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Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
334
   |
Posted - 2013.06.06 08:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
A while back I wrote a big long mess I called the General Tactics Overview.
I had recently hoped to update this with new elements such as the changes to LAVs and Derpships as well as the long awaited Scan Profile data.
Unfortunately it would seem that topic is locked indefinitely... Yeah.
So, here's my update in its solo form which is probably for the best because that other thing was just an utter monstrosity. ( I was actually approached by Laci, the editor of ISK The Guide, about using parts of my work for their publication. I gave them the rights to do whatever they want with it just to leave my name in there so I could take the blame for any mistakes. And while some things have changed, most of the info there remains pretty solid, even as far down as detailed module info. )
Anyway... here it is: The Unified Theory of Scan Profile
Chankk Saotome wrote:[Seriously, where's my Motion Tracker and Power Lifter already CCP? Game over man... Game over!]
Okay, time to set the record straight and get this all collected and put down.
Ignore everything I've said thus far about anything related to Profiles and Scanning. HERP DERP!
Alright, so let's break it down:
You guys got nothing to worry about. I'm a professional.
Terminology:
Scan Profile = How easily you are spotted and detected by enemy radar.
Scan Precision = How easily you can spot an enemy on your radar.
Scan Radius = The range limit for you to pick up enemy movement/actions without visibly spotting them.
Relativity = The quality or state of being relative. A state of dependence in which the existence or significance of one entity is solely dependant on that of the other.
Also, either of two theories developed by Albert Einstein which requires that the laws of physics shall be the same as seen by any two different observers in uniform relative motion. The first part, also called GÇ£Special RelativityGÇ¥, is based on the concept that physical laws have the same form throughout the universe and that the velocity of light in a vacuum is a universal constant. The second, also called GÇ£General RelativityGÇ¥, developes a theory of gravitation based on the unified acceptance that the local effects of a gravitational field and of the acceleration of an intertial system are identical.
Trust me, I know what I'm doing.
GÇ£Just the facts, maam.GÇ¥
Scan Profile static base stats:
65 for Heavy frames
50 for Medium Frames
45 for Light Frames.
Scan Precision static base stats:
60 for Heavy frames
55 for Medium/Assault frames
50 for Logistics frames
45 for Light frames
Scan Radius static base stats:
2.0m for Heavy Frames, Medium/Assault frames
5.0m for Logistics frames, Light frames
We're gonna need those numbers for later.................... Yes. Maths.
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Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
334
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 08:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
How does it work?
Okay, so it's like this...
There once was a man from Nantucket
The lower your Scan Profile is, the harder you are to spot on enemy radar through the enemy's Awareness Sense. That seems pretty self explanatory, but you'd be surprised how hard it is to really grasp that concept.
The LOWER your Scan Precision is, the more acute your personal Awareness Sense, and thus how easily you can pick up enemies on your personal tacnet radar for you and your teammates.
(Awareness Sense is a term I developed back in the MAG Beta to describe the situational awareness of the radar in that universe. Basically, it's brought down to your Local Scan Radius in DUST. I wrote the book on this stuff in MAG as well even though I'm playing a completely different character here... kind of. I was a stealth combat engineer and saboteur. I'm support logi here but still fascinated by the stealth aspect.)
Think of Scan Precision more of a threshold number rather than a leveled skill or ability. The lower your threshold, the less tolerance you have for reddots trying to be sneaky, and thus the more sensitive you are to them.
These two elements work in direct correlation to one another. Someone with a Scan Profile lower than your Scan Precision will not show up on your radar until they are visibly spotted or they do something to raise their Scan Profile above your Scan Precision threshold, such as putting a shotgun round through the back of your helmet.
As this affects basic statistics:
Heavy frames: Yeah... you're just never gonna spot a thing unless it passes in front of your weapon.
Medium/Assault Frames: You'll spot the heavies walking up behind you, but everyone else will be invisible to you from a standing start.
Logistics: Hey, combat viability. We'll get to see Heavies, Assaults, other Logis. Basically anyone who isn't a scout or hasn't lowered their Scan Profile will be available on our radar and thus our team's tacnet. Thumbs up.
Light Frames: Scouts. Your specialization title says it all. The only teammember likely to find another scout on the field from base stats.
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Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
334
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 08:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Scan Precision:
- You put your left leg in. You pull your left leg out. You put your left leg in, and you shake it all about.
Simple, only 3 things will affect your Scan Precision, one of which is your suit itself so we'll skip that. Otherwise it comes down to only Scan Precision modules and the Precision Enhancement skill.
The actual math is where this bit gets tricky. These modules and skill will lower your Precision threshold by a specific percentage based on your suit's base Scan Precision. You're looking at the following function to express that relationship:
Ps GÇô (Ps*Es) GÇô (Ps*Em)
Where: Ps = Base Scan Precision, Es = Precision Enhancement skill, Em = Precision Enhancer module.
CCP calculates all of these elements independently so, even though the % subtractions could simply stack I like to keep things independent for the sake of clarity and... precision.
(See what I did there?)
Thus, at lvl 3 Precision Enhancement using an Advanced Precision Enhancer for example:
Ps GÇô (Ps*0.06) GÇô (Ps*0.15)
This for the suits means a Scan Precision change of:
Heavy Frame: 60 > 47.4
Medium/Assault Frame: 55 > 43.45
Logistics Frame: 50 > 39.5
Light Frame: 45 > 35.55
As you can see, the higher the base the more significant the effect, but it does all start to trail off. The maximum you can reach with one module would be: Ps GÇô (Ps*0.10) GÇô (Ps*0.20); thus:
Heavy Frame: 42 (18pt difference)
Medium/Assault Frame: 38.5 (16.5pt difference)
Logistics Frame: 35 (15pt difference)
Light Frame: 31.5 (13.5pt difference)
Keep those numbers in mind for later. |
Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
334
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 08:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
Scan Radius:
- You do the Hokey Pokey and you turn yourself around.
Basically, the limits of your Awareness Sense, to use that term again. For most people, that's all of 2m, and if you haven't spotted them visually by that point, you're probably in trouble. For Logis and Scouts it's a decent 5m which is still only about enough time to realize where the bullets are coming from as you die.
This is only affected by either Range Amplification skill or Range Amplifier modules.
To get these numbers we have a calculation of: Rs + (Rs*As) + (Rs*Am)
Where Rs = Scan Radius, As = Amplification skill efficacy, Am = Amplification module efficacy
So, the maximum we find with one module is:
Heavy/Medium/Assault: 3.9m
Logistics/Light: 9.75m
The maximum with skill only is:
Heavy/Medium/Assault: 3m
Logistics/Light: 7.5m
Realistically that module slot is better used for other things. I'm not knocking any proper recon scouts actually doing their job up close and personal like that, but it's a factor of such limited use. Some may have noticed and wondered why it seemed not quite as easy to sneak up to melee a logi at an objective than a scout. Well it doesn't seem that way. It just generally IS that way.
[NOTE: Look, I get what CCP is doing here, but seriously these numbers seem all kinds of borked to me. Apparently Assaults and Heavies are simply blind and deaf in the future. Also, I can clearly hear people walking quietly down a hall 10-15m away, yet my Logi with all his advanced technology is lucky to hear someone stomping just 5? Too much ducttape holding the headset together on the Min? This is just my opinion but the skill as it stands has painfully limited use except to let someone rush in and likely suicide in an area to get a map flareup of reddots to know their position. It's almost easier just to sight them all visually.] |
Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
334
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 08:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Scan Profile:
- That's what it's all about.
Oh... what doesn't affect this? But let's be serious. Beside your frame type, this will mainly be affected by Profile Dampener modules and Profile Dampening skill for the better. There are rumors that Shield Extender modules may at some point affect your Scan Profile as they do in EvE, but until that day we'll just stick with what we have currently because it's already confusing enough.
The Profile Dampening skill and Profile Dampener modules work to lower your maximum Scan Profile on a direct percentage basis. A calculation looking like:
Sp GÇô (Sp*Ds) GÇô (Sp*Dm)
Where: Sp = Scan Profile, Ds = Dampening Skill % efficacy, and Dm = Dampener Module % efficacy.
Consequently, at lvl 2 Profile Dampening with a Basic Profile Dampener module you get:
Sp GÇô (Sp*0.04) GÇô (Sp*0.15)
For suits a Scan Profile change of:
Heavy: 60 > 52.65
Medium: 50 > 40.5
Light: 45 > 36.45
A pretty significant drop and only with a basic module.
Maxed out with one module again you're looking at the following:
Heavy: 42.25 (22.75pt difference)
Medium: 32.5 (17.5pt difference)
Light: 29.25 (15.75pt difference)
Now, you're looking at those numbers and thinking... My God... They're invisible!!! Friggin ninjas the whole lot of 'em. Well, not quite. Only if they're not doing anything. And when I say GÇ£anythingGÇ¥ I mean anything. Though I need some third party sourced research to confirm, my own experience has led to the following presumptions with certain elements supported by teammates and associates.
Firing your weapon will severely increase your Scan Profile. To what degree is impossible to say because they're hidden numerics but it's rather significant (as if the sound of your shenanigans wasn't an obvious clue to your presence already).
Sprinting seems to affect your Scan Profile somewhat. Though this COULD be enemies being sighted, I've taken note of reddots behind walls who magically appear moving rather quickly (and chevrons that seem to confirm sprint speeds) who then trail off when they stop to catch their breath. I will neither confirm nor deny this until I have more data but the evidence I do have makes strong implications.
Using equipment does not seem to affect your Scan Profile. I've had people complain about invincible heavies because they never see or realize there is a pair of logis behind them giving ungodly amounts of armor rep. Personally, though I like being unseen, I feel this is something that will be added SOONtm, in which activated equipment such as Repair Tools, Active Scanners, even active vehicle modules, will increase your Scan Profile significantly.
Shield Modules, specifically extenders, do not affect your Profile... yet. Maybe some day, SOONtm.
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Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
334
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 08:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
The simple rundown is that your active profile is a statistic in constant flux throughout movement and combat. Your visibility on enemy tacnet is not a static fact but affected by the behavior you take on the battlefield
Your enemies and their Scan Precision are absolute constants, though you are unlikely to know their precise statitistcs until they mystically hunt down you down. An enemy's Scan Precision and Scan Radius never changes, but your Profile can shift dramatically through various actions you take. relative. (HAH! And you thought I was never gonna get to it).
[NOTE: As I stated, this isn't precise, and there are no numeric values displayed on weapons or equipment to express this flux but we believe very strongly that it exists and it would be great to get some teams of friendly blues and reds to waste away a Faction Warfare battle specifically with the intent of testing all of this. Without the old Corp Battle arena format, FW is pretty much the only way to synch up two whole teams of people who have no interest in killing one another but actually breaking down fundamental game elements and see if they do actually work properly and if so then to what degree.
GÇ£Boo hoo, you're not using Faction Warfare as intended and just cocking about in it.GÇ¥ GÇô some spacer
Take it up with CCP. There's no real way for us to test anything now that servers are unified and we can't go to empty Asian servers or run cheap Corp battle matches anymore just to goof off and do some proper field testing and data collection. It's one thing to see it on paper, but we all know how purely paper designs go. That's right, they lead to Cal Logis with 9 module slots, 5 of which are 73hp shield extenders and enough regulators to regain shields between bullet impacts.
Someone get us proper match making and old corp battle or new arena mode that spacers can gamble on or something, and simply let us do this in a proper controlled environment, we'll stop dicking about in controlled Faction Warfare battles testing new flight ceilings and Flaylock travel speeds. Until then, HTFU spacer scrub.]
...Man, I got way off track there for a moment. I apologize. |
Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
334
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 08:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
Active Scanners:
I actually get to see and use these things GÇ£working as intendedGÇ¥, and talk about them finally
And I have to start off by stating, I absolutely love these things. No, seriously, go see my rant on RedBleach's updated Logi Code about just how amazing these things are.
Or don't, because that's gonna make a lot of this repetitive though I'll try to stick to the numbers.
Active Scanners are an activated equipment tool that you GÇ£fireGÇ¥ to extend an GÇ£Active Scan fieldGÇ¥ along an anterior angle of your tacnet radar out to a certain distance. Scanners work totally independent of your own personal Scan Profile, Scan Precision, and Scan Radius. As such their scan abilities are based on their own equipment statistics, not yours or your suits:
The Basic Active Scanner (45dB Scan Precision) will spot any unmodified Basic suits, or heavy/assault suits using basic or militia level dampening modules or skills.
The Advanced Active Scanner (36dB Scan Precision) will spot nearly everyone but the most stealthy of ninja scouts generally.
The Prototype Active Scanner (28dB Scan Precision) will spot everyone. Period. SENTANCE! Well... as long as they're not stacking modules which do have a stacking penalty.
Unless it's the Duvolle Focused (15dB Scan Precision. WHAT!?). That thing can scan a bee sneezing at 100m but at the cost of having to keep it out for the whole duration of your scan.
The best part of this tool which is a bit of data that no one thought to tell everyone is that even if a reddot is below the threshold of your personal Scan Precision, or even your Scanner's Scan Precision, the tool will TELL you it has received a margin of error if it detects an enemy within your scan arc but their profile is simply too low to actually light them up on your tacnet radar.
Yes, the thing pops up messages on everybody's screen. GÇ£You have been scannedGÇ¥ scared the bejebus out of me before I knew what it meant. For the user, it will tell you that your scan has completed and whether or not there was a margin of error.
Incredibly useful and powerful in an organized squad, this little bit of extra data could lead you to calling out a likely stalker position on comms even though you can't actually see them on radar.
[NOTE: There actually IS more, and it is very likely that certain fittings, modules, equipment, even just carrying certain weapons themselves much less firing them, will at some point affect different elements, particularly Scan Profile. These will all be things to watch as the game progresses but it's got a good solid base currently as long as all of these elements work properly.
To that end, I've heard some complaints that they do not. Specifically Scan Precision and Scan Radius. I think that the people complaining don't realize how short a distance of 2-5m really is and they expect this to somehow light up everything anywhere on your radar. That's not how it works, that's not how it's going to work. I agree the range is painfully short, but it is what it is and as far as I can calculate out from my own experience all the Scan/Profile mechanics are, in fact, for the first time ever, working as intended. Good job CCP.] |
Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
334
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 08:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Reserved.... Yes, I still have more that needs to be stated... probably. |
Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
339
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 10:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Vyzion Eyri wrote:Lovely information. If I could, perhaps permission to use some to enhance the little I already have here? I'll make sure to credit you, if I do. Also, a question. Is scan radius the maximum radius you can detect someone with a profile within your scan precision? Or is it the absolute maximum? Like, if I was standing 15m away from an enemy who's doing nothing, but then suddenly starts firing, would I detect him/her on the minimap?
Go for it Vyzion. Glad to let you use anything useful you find among my madness. I'd actually advise sticking my name on it to protect yourself so people know who is actually responsible for any bad info.
As for Maximum Scan Radius, this is the kind of data that needs real proper testing as I suggested. There is a LOT of secret information and hidden numerics that we'll never get a hold of without managing things in a controlled environment. Unlike the Skill Planner this requires a LOT more than just numbers.
From what I can figure out, your Scan Radius is a fixed value.
What you might be discussing would be a possible hidden value of a Profile Radius which could be linked to Scan Profile itself, i.e. whether certain actions increase your own area by which you can be detected somehow. It's an interesting concept but again something that would require some serious testing, not just in-game mucking about and HOPING to figure it out. |
Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
356
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 22:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Thanks for all the feedback and info guys. I'll be updating this. I apologize for any bad info.
Still not certain on base dropsuit scan radii. I was using the data dump from CCP themselves on various dropsuits and I have not checked properly to see if this statistic has been changed in game itself.
Good to hear that movement does not affect your Scan Profile, though it would be an interesting feature.
Still need testing confirmation on weapons fire but an experience the other night makes me wonder if I'm dead wrong on that as well. Equipment doesn't light you up, and while I could definitely hear the guy shooting on the other side of that wall, I couldn't tell precisely where he was until I went around to spot him visually.
Also, need to clarify data on Active Scanners. Though you might not be "scanned succesfully" the fact that a sniper hunter can denote a margin of error within a certain area can let them move about and eventually triangulate your position using a low-angle scanner with higher range like the flux even though the scanner won't necessarily see you light up on the map itself.
Great feedback and I'll get this updated as soon as possible. |
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Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
361
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 09:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
Edited, fixed, all kinds of nonsense... I think it still has errors actually but I basically removed big huge chunks after reading a lot of hidden info.
Hopefully we can see those elements put in that will actively affect your Scan Profile some time because without direct sighting, ninja scouts are deadlier than ever right now. |
Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
363
|
Posted - 2013.06.08 21:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
Alright, thanks for the info hydraSlav's... So, if you magically see reddots on your radar it's because someone else actually visibly targeted them... weirdness... I hope this gets to working soon... I'm not gonna remove this but will update it with everything properly when it works as intended which, according to various conversations and other information, what I have posted, even concerning elements of behavior affecting Scan Profile, is what it SHOULD be... it just simply isn't yet.... YET.
SOON*tm. |
Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
364
|
Posted - 2013.06.10 10:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kaze Eyrou wrote:Wait.
Let me clear something up. OP, just to let you know I believe meta 1 Active Scanner has a precision of 46 not 45.
This means that the level 1 Active Scanner will not scan Light Frames at all. Which makes later sense in the story posted below on page 1.
I'm assuming he might have had a Scout suit but even if he had a Light Frame suit, the meta 1 Active Scanner will not pick up even a Light Frame suit.
CONFIRMED in game
CCP's data dump is really a mess.... A LOT of bad data honestly. |
Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
389
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 01:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Chankk Saotome, I wish I could find someone like you to run the DUST UniversityGÇÖs R&D department.
I appreciate the sentiment but happy where I am. I support Dust Uni though for sure and am happy if anything I say or offer aids you and your members in any way.
Anyway, I've had some new recent experiences that make me question precision information.
We've been discussing this and testing it in corp on occasion and despite the descriptions of it it does not seem to be a radial effect on your dropsuit.
Despite the short range it seems to work on a forward arc view (what would be line of sight if we were playing wireframe maps). I've had heavies and assaults sneak up on me from out of nowhere. They've been inside my 10m range so more testing will be required. Hard to find reddots willing to participate but sneaking up on various snipers works decently as most suffer from really bad scope tunnel-vision. |
Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
465
|
Posted - 2013.07.23 07:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
HUGE delay before responding to any of this. CCP keeps tweaking and adjusting these "little" thing without our knowledge but I will state the following until I'm corrected, again:
Modules WORK but their benifit is minimal despite numbers because the actual real-world benefit is not something people generally notice, such as scan profile, scan precision, etc.
These are CQC skills. They work across Field of Vision, not circular radar.
Anyone thinking these will benefit their sniper is missing the point.
These are skills for ninja scouts and CQC assaults who want to pick up enemies ahead of them whom they are sneaking up on and to likewise not be seen through walls by enemies checking their 6. |
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