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Raynedog Lightstar
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Posted - 2013.06.08 18:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
Some thoughts and feedback on snipers. Thanks for reading.
Red Line: It would seem that the red line needs a timer on the order of the three minutes or so for all players to vacate the area. I understand the need to have an area for players to spawn and organize, and not be spawn camped, however it would also seem that a variety of players utilize the red zone as a hiding, camping, farming, afking zone. With unlimited amount of time being able to be spent in the red zone it promotes this behavior.
MCC snipers: Think we can all agree this needs to go away and IGÇÖve seen a variety of posts on the issue so enough said I think
Snipers Role: The snipers role seems to have been the topic of some debate as of late. Some argue that snipers should be much closer to the action and in the mix while others stand firm that snipers will always be at long distance camped out in picking off the occasional combatant. It would be interesting to hear what the Devs think of the sniper role and state of game play.
As it stands the SR is designed to be fired multiple times from a stationary location and at a distance. IGÇÖve experimented with both game play styles and it would seem the design forces the long distance camping far greater than constant moving to cover your teams location.
Before going into the why let me be clear about a few things of the top. The lack of quick scope ability is good and good for the game. The rate of fire, cost, ammo, reload time, and primary stats associated with the SR feels about right to me. That being said, the idea that a sniper will be very effective constantly moving to cover a team is hindered by a few factors.
The scope and zoom is the first factor. I find that the closer I am to the targets the more difficult it becomes to track and fire on time. The more distance I have it becomes exponentially easier because of the zoom. If snipers are truly meant to be on the move and somewhat closer to the action, variable zooms would be needed in order to fit the situation.
The second issue would be time involved to set up. I have level 5 in both primary skills for sniping so I do a good deal of damage in addition the sway is not too bad. However when moving around with my squad trying to get to a position to cover them, once there I have to kneel, wait for sway, get on target and fire, then wait for the bounce to subside then shoot again.
The combat pace is fast in this game which brings excitement to the battles but does not sit well for a weapon that can takes 3-4 seconds to be fired. In addition I find that when IGÇÖm moving with the squad and keeping my range IGÇÖm also right in range for players with scrambler rifles to light me up once seen. That weapon has good distance and can be fired fairly quickly. This is not a bad thing but it does seem to be more suited for distance cover than the SR is.
In addition many of the vantage points in cities and around capture points have been blocked off with rails and the like to provide cover from snipers. ThatGÇÖs fine as well, but it does narrow the options for someone who wants to use a SR to help cover a teamGÇÖs position.
The removal of the GÇ£tracer roundGÇ¥ seems to have been a much need change since after one shot it was very easy to find a sniper forcing them to find spots even further away from the battle. IGÇÖve noticed how ever when you are fairly close to a sniper shot you can see the white tracer round. This is not something that needs to be removed but, again it doesnGÇÖt really promote being any closer to your squad.
Finally the lack of any kind of stealth or cammo mechanic really seals the deal for what role snipers will play in battle.
All in all the SR has many draw backs and balances in place that will force most players to stay far outside the battle with wide vantage point, taking what shots they can. I donGÇÖt regard this as a bad thing unless the design for snipers was something else.
IGÇÖve run with some snipers who have been able to move around cities with success in support of a team. They seem to do well counter sniping, and getting a kill or two. IGÇÖve noted however they would have been more effective from relatively the same positions with a TAC AR or scrambler. Again this is not to say there is anything wrong with those weapons but they do seem to do better in that situation.
So based on the game play it would seem that snipers are not designed to follow the squad, rather to take up positions with wide range of view, good vantage, and out of range of TACGÇÖs and Scramblers. After all the SRGÇÖs big advantage is range so why would you not press that advantage?
The issue then becomes, when you load into a match and you no less than 5-6 snipers camped out in the hills while the rest try to frantically fight off the onslaught. This however is not an effect of the snipers power or cost, itGÇÖs a function of SP gaps. The biggest complaint I get from friends IGÇÖve brought into the game is that it takes too long to become moderately proficient in terms of survivability and DPS output. So they all do the same thing, they start sniping from the red zone until they get enough SP to fill the roles they wanted to play in the first place.
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Raynedog Lightstar
O.Q.R.D.
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Posted - 2013.06.08 18:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
In closing, it would be nice to know what the Devs think of the status of snipers and what they have planned. To those who say snipers donGÇÖt engage in combat closer to the teamGÇÖs location I would simply say when it becomes advantageous to do so, then more people will. Thanks for reading.
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Raynedog Lightstar
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Posted - 2013.06.08 19:30:00 -
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cy6 wrote:IMO, if you are really far away from the battle and picking off random combatants, you are not helping the team defend an objective or go on an offensive. When I snipe, i am always nearby an objective so for 3 reasons:
1) If the enemy team is advancing, it is up the to sniper to injure/kill enemies rushing the team objective from afar and buy time for the frontline troops time to respawn/retaliate
2) If the enemy team is defending an objective, it is up to the sniper to injure/kill spawning soldiers so the team can capture it more easily
3) If the team has completely left an objective unguarded and an enemy spy infiltrates a team objective, it is up to the sniper to have a sidearm readily available to kill the hacker in order for the team to keep the objective.
In a sense, a sniper plays the same role as a heavy, but with different methods.
If a sniper is doing none of the above, if the sniper is picking off random enemy troops he/she is not a team player. Also, one cannot use the excuse that "a sniper is a team player if he gets kills to force the enemy to respawn" because the only the kills that really matter are the ones that will affect the team's overall intentions. IE) killing a random in an open field is not as effective as killing (or simply injuring) an enemy running with 3 others that are rushing an objective. Only the latter will give your team a fighting chance.
Your line of thinking is very valid and I've often engaged in conversations with others with a similar line of thinking. After all what's the point of objective based play if you are not part of the group aiding in the capture or defend of the the objective?
Where I am coming from in my line of thinking is the aspect of optional team play vs the path of least resistance. It would seem that the design and set up of the SR class and it's weapons promote the long range picking off folks rather than moving with the group.
The issue comes in when you look at time to fire and set up, visibility, and rewarding player experience. I simply contend that the game design for the class, good or bad based on your particular point of view, promotes snipers being some place with open views and killing who that can vs moving along at distance with a team. I've listed some of the reasons I think this in my OP.
While I think the issue is entirely relative to personal game play style and disposition I would venture to say most will find they are more effective at range in open spaces rather than constantly trying to move from spot to spot.
An example of the game play i'm talking about it is the idea that when a sniper sets up he/she communicates to the team enemy movements and what targets are open while also trying to defend at least one capture point or area of enemy traffic. Depending on the flow of the match there may be times when there isn't much action or when it becomes obvious that it would be better to pick a new vantage point. In addition I view the job as counter sniper, when the team calls out they are being pinned down or taking fire from another sniper.
I would also contend that as a sniper your best advantage is the spot that is just beyond the range of the other long range weapons.
I don't mean to imply that it can not be done, I 'm simply saying that the current design and set up of the class favors long distance, high vantage points, and less frequent re-positioning.
The facts on if that's good or bad is really down to personal preference. That's why if the dev team would perhaps shed light on how they envisioned the role operating , it would be helpful in providing feedback in relation to how the role is currently functioning.
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Raynedog Lightstar
O.Q.R.D.
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Posted - 2013.06.08 20:35:00 -
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EXASTRA INVICTAS wrote:CCP has done a good job making it so the snipers far and away from the battlefield don't have the ability to contribute as much to the fight as a sniper who is closer.
That said, I've found the role to be most helpful in these ways:
1) Intel. Nobody but a dropship can gather intelligence on enemy movement like a sniper. But the sniper is at least safer, and the sniper can also gather the intel faster. 2) Squad Support. In this game, being sniper isn't about getting a high kill/death ratio and only taking really opportune shots. You're not helping your squad that way. When your squad engages the enemy, you need to be taking shots on the targets, whether they're lined up headshots or not. That extra damage that the enemy can't prepare for or block can EASILY tip the scales in favor of your squadmates. 3) Tactical denial. There are usually several safe positions that give a sniper an eagle eye on at least one objective terminal. If the team knows that the Sniper has eyes on this target and can snipe off any enemy trying to hack it, they can save their remote explosives and manpower at guarding other locations. This is a huge factor while defending, as the single sniper becomes a tremendous force multiplier. Remember he can still support his squad from afar after defending the objective. 4) Anti-Sniper. Nobody can kill a sniper quite like, well, another sniper. Most snipers are used to being able to sit in one area and camp away. But if you can drive them off and keep mobile, you'll save your squadmates a lot of headache when they try to cross from objective to objective.
That aside, I feel there is no issue with red line sniping or MCC sniping. These types typically stay in the same place, and return to the same place, making them easy kills for anyone with a sniper rifle and 10 seconds to spare.
I am in alignment with your thoughts here outside of red line and MCC. MCC I feel like is somewhat of an exploit as in unintended game play mechanic.
My issue with red line play across the board is that at some point the game should promote players into coming onto the playable combat zone. This is really more of an issue when you see that half way though a match the randoms have taken up positions in the red zone. The idea being that if forced to leave at some point they might engage in meaningful combat on some level. I would be in favor of the red line timer being tied to the number of objectives you have captured, the more objectives you own the less time you can spend in the red zone or something to that effect.
Over all I would also like to agree with reducing the settle time a small bit to promote more mobility and better support like cy6 said. Of course it would have to be a small amount since the balance over all needs to remain.
Currently it seems that the settle down time and sway is a bit over done to prevent snipers from becoming too prevalent and proficient at closer range. However now that the game has been out for a while, and based on the balance of other weapons I think it couldn't hurt to be reduced a small amount. |
Raynedog Lightstar
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Posted - 2013.06.08 20:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tharak Meuridiar wrote:Raynedog Lightstar wrote:Snipers Role: The snipers role seems to have been the topic of some debate as of late. Some argue that snipers should be much closer to the action and in the mix while others stand firm that snipers will always be at long distance camped out in picking off the occasional combatant. It would be interesting to hear what the Devs think of the sniper role and state of game play. I am definitely of the opinion snipers should be taking a perch somewhere with a good view of the battle, but where they hopefully won't attract much notice. Duking it out at a range is the role of assault rifles/scramblers/laser rifles. The sniper rifle is about hitting the enemy VERY hard from an unexpected angle, and used properly it can win battles for your allies. The fact that many snipers focus too much on the not attracting notice part, and too little on helping their team part, is just a product of this game placing too much emphasis on K/D. Personally I think they should up the victory points for taking objectives, give bonus victory points based on the AMOUNT of the gap between your kills and deaths (So that someone who got 15/5 would get a much better reward than 5/0) and just up the ISK/SP rewards for helping your team win in general.
In addition to your fine points, I think additional rewards being granted for assistance kills would help the sniper class a great deal since in reality many times the sniper supports a team by delivering an Alpha strike that makes the close range team have an easy target as others have pointed out.
I personally don't worry about KD as much as I worry about effective contribution to the team game play. As a sniper I know that it's not optimal for me to really be running up on points to capture or mixing it up with a scrambler rifle. I feel I'm far more effective in the combat over watch role, the anti sniper, or area of access guardian role.
I would still contend however there is a place for some sort of covert, stealth or cloak mechanic that would change the style of sniper play. In addition I find it somewhat frustrating that there isn't an effective target call out system, or target painting mechanic. Being able to only mark one target at a time seem a little limiting.
Once a team member spots a sniper or a group of combatants that he/she would like the sniper to help with, they have no real recourse to mark a target or area unless they are squad lead |
Raynedog Lightstar
O.Q.R.D.
3
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Posted - 2013.06.08 22:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
I think a fix is needed for the squad targetting command. In particular, the target should stay highlighted until it is killed. Also, squadmates should be getting squad bonus for killing a squad target. After all, the lead DID commission the target. [/quote]
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Raynedog Lightstar
O.Q.R.D.
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Posted - 2013.06.10 02:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lots of good points and discussion. It's good to hear everyone's thoughts on the matter. Seems like in terms of sniper class feed back we seem to all be dancing around the same points
- More WP for assistance kills - Small reduction to sway at level 5 - MCC sniping while annoying isn't really that big of a factor - Red zone sniping, again, annoying but not really a huge issue - Additional improvements to the squad leader command system - ease of use, longer attack target notice
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Raynedog Lightstar
O.Q.R.D.
4
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Posted - 2013.06.10 02:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
Brutus Va'Khan wrote:IMO, there only two kinds of GOOD, PRODUCTIVE snipers: tactical and overwatch.
In skirmish especially, a good overwatch sniper takes a dropship up to a high point with the best view available. And a mic is necessary for this. I played with this guy in my squad who would constantly be telling all of us stuff like, "3 guys coming from the north towards A" "2 camping out at B" etc. etc.
The next type is the tactical sniper. This kind moves with the squad, scouting out the area ahead while also aiding in firefights. With the massive sway, this is difficult. The fact that snipers have a very difficult time hitting anything closer than a few meters, they are effectively farsighted and can not fight in the thick of it. I suspect that when cloaking arrives, snipers (and really all speedy, sneaky scout suits) will be much more effective in combat considering a scout suit is so squishy.
That's a good point I forgot to add to my list cloaking game mechanic. Game play modules like cloaking and portable shield generators always excite me and worry me at the same time. One the one hand they seem like the stock and trade of good stealth based players. On the other hand they are popular devices to at first be OP then nerfed into gag gift items due to public outcry. i'll be very interested to see how they implement and balance such items. |
Raynedog Lightstar
O.Q.R.D.
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Posted - 2013.06.10 21:44:00 -
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Jathniel wrote:I'll give you some feedback. I played sniper role from the Mordu's Private Trials build all the way to the very end of the Chromosome build. I went Tactical Assault in Uprising.
There's a misconception that a sniper HAS to run with his squad, and engage in mid-range combat. This is due to the hatred that snipers receive when they operate at ultra long-range, or at some position inaccessible to the enemy (like behind the red line, or up on a tower). People get frustrated, and start trying to insult the sniper. Snipers are not viewed as "honorable", because a sniper doesn't allow his opponent an "equal opportunity exchange of fire". So if he is a proficient sniper, and actually starts killing a lot of people, and those people can't reach him; they cry, *****, moan, throw tantrums, throw insults, and come to the forums to complain about how a sniper killed them... It's "the redzone", it's the damage, it's ALWAYS absolutely fkin EVERYTHING else except their OWN failure.
To make people feel better (or because they fall for insults on their tenacity as players), some snipers take it upon themselves to fight at mid-range, like their non-sniper rivals want them to. Before Uprising, this simply caused snipers to get chewed up by Assault Rifles and Laser Rifles. Today, snipers that do the "honorable" thing, simply get chewed up by Scrambler Rifles and Tactical Assault Rifles. .
I cant tell you feel very passionately about the subject which I find to be a good trait!
You definitely reinforced much of the general thought process from snipers. Thank you for bringing up the render distance thing, I totally forget to add that in. |
Raynedog Lightstar
O.Q.R.D.
9
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Posted - 2013.06.12 00:48:00 -
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I find it interesting that in the new game play vid around the 1:20 mark they show a sniper moving into combat position, sitting down to take aim, experiencing what amounts to 0 sway. I suppose the vid is sped up in places for run time but I'm curious if that's where it's all going with the next build. in terms of sway.
Also they show the sniper moving in close to the battle and mixing it up with the squad. Most likely because it make a more interesting video that way I suppose. It would appear however that they have shown a bit of the design for how they want snipers to operate in some fashion.
I tend to disregard game play trailers in terms of predicting new systems or features changes. They do what they think will look best in the vid for with the internal testing which may or may not be balanced for use. Also because it also shows the flaylock pistol being useful ;) |
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Raynedog Lightstar
O.Q.R.D.
9
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Posted - 2013.06.13 02:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
TheEnd762 wrote:I'd like to see more ladders, allowing access to more sniping positions. And less of those stupid, head-level barricades around rooftops. While I do understand the need for creating LOS blocks in areas so players can actually maneuver, they do seem overly prevalent on some roof tops.
Adding more ladders would not only give snipers and others perches but it would also make them more open to attack so seems like a fair trade. Short of that we would be looking at ascension cables or something of that nature.
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