate with that hefty armor. However, since armor has a movement penalty, the suits don't seem to be using much extra energy to move since they have a movement penalty. There should be no movement penalty as armor doesn't repair itself without a repair module. The armor repair module is not a benefit to armor plates, it is a drawback that armor tanks because it is required to repair where the shielding requires no repair module. Shield and armor strengths could be possibly balanced as; Shield benefit; Highly fast recharging without the need of a repair module. Shield extender drawbacks; proportionately high db signature increase as shielding extension increases. Armor plates benefit; Increased armor with no db increase. Armor plating drawback; does not repair without armor repair module. (there should be no movement penalty) passive repair versus no passive repair should be sufficient enough as a drawback.

Asher Night The Dark Flock Omega Commission 91	Posted - 2013.06.09 20:27:00 - [21] - Quote Cyybro Fennix wrote: At the moment shield tanking is superior in DUST for several reasons. Shield extenders have no disadvantages, Shields repair themself etc. So here are my suggestions: Shield Tanking should get a downside. Some DEVs already mentioned that shield extenders would increase the dropsuits scan profile but where is it? If this will be added then profile dampeners should become high slot modules to make it harder to compensate the downside. Do you know how quickly the Scout dies already? Now you want to not only a) make them more noticeable on the radar when they desperately try to increase their HP, but b) require them to waste a high power slot to offset this horrible disadvantage. The prototype Gallente scout only gets one high power module anyway. Shields are easy enough to get rid of anyway. I do agree that the advanced shield should be more than 33 hp though. It seems ridiculous to waste so many SP just to increase their shield hp by 11more hp than militia shield extenders.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 538	Posted - 2013.06.09 20:36:00 - [22] - Quote Cyybro Fennix wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: There are currently no high powered modules that benefit armour. Meanwhile there are for shields. I'd like to see a passive armour hardener for high slots. A passive %age reduction to armour damage. That would be nice to have too. Would you mind if I add it to the OP? No need to ask.
Kitten Empress Ametat Security Amarr Empire 418	Posted - 2013.06.09 20:38:00 - [23] - Quote lol at people comparing movement speed penalty vs sig penalty.
Kitten Empress Ametat Security Amarr Empire 418	Posted - 2013.06.09 20:39:00 - [24] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=83983&find=unread Shields do in fact have the advantage, and whatever little advantage armor has, its far outweighed by the huge disadvantages. Its not even comparable.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 538	Posted - 2013.06.09 20:41:00 - [25] - Quote Asher Night wrote: Cyybro Fennix wrote: At the moment shield tanking is superior in DUST for several reasons. Shield extenders have no disadvantages, Shields repair themself etc. So here are my suggestions: Shield Tanking should get a downside. Some DEVs already mentioned that shield extenders would increase the dropsuits scan profile but where is it? If this will be added then profile dampeners should become high slot modules to make it harder to compensate the downside. Do you know how quickly the Scout dies already? Now you want to not only a) make them more noticeable on the radar when they desperately try to increase their HP, but b) require them to waste a high power slot to offset this horrible disadvantage. The prototype Gallente scout only gets one high power module anyway. Shields are easy enough to get rid of anyway. I do agree that the advanced shield should be more than 33 hp though. It seems ridiculous to waste so many SP just to increase their shield hp by 11more hp than militia shield extenders. That's not really a valid argument. Everybody makes the choice to benefit one area of their fitting whilst sacrificing another. HP vs Profile is just one more, and shouldn't be making exceptions for a scout suit.
Asher Night 187. 94	Posted - 2013.06.11 23:40:00 - [26] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: Asher Night wrote: Cyybro Fennix wrote: At the moment shield tanking is superior in DUST for several reasons. Shield extenders have no disadvantages, Shields repair themself etc. So here are my suggestions: Shield Tanking should get a downside. Some DEVs already mentioned that shield extenders would increase the dropsuits scan profile but where is it? If this will be added then profile dampeners should become high slot modules to make it harder to compensate the downside. Do you know how quickly the Scout dies already? Now you want to not only a) make them more noticeable on the radar when they desperately try to increase their HP, but b) require them to waste a high power slot to offset this horrible disadvantage. The prototype Gallente scout only gets one high power module anyway. Shields are easy enough to get rid of anyway. I do agree that the advanced shield should be more than 33 hp though. It seems ridiculous to waste so many SP just to increase their shield hp by 11more hp than militia shield extenders. That's not really a valid argument. Everybody makes the choice to benefit one area of their fitting whilst sacrificing another. HP vs Profile is just one more, and shouldn't be making exceptions for a scout suit. It is a valid argument. What you want to do is improve your own gaming experience by nerfing many others, while simultaneously eradicating an entire class. If scouts didn't get shields, I can just about guarantee many people who chose the scout would have just left the game. I have two enhanced shields on most of my loadouts and still die in what seems like two shots. I die so damn fast my screen greys out before my health even half way down, and I'm not even talking about one hit kill weapons. That's how fast the HP gets shredded away. I strongly urge you to play a scout character before wanting this change.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 793	Posted - 2013.06.16 01:41:00 - [27] - Quote Here's an idea: I'd suggest that the profile shift from shields be percentage-based on max-shield. The modifier would be multiplied by your suits signature. It makes rational sense as your shields are projecting an energy field beyond your suit. While it would seem that this would get overly large, we have a current problem in the game where people tend not to be detected till they're right in front of us anyway. To explain: Say your suit has 100 shields with all your passives and shield extenders (presumably, you're not using them I guess). Your max shield value in that suit is 100 then - this translates to 100%. Multiply that by your profile (effectively x 1, or no change). This means scout suits (who have very low shields) effectively keep low signatures. A suit with 200 shields has 200%, or a doubled profile. If you have some Cal logi shield block, you effectively have someone lit up like a christmas tree with a ton power going to shields... you might have a crazy modifier like 6x. The current heavies (Amarr only) have large signatures by default as well, at 4x or 5x with no modules, but heavies are supposed to have large signatures as well. You also could conceivably put a variable on all shield mods that acts as a flat +X to profile (raw value, not percentage) to represent the increased power output going on when strapping something like a regenerator or regulator to your suit. So, a person that elected to fill 5 high slots with shield regenerators would get whatever the +X to signature is x5, and whatever that value is multiplied by their max-shield based percentage. A Cal logi (to use a popular example) could try fitting all their low slots with profile dampeners to compensate, but those would still be subject to a stacking penalty of course. It's a question of how "bad" or serious you think visibility is. To some degree, suit EHP already seems to figure directly into speed and signature, so it's possible they might want to adjust the base suit values if they gave the shields this kind of multiplicative effect (i.e. - if a Heavy has 400 (4x) and a Scout has 70 (.7) base modifier... they might not need to have the current signature disparity). The only problem with this is impacting other suits signature won't necessarily make them much more detectable. The larger issue with our current profile-scan system is that all suits have a very short range (to make scanners useful perhaps). This shield "fix" doesn't impact the existing gimpy scan radius of all suits (part of that seems to be that the meters in game don't seem to be actual meters...) because the scan radius is a property of your own suit, not your opponents'.
Eurydice Itzhak Militaires Sans Jeux 74	Posted - 2013.06.16 01:58:00 - [28] - Quote Cyybro Fennix wrote: At the moment shield tanking is superior in DUST for several reasons. Shield extenders have no disadvantages, Shields repair themself etc. So here are my suggestions: Shield Tanking should get a downside. Some DEVs already mentioned that shield extenders would increase the dropsuits scan profile but where is it? If this will be added then profile dampeners should become high slot modules to make it harder to compensate the downside. Extenders and Plates should have the same stats increase per level. At the moment it looks like this. Shield: Militia 22HP, Standard 22HP, Advanced 33HP, Proto 66HP Armor: M 40HP, S 65HP, A 87HP, P 115HP It should be like this: Shield: (18)-22-44-66 Armor: (36)-44-88-132 Passive Repairers should repair more. Increase the repair rate to 3-6-12-18 but give them a warm-up time. If under fire it should repair at the current rates but the repair rate should increase with time. 0-2 sec.: 1-2-4-6 2-5 sec.: 2-4-8-12 5+ sec.: 3-6-12-18 There should be a high-slot module to decrease the warm-up time too. If all these changes are applied they should be quite balanced. EDIT: Updated the stats for plates and extenders Edited the first line because some people misunderstood it. I mean disadvantages like reduced speed. Just make it like vehicles where armor gets more eHP, better resists, and better repair. While shield gets _______. (nothing)
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 265	Posted - 2013.06.16 02:09:00 - [29] - Quote IamI3rian wrote: Cyybro Fennix wrote: It should be like this: Shield: 11-22-44-88 Armor: 22-44-88-176 Yup. CalLogi's need more eHP. 88 x 1.1 (shield at 5) x 1.25 (cal logi bonus) = 121 per mod. x 5 = 605 shields from extenders. Seems legit. P.S. Math is correct right? Been up for hours workin on my respec (finally got around to it). I'm tired, and checked my (respec) numbers at least 15 times. Got THOSE right... which is what counts. = D You should read this post, I made a build of every single suit using all high slots for shields and 2 low on basic armor plates. Caldari Logistics comes out at 934 EHP, if you don't wanna read it Caldari Logistics get 679 shield HP total with Shield upgrade and shield extenders lvl 5.
BL4CKST4R WarRavens League of Infamy 265	Posted - 2013.06.16 02:12:00 - [30] - Quote Eurydice Itzhak wrote: Cyybro Fennix wrote: At the moment shield tanking is superior in DUST for several reasons. Shield extenders have no disadvantages, Shields repair themself etc. So here are my suggestions: Shield Tanking should get a downside. Some DEVs already mentioned that shield extenders would increase the dropsuits scan profile but where is it? If this will be added then profile dampeners should become high slot modules to make it harder to compensate the downside. Extenders and Plates should have the same stats increase per level. At the moment it looks like this. Shield: Militia 22HP, Standard 22HP, Advanced 33HP, Proto 66HP Armor: M 40HP, S 65HP, A 87HP, P 115HP It should be like this: Shield: (18)-22-44-66 Armor: (36)-44-88-132 Passive Repairers should repair more. Increase the repair rate to 3-6-12-18 but give them a warm-up time. If under fire it should repair at the current rates but the repair rate should increase with time. 0-2 sec.: 1-2-4-6 2-5 sec.: 2-4-8-12 5+ sec.: 3-6-12-18 There should be a high-slot module to decrease the warm-up time too. If all these changes are applied they should be quite balanced. EDIT: Updated the stats for plates and extenders Edited the first line because some people misunderstood it. I mean disadvantages like reduced speed. Just make it like vehicles where armor gets more eHP, better resists, and better repair. While shield gets _______. (nothing) I do agree that his armor repair is a little... high. It should stay as is or an increase that is not over 25% of what they are now. Armor has terrible resists almost every gun that isn't an assault rifle or a EM weapon does 150% damage on shields, the reason why Armor vehicles don't get destroyed is because other HAVs don't equip missile launchers , even then they are OP but just saying.



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