DUST Search - For CCP Wolfman - Lets discuss the TAC Changes

Berserker007 wrote:

ok, time to simplify the problem here.

TAR:

+ high damage
+ out ranges everything aside from SR
+ higher rof then full auto guns (as dont believe burst is doing a 900+ it says, but isnt used b/c to weak)
+ = hipfire to full/burst guns
+ good at all range

- smaller magsize
- semi auto (not a real neg, but whatever)

With the changes done to the TAR it now looked like this:

+ high damage
+ out ranges everything aside from SR

- even smaller magsize (maybe to small, could of probably went 18/24 for adv/proto)
- semi auto (not a real neg, but whatever)

Which is how it should be (more or less). If you read the description of the TAR it says its a "medium-long" range weapon. Well, with the old stats it was as good/better in cqc then the other AR's, so it wasn't pure player ability to do it, but game mechanics (that was bad). By changing the TAR, it put it in its proper role of being more of a DMR set role, having more damage per shot, more range, but much smaller mag. That said, hipfire reduction was definitely needed, as the TAR isn't meant to be cqc effective (but it was), yet i do believe ADS recoil should be slightly lowered to aid in its designed role. If you want to look at it via real guns; consider the normal AR an m4a1, and the TAR a XM110 (if dont get the comparison, then google it)

Also to the OP, you can't lower the damage, as then all you have is a longer range breach AR.


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Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 435	Posted - 2013.06.06 22:03:00 - [1] - Quote Berserker007 wrote: ok, time to simplify the problem here. TAR: + high damage + out ranges everything aside from SR + higher rof then full auto guns (as dont believe burst is doing a 900+ it says, but isnt used b/c to weak) + = hipfire to full/burst guns + good at all range - smaller magsize - semi auto (not a real neg, but whatever) With the changes done to the TAR it now looked like this: + high damage + out ranges everything aside from SR - even smaller magsize (maybe to small, could of probably went 18/24 for adv/proto) - semi auto (not a real neg, but whatever) Which is how it should be (more or less). If you read the description of the TAR it says its a "medium-long" range weapon. Well, with the old stats it was as good/better in cqc then the other AR's, so it wasn't pure player ability to do it, but game mechanics (that was bad). By changing the TAR, it put it in its proper role of being more of a DMR set role, having more damage per shot, more range, but much smaller mag. That said, hipfire reduction was definitely needed, as the TAR isn't meant to be cqc effective (but it was), yet i do believe ADS recoil should be slightly lowered to aid in its designed role. If you want to look at it via real guns; consider the normal AR an m4a1, and the TAR a XM110 (if dont get the comparison, then google it) Also to the OP, you can't lower the damage, as then all you have is a longer range breach AR. This^ smacks hands together to dust them off OP, you also can't make a case for the TAR 'still being good at cqc', because it shoots too slow. You would have to literally kiss a target to hit them with hip fire, even if you hit them with hip fire, you aren't shooting nearly fast enough or hitting them often enough to down them before they down you. A person with a Duvolle regular will drop a guy using a Duvy TAR at cqc... as it should be. The tactical was always supposed to have first strike capability second only to the sniper rifle, and work as a support/flank support weapon to the standard ARs, which it can finally do now, and Burst ARs can now apply just that much more pressure than the Tac. All of the ARs finally synergize properly, and are correctly balanced (with the exception of the Breach). The tactical should have more damage per shot. Not increased RoF, but reduced damaged. Why? Because that's the Burst AR's role. lol Try using an Allotek... those fkers are nasty.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 442	Posted - 2013.06.07 11:37:00 - [2] - Quote Tankin Tarkus wrote: id like to know why ANYONE would take a Breach AR over the current Tac the Tac has just under 50% more damage twice the range and the same rate of fire (the breach is 400RPM just like the Tac) This is why the Breach AR is the last AR that needs to be properly balanced. Pretty much ALL weapons with the "Breach" moniker are not CQC dominant, as their name implies they should be. Breach Shotguns suck compared to standards. Breach Scrambler Pistols are too slow compared to standards. Breach Forge Guns stop you from moving... you won't breach anything if you can't move. Breach SMGs are just suckier standard ARs. Breach ARs are no different than the rest of the Breach family... they fail at their intended goal. Why? Because their RoF sucks donkey balls. I'm a firm believer that high RoF weapons do, and always should dominate CQC (the Shotgun and Nova Knives being the only exceptions to this rule). In fact, the entire "Breach" concept in Dust proves this. No one uses anything Breach in it's niche with total success. Higher RoF weapons always come out on top in CQC. Don't get me wrong. This is NOT a bad thing. RoF should rule CQC, always. That said, I really think Dust's Breach principle should be reviewed... Should Breach variants keep damage, and simply get superior RoF? Should a Breach HMG with 5000 RPM RoF be introduced? Should the Breach SMG be bumped up to 1200 RPM? Should the Breach Scrambler be bumped up 700 RPM? Should the Breach AR receive the old TAR's 789.5 RPM? Before you say No, bare in mind, these weapons have significantly smaller magazine size. So a higher RoF means they kill faster, BUT their persistence is also reduced. Before you say Yes, you have to think about the potential fallout to the other variants within that class. (e.g. ALL SMGs are CQC weapons. So if you just give the Breach SMG a huge RPM jump, the other ones are automatically obsolete.) Breach is a touchy subject.... but the Breach weapons, especially the Breach AR need some review.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 442	Posted - 2013.06.07 11:39:00 - [3] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: RedRebelCork wrote: Thanks Wolfman. Appreciate your communicating what's going on to us all, it really does make a difference. Just my $0.02 on the Duvolle TAR. I'm not sure if it's intentional or not, but I think DTAR has been relegated to PC battles only. The reason being I could never justify spending 4x the ISK for a proto variant that has only a very slight differentiation from advanced variant. Might be worth re-examining and perhaps upping the magazine size slightly (20+) to give people a more visible value proposition when compared to GLU-5. I disagree on your Duvolle TAR comment. Increasing the clip size was always a bad thing for the weapon scaling - No other weapon, to my knowledge, received a higher clip size than the previous tier. It widens the gulf between proto and advanced gear too much. Also, what's to stop us from increasing clip size in the Duvolle regular to 72? To increase the reward over using a Gek? 18 is a good clip size for both TARs. If you conserve your shots and aim, you will put down your targets just fine.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 450	Posted - 2013.06.09 15:40:00 - [4] - Quote Well, I'm very happy that CCP used the nerf hammer responsibly in the case of the TAR. None of us have to sing that "AR is OP" song anymore. The AR is now, for the most part, in it's rightful place as a balanced utility weapon. 75% complete (again, the Breach AR needs to be thought over very carefully). I know some people don't like the clip size, but I personally recommended an 18-shot magazine to keep the Tac AR in line with the principle of 'the longer your range, the less your persistence'. Compare to the Full Auto and the Burst. 60 rounds in both. Since the Burst fires 3 rounds at a time, it has 20 volleys. Therefore, 60 > 20 > 18. The Burst, being the closer range, higher RoF weapon, should have greater persistence (larger magazine) than the Tactical. I initially wanted to reduce the clip size to 10-15 rounds, but realized that if the Tactical's damage wasn't increased, it won't be able to kill heavily armored/shielded targets. I was NOT comfortable with the damage per shot bonus needed to keep the Tactical potent with a 10-15 round clip... it's base damage would have had to cross into sniper rifle damage territory... which is exactly where a weapon like this SHOULD NOT be (the damage on headshots would make it again superior to every other weapon). In the end, it's good that CCP kept the damage the same (I originally proposed taking the 10% bonus away), and simply reduced clip-size and RoF, and increased hip spread. The Tactical now hits that delicate line between AR and Sniper Rifle, but still stays well within AR territory without violating the territory of its variants. I can't see the outcome being much better for ARs without the Breach getting some love. We know the AR is serving as a test bed for the stats of the other upcoming utility weapons. I would assume the Scrambler for example is 50% complete, and that we are waiting for Breach and Burst variants to come out in time. I know we want to see variants of the niche weapons. (I for one would love to see more sniper variations.) But i think that's exactly what we currently have. If I had to guess, the Charge Sniper Rifle is probably a test bed for an Amarr Pulse Laser Sniper (get it? charge the pulse, and release the beam?). So I'm sure they are working on niche racial variants as well, but the utility weapons are most important, because they are the ones that the niche weapons will be balanced against. So those must be done first.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 451	Posted - 2013.06.09 15:45:00 - [5] - Quote The Black Art wrote: Rate of fire needs to be increased to 500 or so. The 400 cap is too low, and causes the gun to stutter if you press R1 too fast. Also, if the reasoning behind the RoF nerf was to prohibit "modded" controllers, why leave the scrambler rifle as it is? Apparently, the heat build-up is based on time fired, not shots fired, so "modded" controllers can abuse this easily. Yeah, the 400 cap could be considered to low. I wanted a 450 cap, but they probably didn't want it firing as fast as a scrambler pistol on purpose. The Scrambler rifle on the other hand isn't based solely on time fired, not on shots fired, but on the AMOUNT of shots fired WITHIN a certain amount of time. Spam auto fire on a controller, you're not getting off more than 11-14 rounds before you overheat. Take your time to shoot controlled time shots, and you will naturally have a reduced dps, but it won't be so high that you "murderlize" everything. Important to note that due to it's sight, the SCR is better suited for closer range engagements than the TAR. So it needs to have rapid fire available. The Scrambler is fine. I disagree with a number of others that it needs an effective range boost.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 451	Posted - 2013.06.10 01:23:00 - [6] - Quote Zeravla Hsoj wrote: Jathniel wrote: Spam auto fire on a controller, you're not getting off more than 11-14 rounds before you overheat. . And have you seen anyone with a modded controller and a SCR? From what I've heard as recently as a couple days ago the overheat function is glitched allowing almost 1 1/2 clips to be unloaded without overheating. Yes. I own a modded controller, and an input device that modifies mouse inputs. I have done testing using both. The overheat function is not glitched, and is working correctly for BOTH scrambler rifle variants. 11-14 rounds or so for the SCR (scrambler rifle). - You must fire in controlled bursts. 1 1/2 clips or so for the SCAR (scrambler assault rifle/assault scrambler rifle). - You can go fully offensive with 1 clip, then pull back and cool off. SCR = Semi Auto SCAR = Auto The Scrambler is fine.
Jathniel G I A N T EoN. 451	Posted - 2013.06.10 01:28:00 - [7] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: The problem with the RoF cap is that while 400rpm is really hard to achieve consistently for the strain alone (i say impossible even), it is perfectly possible to dish out 10rps for one or two seconds. This leads to the perceived slowliness of the current tac although the RoF sounds reasonable on paper. My take for a solution is a system akin to the overheat mechanic of the SCR wich allows for four or five shots at max before the weapon starts to limit the firerate in order to break modded controllers. That way people can fire as fast as they can for realisticly short bursts, allowing for the weapon to behave like it's namesake without giving modded controllers as much of a function. Although I would like the RoF to be bumped up, for sheer preference. I actually prefer it where it's at. The 400rpm gives the tactical a more reasonable TTK compared with its sister ARs, and it settles that "it kills me too fast" complaint.