DUST Search - Gaining SP

Asmodeus Reinhart wrote:

Oso Peresoso wrote:

Blah blah blah

Philosophical nonsense

Blah blah blah

It's a shooter. This is not eve. Any comparisons involving Eve's mind numbing skill vs time mechanics are irrelevant. If it took you 7 years to unlock prestige 1 in COD no one would play it. Time invested compared to the ability to use what I want is excruciating. While were on the subject - why have such a gear related spread anyway? Narrow the gap between militia and proto. Why should anyone be indestructible in a game because the played it for "X" months and not because they are actually good? It's BS logic at best and is completely balanced out of every other FPS.

unfortunately those who created it lack the fundamental understanding shooters are not played in this manner. This isn't revolutionary. It's broken. I'm sitting on the cap and its Sunday. Why even turn it on for the next couple days? Nothing to work for. Maybe a couple hundred SP per match? As if the regular few thousand wasn't insulting enough?

For that matter I don't really gain much for playing it at all. I'm served almost as well just letting my character sit and collect unemployment SP while everyone else is hard at work. I know how the sticks and buttons work. I know what I could do if I had the stuff unlocked I want. Why play at all?

Just wait a few months until I can hop on and buy it all?

This is lazy garbage at best. Combine that with the cap and its like encouraging people not to play. Can't even grind it out. I'm not building an empire. I just want a few guns and a suit or two. Jesus H...

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Karnage Civire Hydra II-Omega 0	Posted - 2013.06.05 21:04:00 - [1] - Quote Can someone please explain the SP system to me? I understand you gain SP every few seconds and all that, but is there a way to gain SP faster? I only get (MAX) 6k SP per game, and certain skills cost millions of SP, so how can we logically be able to gain that much SP in a time frame that won't make us sick of the game?
Asmodeus Reinhart Ninth Rim 23	Posted - 2013.06.05 21:20:00 - [2] - Quote Karnage Civire wrote: so how can we logically be able to gain that much SP in a time frame that won't make us sick of the game? Therein lies the IMO inherent problem in DUST. It's set up so that it takes months to do anything. And also so that you cannot unlock everything to just be able to do whatever you want. It's set up so you can be one thing. And maybe half crappy at another. That's it. There are active and passive SP boosters you can buy; IE real $. That will accelerate the process. But they literally only give you that extra "bonus SP" from the end of the match you can see when you complete it. (Active) Or give you more passive SP just like you already get from doing nothing. Neither are a game changer, and probably my least favorite part of Dust in it's whole. The penalties of making bad SP choices and not being able to build a character say really far into a class, and then a vehicle, and or a different class sucks. I don't want to be the same thing the entire time I play the game. And I don't want to mess around for months and months just to be able to be half decent at that one thing either. Some of us have a full time job, house, cars, bills, and significant others - friends... and things to do that don't involve months of grinding to find out they nerfed something you were working to unlock. To finally get there and hate it anyway. If the SP was twice as fast. It would be still be half of the speed it needs to be coming in to make the game genuinely progressive in nature.
Karnage Civire Hydra II-Omega 0	Posted - 2013.06.05 21:25:00 - [3] - Quote I understand why the creators have made the SP system as they have, and i respect them for it as it prevents people being able to pick up the game and have the best skills in, say, assault. But i dislike the fact it takes months for anything to really happen. I had an account that went inactive for 4 months (because i forgot about the game) and when i came back on i had a little over 3million SP, which i found to be relatively little once i had gone down the skill tree that i originally intended to go through. I just dont think i'll realistically be able to play this game to its full potential due to lack of time.
Asmodeus Reinhart Ninth Rim 23	Posted - 2013.06.05 21:30:00 - [4] - Quote I think they vastly over estimated the attention span of the shooter crowd. Either the whole goal was to pull in more Eve people as a sort of tie in "for the homies". But not the actual shooter players of the world. I don't care about world economies, or star ships. Building an empire or anything of the sort. I want to shoot people in their face over and over until they throw their controller across the room. I want to giggle like an idiot as I crush kids holding that pivotal objective that decides the match. And then I want to turn off my ps3. And not care until I turn it back on to do it again.
TheAmazing FlyingPig Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 723	Posted - 2013.06.05 22:03:00 - [5] - Quote Asmodeus Reinhart wrote: But its going to take a life time to get to the point where I can do it at the level I would like to. Short on time? Short on skill? Purchase Aurum today!
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 98	Posted - 2013.06.05 23:16:00 - [6] - Quote Gaining SP is simple. Earn more WP to gain SP. The higher the WP the more SP. Killing will gain you 50wp, Assists 25wp, Hacking Objectives 100wp, Hacking a Turret, CRU or Supply Depot 50wp with varying amounts for assisting in hacking an objective or installation. Triage wp can be earned by repairing armor with either a rep tool or nanohive at 25wp per cycle. Ammo supplied by your nanohives to other players will net you 10wp per cycle. If you are in a tank and the driver kills someone you gain 35wp for a vehicle kill assist. If you place Drop Uplinks on the field and someone spawns at one you receive 25wp. The best way to earn more WP is to be in a squad where the squad leader sets a defend order on a squad mate. This gives all players on the squad who are close to that squad mate an extra 20%wp for every WP awarded which can really boost your wp and SP gains. Active boosters multiply the sp earned by 1.5 or 50% more SP gained so they can really speed up skill progression. The 200,000sp per week cap is there for everyone and we all want higher level skills to improve our game and get better stuff. If you have the time, once you cap the SP of your character you can still earn up to 1500 SP per match with an active booster or 1000 wp without so if you want more SP you have a chance to earn it. I've been playing this game for over a years time. The first million SP is the hardest, after which you will have gained some SP into an appropriate area that helps earn more WP/SP. The BEST way to do this is to specialize and get good at one thing before moving on to the next. Find what you want to do in the future and work towards it step by step. Don't become discouraged by slow SP gains, it is the same for everyone.
Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 98	Posted - 2013.06.05 23:22:00 - [7] - Quote Me and some of my friends have been experimenting playing matches without any of our proto gear using base level equipment and have confirmed that tactics are king, not gear. Developing good tactics will help you win more often and level the playing field against high SP characters. Many people complain that a proto suited merc squad is running through pub matches destroying people but in reality it probably doesn't matter what gear that merc is using be it militia or proto, he has developed tactics that work and uses them. Skill does affect the outcome of the battles, not just who has the most SP.
billy kirkland Bojo's School of the Trades 0	Posted - 2013.06.06 02:57:00 - [8] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Me and some of my friends have been experimenting playing matches without any of our proto gear using base level equipment and have confirmed that tactics are king, not gear. Developing good tactics will help you win more often and level the playing field against high SP characters. Many people complain that a proto suited merc squad is running through pub matches destroying people but in reality it probably doesn't matter what gear that merc is using be it militia or proto, he has developed tactics that work and uses them. Skill does affect the outcome of the battles, not just who has the most SP. I agree with this I've just started playing (maybe not just started 2 or3 weeks ) anyway I've just been using my starter stuff and leveling my skill as to get better stuff and save ISK but dying is a way of the game but good tactics are a really a good way to live and shoot people I've been able to keep my K/D around 1.0 by not just saying I can't kill people because I have only starter gear but that if I can "out smart them" I should be able to kill them.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 208	Posted - 2013.06.06 07:05:00 - [9] - Quote Boosters increase total SP. Here's the breakdown: Passive: 1,000 SP an hour, 24,000 a day, 168,000 a week (252,000 with a Booster) Active: Cap is 190,400 a Week (285,600 with a Booster) SP Earned in a Match = (Seconds you are in a Match X 5) + War Points (fairly certain that is the breakdown) Boosters are actually quite helpful but are not the be all and end all.
Glori Jinn Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 2	Posted - 2013.06.07 13:15:00 - [10] - Quote Karnage Civire wrote: I had an account that went inactive for 4 months (because i forgot about the game) and when i came back on i had a little over 3million SP Urgh, how?! I played closed beta, stopped just after it went open beta, then started again on 5/14 and my main had 650k SP total. I must have stopped at the wrong time I guess. I dream of 3mil SP!... G

Draco Cerberus Purgatorium of the Damned League of Infamy 106	Posted - 2013.06.07 19:07:00 - [11] - Quote Glori Jinn wrote: Karnage Civire wrote: I had an account that went inactive for 4 months (because i forgot about the game) and when i came back on i had a little over 3million SP Urgh, how?! I played closed beta, stopped just after it went open beta, then started again on 5/14 and my main had 650k SP total. I must have stopped at the wrong time I guess. I dream of 3mil SP!... G There was a reset at the start of Open Beta, if you didn't play in Open Beta you didn't start the passive gain again.
George Moros Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.06.07 20:01:00 - [12] - Quote Karnage Civire wrote: Can someone please explain the SP system to me? I understand you gain SP every few seconds and all that, but is there a way to gain SP faster? I only get (MAX) 6k SP per game, and certain skills cost millions of SP, so how can we logically be able to gain that much SP in a time frame that won't make us sick of the game? Short answer: it will take (literally) years for your character to be really perfect at any one specific role. Long answer: Although I'm a complete noob at DUST and almost-complete noob at online shooters, I'm a 5-year EVE veteran. As you may know, EVE uses similar skill system. Main difference is that in EVE there is no "active" SP gain, only passive. Although, amount of SP/day you gain in EVE is roughly double that of DUST (with proper attributes/implants), you are also looking at years of training just to specialize in, say, Gallente subcapital ships. And yes, I know it looks kinda overwhelming when you consider all those skills you would like to have trained (at level 5, of course ;) ) and the amount of SP you have to gather to get there. However, consider also this: - all those millions of SP are no guarantee of winning a battle (as every EVE vet will tell you, it's 25% SP, 25% fit, and 50% player skill). - if your 50M SP opponent (and there will be such opponents in the future) has 20 million SP invested in light weapons but is currently using a heavy weapon, that means 20M SP less to worry about. - training skills from level 4 to 5 takes insane amounts of SP (and time) and usually has very little difference in gameplay performance, Unless level 5 is a prerequisite for something else, it really doesn't make much sense to invest all those SP for lvl 5, unless you've come to the point that you've trained everything else you need to 4. DUST copies EVE in the sense that this game will probably never be "instant gratification" type of game. It takes time to get to certain things in EVE, and DUST looks very similar in that regard. DUST also copies EVE in the regard of teamplay importance. No matter how good you are, you'll never do anything important in this game all by yourself. In conclusion, be prepared to take thing slow, and one at a time, or you'll be disappointed and quit. EVE universe was made from day one to emphasize team gameplay and social networks, not the amount of SP and price tags of your gear.
Turkevich Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 39	Posted - 2013.06.07 23:56:00 - [13] - Quote The beauty of Dust over Eve is that, if I get bored with Dust, I'll still accumulate skill points forever. I see Dust as one of those games that I can pickup and put down at will. Now that Eve has erupted in another summer war, I'll be setting Dust to the side. When the war is over and I have time to get serious about Dust again I'll have another 2-3 million unallocated skill points since I'm using passive boosters.
Padmar Tech Guard General Tso's Alliance 0	Posted - 2013.06.08 00:24:00 - [14] - Quote TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote: Asmodeus Reinhart wrote: But its going to take a life time to get to the point where I can do it at the level I would like to. Short on time? Short on skill? Purchase Aurum today! Cute! HA!
Oso Peresoso Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2013.06.09 07:11:00 - [15] - Quote The complaints about slow SP have been made about Eve for years and years, but the common consensus is that its a good system. There are factors inherent in the design of both games that balance the powerful effect of high SP. Diminishing returns for high SP, issues of specialization vs generalization. The benefits of lvl 5 skills are usually either a 2-5% bonus to something, or having access to proto gear, which is balanced by being very expensive. Like eve, some roles have higher barriers to entry than others. In both games, being in the right place at the right time, having the right weapon for the job, and playing intelligently and creatively will allow a lower SP player to beat a higher SP player. As for FPS players having shorter attention spans compared to EVE players, I would argue DUST accounts for this in various ways. A new Dust player generally has more roles/options to be effective than a new eve player. In Dust, and unlike Eve, you get SP rewarded directly for playing. Dust players also have access to boosters and and aur gear. Oh yeah, and Dust players can get instant battles, unlike Eve players. I think the real issue here is expectations management, not that the SP-system is broken. Firstly, for progression games, and certainly for FPS games with progression, players are just not used to the idea of making irreversible, meaningful choices in their character's development. I think most gamers (even those from other mmoRPGS) are used to being able to max out everything in a month and enjoy the metagame where everyone is at that plateau. But that's not Eve, or Dust. Its gonna take a long time to specialize in 6 different roles, and even then you still won't be able to everything "perfectly." I think the expectations are made a bit worse with the beta-vets who managed to get refunded huge amounts of SP and ISK and have a definite advantage over others. I've got a 60mil SP Eve pilot, but in Dust I'm running around with 1.5m SP and mostly basic gear. I don't considering myself a great FPS player, but my K/D is respectable, and when my team wins in skirmish, I usually have contributed quite a bit to that effort. I do not feel like I'm being dominated by other players with more SP. The militia shotgun seems to destroy people just fine from my perspective. (I do think some more guidance/information on the skill system is due from CCP though, the skill tree fits like a glove for eve-vets, but I imagine it being a bit intimidating for anyone else to decide where to put hard-earned SP with so many choices and little information).
Asmodeus Reinhart Ninth Rim 24	Posted - 2013.06.09 08:50:00 - [16] - Quote Oso Peresoso wrote: Blah blah blah Philosophical nonsense Blah blah blah It's a shooter. This is not eve. unfortunately those who created it lack the fundamental understanding shooters are not played in this manner. This isn't revolutionary. It's broken.
TcuBe3 THE STAR BORN Dark Taboo 20	Posted - 2013.06.09 19:36:00 - [17] - Quote Asmodeus Reinhart wrote: Oso Peresoso wrote: Blah blah blah Philosophical nonsense Blah blah blah It's a shooter. This is not eve. Any comparisons involving Eve's mind numbing skill vs time mechanics are irrelevant. If it took you 7 years to unlock prestige 1 in COD no one would play it. Time invested compared to the ability to use what I want is excruciating. While were on the subject - why have such a gear related spread anyway? Narrow the gap between militia and proto. Why should anyone be indestructible in a game because the played it for "X" months and not because they are actually good? It's BS logic at best and is completely balanced out of every other FPS. unfortunately those who created it lack the fundamental understanding shooters are not played in this manner. This isn't revolutionary. It's broken. I'm sitting on the cap and its Sunday. Why even turn it on for the next couple days? Nothing to work for. Maybe a couple hundred SP per match? As if the regular few thousand wasn't insulting enough? For that matter I don't really gain much for playing it at all. I'm served almost as well just letting my character sit and collect unemployment SP while everyone else is hard at work. I know how the sticks and buttons work. I know what I could do if I had the stuff unlocked I want. Why play at all? Just wait a few months until I can hop on and buy it all? This is lazy garbage at best. Combine that with the cap and its like encouraging people not to play. Can't even grind it out. I'm not building an empire. I just want a few guns and a suit or two. Jesus H... AMEN... When I turn a game on I'd like to actually have a chance. As far as I'm concerns this game rewards me with a pitiful amount of SP. I'm more inclined to turn this game off and build passive SP for a year, if this game lasts that long.
George Moros Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 3	Posted - 2013.06.10 07:57:00 - [18] - Quote Asmodeus Reinhart wrote: It's a shooter. This is not eve. Any comparisons involving Eve's mind numbing skill vs time mechanics are irrelevant. If it took you 7 years to unlock prestige 1 in COD no one would play it. Time invested compared to the ability to use what I want is excruciating. While were on the subject - why have such a gear related spread anyway? Narrow the gap between militia and proto. Why should anyone be indestructible in a game because the played it for "X" months and not because they are actually good? It's BS logic at best and is completely balanced out of every other FPS. unfortunately those who created it lack the fundamental understanding shooters are not played in this manner. This isn't revolutionary. It's broken. I'm sitting on the cap and its Sunday. Why even turn it on for the next couple days? Nothing to work for. Maybe a couple hundred SP per match? As if the regular few thousand wasn't insulting enough? For that matter I don't really gain much for playing it at all. I'm served almost as well just letting my character sit and collect unemployment SP while everyone else is hard at work. I know how the sticks and buttons work. I know what I could do if I had the stuff unlocked I want. Why play at all? Just wait a few months until I can hop on and buy it all? This is lazy garbage at best. Combine that with the cap and its like encouraging people not to play. Can't even grind it out. I'm not building an empire. I just want a few guns and a suit or two. Jesus H... Saying that DUST is not EVE would be like saying NASCAR is not Formula 1. Sure it isn't, but you can't say that it's because NASCAR involves driving in reverse and the goal is to pass the finish line last. Some basic principles should apply to both games since they belong not only to the same lore but also (to some extent) the same gaming environment. I'm certain that some people don't like the idea of having to wait for years to unlock certain things in a game, but some obviously don't have a problem with it (EVE players). I certainly don't mind, but since I'm a EVE veteran it's safe to say that it's because I'm already "broken" for that game concept. On the other hand, most of the online shooter community is not accustomed to such gaming mechanics, but IMHO that's only one more reason to try DUST. It really is something new in the online shooter market. Of course, there's no guarantee you'll like the concept, but then again, there's no guarantee that every COD or BF player will like (for instance) ARMA. Not every game is for everybody. EVE certainly isn't, so I don't see why DUST should be. CCP has a reputation of not being "just another gaming company", and with pretty good reason. They never had the approach of trying to appeal to the masses, but are really trying to create something unique and special. And, of course CCP is paying the price for it. EVE online will (probably) never be played by millions, but the people who do play it will continue playing it until Tranquility turns to dust (pun not intended). I suspect DUST will have a similar fate. It probably will get better and better over time, but it will never be a type of shooter that everyone will want to play.
Asmodeus Reinhart Ninth Rim 26	Posted - 2013.06.10 17:50:00 - [19] - Quote I hear you. If the goal is to build a shooter that only appeals to people who are already broken in on an EVE time scale then the game is exactly that. The link between the games is weak at best however. I just don't see the need to adhere to that same mechanic down here on the ground in Dust. I just think building a game for a very narrow audience is illogical if you would like to be successful and profitable as a company. I obviously play Dust. I'm obviously used to other quicker forms of fps. And this isn't one big QQ post. I just think something needs to be done to rectify this so the game is more approachable for the average player or the game will not last long enough to be what it could be. If we have to use the infernal EVE mechanics then the training grounds need to be expanded. 1M SP with a hand crafted cap system in place. No tier 3 racial suits. /assault/logi. No proto. Everyone is stuck at max tier 3 weapons. No prof skills. Cap stays on until you leave the academy. When you leave the academy you start gaining SP as usual again. And your SP goes back into your bank in a full respec so when you start the actual game you can fix your errors in SP expenditure right there from what you learned fighting in the academy. I'm getting close to 1.5M SP and I still have no idea which race I like. Whether I want caldari amarr or minmatar suits. I still haven't found a weapon I love. I just found out all the ugly. Armor tanking is useful if you have a logi- and if not your screwed. The assault rifle is useful, but the ranges in this game are infuriating. The hit detection on the flaylock and mass driver are wonky at best. Direct hits often pass through people. The smg at level one is either a scythe or a dull butter knife depending on what you are shooting at. And the scrambler rifle is a death ray IF you can land a charged shot. I can sit in the middle of no where and counter snipe with the best of them. But this is not fun to me at all. I don't mind reviving or healing. But the Nan inj is completely broken. The most effective weapon in the game ? Murder taxi. Just run people over. I have two alts with about 700k each and they are heavily specialized. Assault / caldari and amarr heavy. And I still have no idea what gun I want to use. IM waiting on a respec but even if I get it. No clue. If I went scrambler I'd say amarr? Heat bonus. I considered shotgun. But I hate the light suits and their usefulness on any mode other than ambush is 0. This is why the SP thing is a pivotal issue. Either let me unlock and use everything in a reasonable amount of time so I can see what I need to do. Or allow respec's at any point in time. Anything less just is going to annoy me until I have to put it down. And so will many others.
Wolfica Planetary Response Organization 20	Posted - 2013.06.10 19:50:00 - [20] - Quote I hold a 1.86 KDR and guess what im running half the time? a militia gallente assault with all militia or basic gear. something you will learn when you do get to the proto level is that they cost any where from 120k to over 200k. so guess what unless you don't die you wont be able to run them every match. so even though I have 4,000,000 SP placed in my heavy suit I cant run it every match. the most important things to skill into are the armor and shield mods. after that you have the ability to skill into any suit. ive been playing for around 4 and a half months now and have learned that a squad running basic or militia gear can pub stomp a team of solo players in more advanced gear. this game is like eve you need connections, so stop bit**ing about not having enough skill points and find a corp and some players you like to play with and go take a planet or something. also If you sit in a npc corp you will go no where and will just get bored as well as never really learn anything. there are many corps out there that will take you in and show you the ropes, I suggest you take the chance.

Turkevich Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 40	Posted - 2013.06.10 20:20:00 - [21] - Quote @Asmodeus : CCP has announced a training ground which will allow you to experiment with every type of suit and weapon. I think this will address most of the frustration you expressed about not knowing what to spend skill points on.
Wolfica Planetary Response Organization 21	Posted - 2013.06.10 20:46:00 - [22] - Quote yeah I believe they announced that at the last fanfest. I suggest you guys watch the videos from the last one, it will help explain where they are taking dust/eve in the future.
Turkevich Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 40	Posted - 2013.06.10 21:04:00 - [23] - Quote Most of the complaints I see about the skill system are from people who want instant gratification. Dust will never be that kind of shooter. It only takes about 1.5 million skill points to get into a competitive build if you specialize. This will take about 4-5 weeks of grinding if you buy a merc pack and get some boosters. That isn't much investment for a game which should be around for many years. If you refuse to invest any money in this game then just make a character now and come back in two months.
George Moros Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 4	Posted - 2013.06.11 05:24:00 - [24] - Quote Asmodeus Reinhart wrote: I hear you. If the goal is to build a shooter that only appeals to people who are already broken in on an EVE time scale then the game is exactly that. The link between the games is weak at best however. I just don't see the need to adhere to that same mechanic down here on the ground in Dust. I just think building a game for a very narrow audience is illogical if you would like to be successful and profitable as a company. Oh, the EVE-DUST link currently is weak, no argument there. But it will get stronger and stronger. DUST will eventually get to the point where it will have one core element that makes EVE such a great game - player driven economy. Linked with EVE's, of course. Maybe this doesn't sounds like a big deal, but beleive me, when even something as trivial as buying and selling ** on the market becomes a form of PvP that can make you rich and the other guy lose a fortune - it will become a big deal. Now, of course, you may say that CCP released a half-finished product because ail those features concerning EVE-DUST link aren't in the game, but you simply have to cut them some slack in that recpect. They are truly taking the unbeaten path with this, and rushing it could have really devastating consequences on both games. And finally, as for CCP not being a profitable company... interestingly enough, CCP manages to function (and grow) just fine for over 10 years, with subscription numbers that would in some other companies be viewed as utter disaster and complete failure. How they do it? I have no idea. But it seems to work. Quote: I obviously play Dust. I'm obviously used to other quicker forms of fps. And this isn't one big QQ post. I just think something needs to be done to rectify this so the game is more approachable for the average player or the game will not last long enough to be what it could be. If we have to use the infernal EVE mechanics then the training grounds need to be expanded. 1M SP with a hand crafted cap system in place. No tier 3 racial suits. /assault/logi. No proto. Everyone is stuck at max tier 3 weapons. No prof skills. Cap stays on until you leave the academy. When you leave the academy you start gaining SP as usual again. And your SP goes back into your bank in a full respec so when you start the actual game you can fix your errors in SP expenditure right there from what you learned fighting in the academy. I absolutely agree on several points here. The game is currently confusing in some elements, even for me. Academy should be a place where you can actually learn ** about the game (and it's lore), not just a place where you won't get raped by vets. The game horribly needs a map where I can (if nothing else) spawn solo and just run, shoot at wooden dummies and get the feel of the weapon/equipment I'm using before I get to the battlefield and embarrass myself because I have a remote explosive fitted, but no clue how it works. As for the starting SP and limits, your ideas seem fine, but there's one other thing... in EVE it's possible to have (comparably) very low SP and still be useful in combat with your much higher SP fleetmates. DUST should have a similar mechanic (don't ask me how, I have no idea).


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