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Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana
Orion Empire
309
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Posted - 2013.06.06 02:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Another QQ thread from you is exactly the thing i needed now... |
Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana
Orion Empire
310
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 03:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mike Poole wrote:Lance 2ballzStrong wrote:
lol i can tell you don't use SR. If you did, you'll realize you have no argument.
I don't really need an argument given I have physical evidence and this thing called "math". The two of those together tend to speak for themselves. You people can try and counter with "I can only fire it X times with my finger, there's no way you got 20!". Yea, you used your finger and I'm testing using the same or similar methods as people that have been exploiting semi-auto weapons. The rest of the math is all there plain as day going straight off the numbers provided by CCP. You may not have the range of the TAC but if you line someone up in the Scrambler Rifle's sweet spot you can exploit it's high damage and ROF to drop them in less than a second. If CCP wanted people to be firing this weapon dropping people that fast then why would they drop the damage on the actual assault versions? It's the same situation as the TAC where ignorance of mods and macros precluded using realistic values for a semi-auto rate of fire. Where does your "math" explain how firing faster, thus reducing the time of cooldown between each shot can lead to more shots beeing fired before overheat?
This requires a flaw in the heat buildup algorhythm to be possible and you provide no data to justify this assumption. |
Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana
Orion Empire
310
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 03:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
Gunner Nightingale wrote:Mike Poole wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:Where does your "math" explain how firing faster, thus reducing the time of cooldown between each shot can lead to more shots beeing fired before overheat?
This requires a flaw in the heat buildup algorhythm to be possible and you provide no data to justify this assumption. Then guess what, there must be a flaw in the heat buildup algorithm. I've been getting 19-20 shots out before an overheat, someone else has already replied saying they managed 17 just hitting the button as fast as possible without caring for accuracy.
If people using the weapon normally claim to get at most 10-11 then there's something wrong with how the weapon is registering heat buildup. I never said getting in that many shots made sense, I just said it's possible. This here is why you fail at FPS games. Srsly just Biomass your toon and delete the client. FPS is clearly not the game for you. If what he says is true then we have a legitimite issue at hand and using clocked input signals is the most reliable method we have from our side to confirm or disprove this. Lets not drown this issue in hostility now that we actually a testable hypothesis.
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Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana
Orion Empire
310
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 04:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
Delenne Arran wrote:Did another quick test while keeping a close eye on the charge gauge and seem to have found our answer. Taking shots at a more "normal" rate of fire (13 shots before overheat), the charge gauge builds up a small amount higher on each shot, which means it'll build up heat more quickly. The next question would be to see how large, if any, the difference in damage is between 17 "as fast as possible" shots and 17 "normal rate of fire, would normally overheat at ~13" shots, but it seems the gun may well be Working As Inteded. This assumes of course that you can have varying amounds of "charging" in every shot. I might be wrong about this but i had the impression that there's just two possible states i.e. "fully charged" and "not charged".
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Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana
Orion Empire
310
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 04:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
Delenne Arran wrote:Malkai Inos wrote:This assumes of course that you can have varying amounds of "charging" in every shot. I might be wrong about this but i had the impression that there's just two possible states i.e. "fully charged" and "not charged".
I'm pretty there is a bit of variable charge damage? The heat buildup is definitely different between "no charge," "half-charged" and "fully charged," so presumably the damage scales up the longer you charge as well. Then we have to get some real world DPS comparisons to assess wether there's room for abuse or not.
Off the top of my head though, if this turns out positive, i'd just make the algo consider every shot below some threshold as "non charged" with a the base amount of dmg as well as heat buildup. That way the greatest possible abuse would lead to miniscule RoF increase with both dmg and number of shots remaining equal within this threshold.
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Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana
Orion Empire
310
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 04:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Delenne Arran wrote:Gunner Nightingale wrote:
Nope
You can put in variable levels of charge, happens to me all the time by mistake because i my first button press sticks sometimes when i use my mouse. It unequivocally raises the charge meter.
Also yes half charges work extremely well in a triple tap type of shot. Half charge follwed by 2 rapid shots usualy drops most people.
Glad someone else could confirm the damage difference. I was pretty sure about it, but not 100%. I wasn't really clear when I mentioned it in that second post, but the problem wouldn't be a difference in damage-- 20 ever-so-slightly charged shots spread across an overheat SHOULD do more damage than 20 charged-slightly-less ones fired rapidly. The problem would be if the latter did the SAME amount of damage. If we assume that heat buildup and damage are directly related to each other then those slightly less charged shots should also deal less dmg.
The question remains if the damage is reduced by the same relative amount as the number of possible shots is increased (we are talking about at least 70% here). If it is then we have a weapon that behaves just differently when used with clocked signals, wich is still not good. If it's not...
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Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana
Orion Empire
317
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Posted - 2013.06.06 14:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
I wanted to add another datapoint to the discussion in case it helps
Using this application and a ds3 connected to the pc with L1 mapped to the left mouse button i managed to register 221strokes over 30 on average with an average frequency of about 7.3rps (rough calculation). This is nowhere near of 10rps but it should be noted that my frequency lowers significantly (starting between 9 and 10 lowering to ~6-7) after just a few seconds of continuous action (about 8-10 seconds usually, getting uncomfortable after 5).
Given the fact that the SCR can not be fired for even more than 2 seconds continuously before overheating in any case this means that getting near 10rps manually long enough for the weapon to use its whole heat threshold is within the realm of possibility for the average human (assuming i'm average).
Thusly, if there really is an issue with the heat buildup algorhythm it might affect more than just users of modded input devices, explaining the varying statements concerning the number of shots before overheat. |
Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana
Orion Empire
317
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 14:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mike Poole wrote:Knightshade Belladonna wrote:Hrmm, so it does sound like a mod controller or mouse could be used for this.. but then again it could for everything. at least unlike the TAC AR this thing overheats, so if they are using a mod , they will overheat quite often leaving themselves vulnerable.. or this is what I believe would happen, could be wrong Modded controllers only benefit semi-automatic weapons with high rates of fire, namely the TARs (pre patch) and Scrambler Rifles. The overheating isn't as big a problem as people keep assuming, it's not as if anyone doing this would be as stupid to overheat over and over purposefully. A modded controller can still allow for a devastating burst of fire without the need to land land a single charged shot. Well, the overheat is supposed to limit the number of shots that can be fired in short order, that way balancing the weapon. The fact that shooting faster allows for almost twice the amount of bullets, instead of just overheating equally faster bothers me for it's counterintuitiveness alone. It also weakens the limiting effect that the heat mechanic is supposed to have on weapon balance.
I'd much rather have the RoF unchanged but the heat buildup fixed. Pure logic suggests that shooting faster should actually lead to fewer shots because there's less cooling time between shots. This could even be enough to stop making modded controllers worthwhile, making everyone happy.
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Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana
Orion Empire
320
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 16:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Rei Shepard wrote:Quote:Well, the overheat is supposed to limit the number of shots that can be fired in short order, that way balancing the weapon. The fact that shooting faster allows for almost twice the amount of bullets, instead of just overheating equally faster bothers me for it's counterintuitiveness alone. It also weakens the limiting effect that the heat mechanic is supposed to have on weapon balance. Ive tested the Imperial Scrambler rifle + Amarr Assault Suit with the Eagle Eye converter (witch has a Turbo Button function) Stock with just finger clicking the gun overheats at 19 clicks Eagle Ete Converter the gun overheats at 22 clicks Correct me if i am wrong but 22 is not the double of 19. The gun fires at its max Rof witch is lower then the what the TAC was.... If i could have put out 38 rounds with this then yes the gun would be OP, but its 3 rounds at best with the Amarr suit bonus. Without it its gonna be a whole lot less, lemme try that after i get back home, gotta go now. I compared to the 11-13 shots reported earlier, sorry for mixing that up. But then we're still looking at a difference of 15% and the point that the algorhythm's behavior is couterintuitive and supports abuse stays.
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