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[Request] Change Dren Pistol/Swarm Launcher to tier 1 CPU/PG fitting cost

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Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 777	Posted - 2013.06.04 17:26:00 - [1] - Quote I purchased the Elite pack when it first released. Since then I have used the Dren Logistic suit, Sentinel, Assault Rifle, Scout, Shotgun, and lunch box (some previously mentioned facts may be incorrect). I actually was really looking forward to the pistol and Sentinel suit. I enjoy the sentinel suit. I currently use Adv suits but I am trying to encourage myself to run cheaper gear more often rather than rely on items. I look forward to the templar sentinel and using it as well. The pistol was also very exciting to me because I never have been much use with the SMG. It is a solid weapon. I enjoy it. I can get kills with it, however the pistol has exciting moments where I have been stared down by an opposing heavy with good gear, and currently higher HP. I keep backing up towards cover, my HMG needing reloading, he knows my chances slim, he rounds corner with the advantage but I have a clear headshot ready for him (from sighting his head while playing chase around a nullcannon) and BAM, his shields just broke, bam bam. Two body shots and he is on the floor. When I received the Dren pistol I tried my best to see what suits could fit it. Sadly with the upgrade to Adv tier suits and extra points from Respec I was able to dedicate the points I needed into electronics and engineering (woe is me I guess?). As a result I was able to very much optimize my prefered suits. Often I now have to choose between upgrading to Assault Pistol or upgrading to adv grenades. Choosing grenades generally first (flux those uplinks people). As a result of my fittings being so tight I can not feasibly use the Dren pistol without reducing my modules. Very often the lack of 3 pg or 9 CPU results in needing to downgrade from complex to enhanced, or enhanced to basic. The fitting difference between basic and adv flux grenades is 9cpu and 1pg. Which means in no scenario with extra space would the flux grenade not be more reasonable (isk cost is certainly higher but it is not a high cost certainly). In the end though I don't feel the above matters terribly much. What I do feel matters is my enjoyment of the item. In the end equipping the weapon would make me happier. Significantly? No. Would it make me happier forever? No. But I don't quite understand why I can't have it. In my mind I must choose either between better items on my suit, or a nicer looking sidearm. I actually use the pistol anyway. The additional cost to me upon finding out the Dren had militia fitting costs was ~24k SP, and ~120k ISK for 200 pistols (currently at 120 left after ~2 weeks, though I sometimes use assault pistols too as I view them as superior). Which is where my confusion comes in. The cost of using the BPO is 9cpu, 3 PG. This same benefit I happily spend hundreds of thousands of SP to gain on all my suits. The cost for gaining that CPU/PG is 24k SP and probably a high estimate of 300k ISK a month. Would many people likely change to pistol purely for fitting reasons? Potentially yes, though people seem equally liekly to like either. In fact for the swarm launcher I'd find this a very good thing, as it's use is very limited currently. Pistol as well but overbalancing is generally not a good idea. idk I just really want to use this pistol, I like not having to worry about buying more, I like having something a little unique, I think the 24k to get the extra round in the mag is worth it regardless, and I guess it bothers me that in order to use this thing I bought I would need to actively work to decide what part of my fitting can be changed to accomodate, and also when (through various upgrades and etc) I can fit it because I have extra room. That time should be spent playing, not refitting my suits to fit a different skin. As a note for others coming in cold on this. The Dren AR/Shotgun features full basic stats. The Dren Pistol features full basic stats (faster reload time) but has the same cpu/pg of a militia item. The same goes for the Dren Swarm Launcher as well. tl;dr; I feel the extra CPU/PG cost of the Dren Pistol detracts from the point of the game and the intention of said item. I do not believe it was meant to be burdensome to use but it currently is as the extra fitting requires special attention.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 777	Posted - 2013.06.04 17:26:00 - [2] - Quote Old thread here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=77725&find=unread
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 777	Posted - 2013.06.04 18:37:00 - [3] - Quote I am intentionally leaving that out as in the support mail I received I had mentioned the Templar Pistol and they said they could not comment as the item was not actually released yet. But yes I agree and hope it will be that way.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 777	Posted - 2013.06.04 20:01:00 - [4] - Quote they said the same thing like 3 weeks ago when I was at 666. Take that moonracer(?)!
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 786	Posted - 2013.06.05 12:56:00 - [5] - Quote There is always the next number. My current goal will to spell out 8008. Because I'm that mature. Anyway bumping with the fact that this has to be one of the easier requests to fulfill. Compared to requests for rebalancing, respecing, new suits, new weapons, fix weapons, fix skills, etc etc etc. Heck if there is no fear of a balance issue this is easier to do than the new wallpaper I requested! Should this be reason enough to do it? No and I understand that but how hard does one need to campaign for something like this? Because I'm prepared to g-darn double it.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 786	Posted - 2013.06.05 17:00:00 - [6] - Quote well it could be included in whichever one comes next, I'm not talking a stop the presses thing here
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 803	Posted - 2013.06.07 12:53:00 - [7] - Quote I would even be happy with a decent counter argument as to why not btw. Just why this shouldn't be.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 818	Posted - 2013.06.10 12:36:00 - [8] - Quote Geirskoegul wrote: I too have the elite pack, but this isn't really an issue. Train your fitting skills and learn that everything is a trade-off: do you want more offense or more utility? Know that carrying more equipment means less room for weapons, and vice versa. This is not a problem, but the system working as intended. I'm curious what you feel is the trade off. The weapon with which the the pistol emulates has a fitting of 11cpu/2pg. The Dren has 20cpu/5pg for the same stats. Regardless of my fitting skills the fact remains that with the extra space provided with a normal pistol could be used to use an upgraded grenade/weapon/module. You mention the tradeoff of offense or utility. In this instance the tradeoff is you gain 675isk for the cost of 9cpu/3pg. The amount of SP I have willingly put into increasing my fitting stats an equivalent amount is so great that even if a 1:1 equivalent relationship were assumed I still would have spent more SP than the ISK spent for several months of pistols. We also have the lack of needed SP spent. However the pistol is so cheap in SP cost that I could earn the dues in several games. Keep in mind this is generally a reserve weapon as well, and anyone wishing to take advantage of it as a primary weapon would be using higher tier weapons or simply would happily pay the cost for a standard pistol, both in skill and isk. In the end the primary mechanics of the weapon (because of fitting costs) become such that I simply spend time seeing what suits could fit it after any skills are purchased which grant me more space in my fittings, which is tedious and from a design perspective, not fun. Freya Tegley wrote: I doubt it's "working as intended". None of the other merc packs have sold militia-quality items. The point of spending cash on a pack is that you get things you can't get already from the market - which is already chock full of militia blueprints. I doubt they meant to make a whole bunch of standard quality items... then make the sidearm a militia-fit instead. As stated, support has replied that it is indeed working as intended, you are welcome to message them yourself
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 822	Posted - 2013.06.10 18:40:00 - [9] - Quote Zeylon Rho wrote: I recall from my Raven/Sever support experience that they initially gave me a line about how event items wouldn't be reimbursed (despite it now being one), and quoted some things back to me. At some point, after three messages or so, they acknowledged a mistake an refunded me. It may be that if there is no "note" or whatever on it, that the GMs are told it's "as intended". That is, anything not on a "known issues" list internally gets that reply. It could still be dev-overlooked though. Fair point and certainly possible. I suggest we talk louder and LOUDER until someone says something.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 827	Posted - 2013.06.12 17:27:00 - [10] - Quote Maybe the problem is it's too rational. Maybe we need to ask for half the CPU/PG of normal items.

Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 827	Posted - 2013.06.12 20:19:00 - [11] - Quote hrm fair point. I figured my argument for what is fun would do the trick. I mean I usually go through my fits and see what can be adjusted after gaining new CPU/PG etc. Seeing what can fit a Dren as opposed to regular is just extra time where I have to check each fit. I'm about to go into either assault or logi gallante for a specialized build. Every time that build changes, whether through new equipment being available, new suits, better nades, new variations, etc etc. I have to spend an extra amount of time seeing if I can use something better if I went to standard Pistol. Now I do this anyway for the suits. If I downgraded this mod could I get another tier of this other one? Hrmm I might be close to using enhanced instead if I just used a standard grenade. I just got better fitting, I should see if I can use a sidearm again with my ideal build. However there is a large difference for me when I try and fit the dren. Mostly because the practice itself is a focus on optimization. Even if you don't obsess over that stuff, if you're willing to see what can fit then it means your willing to make an effort to be optimal. I'm sure many people more find fitting changes as they stumble upon them or leave extra CPU/PG as is not really caring. Valid things to do. However going back to those willing to optimize, and fitting the Dren in where they can, this does not coincide with the effort. A contrast is my medium fit where I use a standard SR. Due to PG use it is more difficult to fit. An exile would serve me fine really but the SR has a slight edge in my mind for my purposes and playstyle. That being said not all my fits can handle the SR do to fitting requirements. My uplinks fits for example will not fit an SR. However as I've increased my fitting skills I've gone back and seen what can and cannot fit. New things opened up. I fit an SR and swapped out modules that I was also happy with in order to keep it tight but workable. This allows me to use a longer range single shot, low ammo consumption weapon which I need without leveling AR for the tac (post nerf even). It also serves as a good weapon to keep heads down when holding ground. I make sacrifices for the privileges. Now instead I have the Dren, in which I also did do this. But it was not satisfying for me to do. It does not save me the same SP as the exile/SR bargain. It does not save me significant ISK, it does not give me a significant option in playstyle. However both these acts require the same amount of time which I hold precious and don't often get enough of for my taste. To me this distracts from fun activities. Now granted sometimes things that "can" be fun, aren't done. Often for many reasons. Sure being a super god would be fun, but destroys balance and the fun doesn't last long. Infinite ammo would be convenient, managing it is a hassle, but again this wouldn't help things. 30% damage reduction to heavy might make the heavies feel good but destroy balance and fun for others. Making the SR identical to the AR in terms of versatility might sound great but it would cause an imbalance of SR use because SR is more interesting but just as effective. I can't figure out what the barrier is preventing the change. I don't think anyone would complain P2W if it was altered. More pistol users might appear but I don't think a significant number as already argued. Granted now some people DO make sacrifices for style. Warbarg Bling forces a suit you won't use to the top fitting. This means it is slightly slower for you to change fittings at times. I've lived on that time when an enemy was on my tail I promise you. But I think the cost is lower, and the benefit for aesthetics much higher in that instance.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 827	Posted - 2013.06.13 12:25:00 - [12] - Quote Eh I don't like bringing $$$ into it. The concept that because I paid 100$ for the pack (aside from the fact that other items were included) should not differ if I paid down near the militia BPO cost. While certainly I don't think two things should be priced the same but one should be better, the amount higher in price shouldn't dictate how much better. If it is an oversight why no response at all? Why no response for how long in tech support forum, why no response here? Certainly someone with some actual connection should have read this topic by now. I've posted here, tech support, messaged tech support, and emailed Spero. Messaging tech support directly did get a response but nothing else and we do not know how the response was generated.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 828	Posted - 2013.06.14 12:19:00 - [13] - Quote And now we play the waiting game... which is much harder than the complaining game.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 833	Posted - 2013.06.17 16:23:00 - [14] - Quote In the old build proficient pistol users were actually pretty deadly. They'd use 2 pistols with mods, and focus on headshotting. Without sharpshooter though I think that died out a lot.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 840	Posted - 2013.06.18 12:17:00 - [15] - Quote I think I'd have to reserve judgement on that until I had tried higher tier pistols. In the same way my HMG hits a nice range point with the MH-82 where the standard HMG feels just slightly short. Could be that the higher tier pistols are better. For the flaylock if you can hit at that range I'm impressed though it makes for a strong suit if you have height advantage and can hit the ground.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 841	Posted - 2013.06.18 16:31:00 - [16] - Quote What about travel time?
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 844	Posted - 2013.06.19 12:15:00 - [17] - Quote Making sense is a terrible idea in the entertainment industry. I guess I'm at an advantage there though, since my HMG already has me in closer range than most.That being said a good point is it would not be good for the pistol to be a weapon able to simulate a long range primary weapon. Like using a shotgun then a pistol for engaging at range, or same with an HMG if it can shoot that far out. Right now though I took a brief break from the game and my aim is crap so it's hard to use recent encounters for my thoughts. Sucking too hard.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 883	Posted - 2013.06.24 14:49:00 - [18] - Quote This is true, and my words on balancing in conjunction with this may provide the reason. Granted I believe it to be an argument hanging by a thread but if it even needs investigation then other things will take precedence. Still hoping for a solution though.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 897	Posted - 2013.06.26 12:50:00 - [19] - Quote All I'm saying here. Is make the Dren pistol CPU/PG match a regular pistol. Then make it fire like an SMG, then give impact points a bonus splash EMP effect, then automatically deploy an orbital on that location. Even in PC. F everyone, scorched earth man.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 910	Posted - 2013.06.28 13:43:00 - [20] - Quote The info is incredibly old and unreliable but these items were included in the data dump given to us before uprising. The data was found to be fairly inaccurate and was quickly changed for balancing and etc. However what I can tell you is the original stats (note NO fitting info was included) matched that of the militia pistol in that it had a longer reload time. Based on the progression of the stats I've seen since then it is likely it will be a pure militia weapon. Also note that the recruiter AR has the ammo capacity of militia, these two things aren't stats that were updated nor initially incorrect. It is likely that all recruit rewards are militia grade BPOs.

Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 919	Posted - 2013.07.02 12:28:00 - [21] - Quote Melai For'Aiur wrote: The Scrambler Pistol (STD) is already so cheap, I can't imagine this is out of concern for the economy. Well I imagine it would be more a concern for balance. The pistol has a tremendous potential for killing in the right hands. I assure you I am not those hands. But I know they exist. Granted the costs aren't much of a concern, but balancing could be. I might be unaware of some history that might indicate it as a potential threat, and you have to wonder if a pistol had been released with the merc packs instead of the SMG, what would be more popular now? I don't think the above warrants the situation but it's a thought and when you have incomplete information like we do sometimes it's best to find the possibility of arguments rather than assuming. Still. Dren. Dren. Dren. Dren. That also being said if the Devs are looking for more arguments, I hope they consider the fact that the change they are implementing in regards to event rewards as indicated by the weekly feedback responses thread is fundamentally related to the Dren Pistol. Namely that the nature of the event rewards precludes them from use or at least common use. Granted this is a different issue but if melted down it has the same result. Due to the cost (one being inventory, the other being fitting) the item becomes less desirable to be used. The Dren less so (I sure as **** am never equipping a Black Eagle suit), but this does not mean it isn't important as well. The dren is unusable on many of my fits, therefore it is not used, therefore I have a nice reward that I think is cool but cannot use and becomes a trophy. I'd also like to re-iterate that while this is easily fit on lower tier suits (I have electronics 5, engineering 4, core upgrades 3), the Dren pistol is a sidearm and therefore often relegated to "additional". By which I mean I would not invest additional ISK due to the fact that it is not in heavy use and the currency would be too often wasted. What that means is if we compare it to the Dren AR, where in prototype gear you might look crazy using it. A prototype scout, assault, heavy (if you're into that kind of thing) would be much diminished because you're increasing capability but not improving on the killing tool (which is often the goal). So the contrast is the pistol is 100% still an option in those proto suits. I might run a Boundless on my heavy but I have much less incentive to improve on my sidearm in the same way. So while I might wear a proto suit with full complex mods, adv-proto grenades, and proto weapon, you will probably still see a standard sidearm as backup. So this means that the viability of the Dren Pistol is increased as opposed to the other weapons in terms of frequency. However the fitting when placed on anything but basic or lower suits becomes an issue when better modules and weapons are asking for the CPU/PG. The point being, the nature of the weapon and it's role means that the fitting becomes a major issue that removes ranging worth of the basic sidearm that the other versions enjoy. Another comparison might be if the Dren AR had militia CPU/PG use, and the effect that would have on Adv and Proto logi fittings. Would you fit that CPU/PG on adv/proto logi when you could fit better modules and equipment? The weapon is often secondary if you are playing a support role but if it impacts you're primary objective it will not remain in place.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 966	Posted - 2013.07.05 13:24:00 - [22] - Quote Nope
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1013	Posted - 2013.07.10 11:39:00 - [23] - Quote Still hoping
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1042	Posted - 2013.07.15 15:17:00 - [24] - Quote don't forget sniper rifle. Covenant has basic stats.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1046	Posted - 2013.07.19 13:06:00 - [25] - Quote Don't really see too many sidearm kills from anyone these days, still see SMG but not as much as before. Would love to have a complete dren suit too. Pew pew.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1055	Posted - 2013.07.25 12:28:00 - [26] - Quote Jathniel wrote: LOL. Holy **. that is funny as OP. So damn happy I didn't buy those bpo packs. MLT fitting costs?? For real?! That is funny as *. They fkin charge you a Pound and a Crown for some MLT bpos. That's beyond all kinds of phucked up. Holy phucking . That's outrageous. Gonna spread this ** like wild fire, OP. It's cute too, because they hide the fitting requirements and the stats of the bpo gear. LOL good catch OP. So sorry for them ripping you like this. It is just a couple of them. Dren rifle is standard, can't remember the others but I haven't had issue fitting the shotgun on the few occasions I did (not my weapon of choice). Additionally the Dren Logi IS a 0 SP cost tier 1 logi BPO unlike the Sver which requires you to be skilled into it. I skilled into Gallante Logi where the basic version has bad stats so having that Dren Minmatar Logi is a nice fall back. Assault is shrug, already had dragonfly but I like being able to put together a solid skin color with the weapon, I do have a fitting with the swarm launcher just in case but I'm pretty deep into forges, and then it also gives me access to a Tier 1 Sentinel (or heavy, idk their stats are the same) which is good for going low cost on my heavy which can be difficult. I don't think there is another option for a free Heavy non-militia suit. Also that being said the Ishukune Watch Saga is pretty nice and I was able to put some decent militia BPO mods on it without skilling into CPU/PG. It's nothing special but it's free and better than the normal free. Also for whatever reason the Dren Swarm Launcher won't zoom in but I'm not sure if that is a bonus or a penalty since it locks on the same.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1055	Posted - 2013.07.26 12:48:00 - [27] - Quote RedRebelCork wrote: Any update on this? $100 is a lot for militia gear.... Again, the pistol and swarm launcher are the only one with mixed stats. MIXED not miltiia. Pistol and swarm launcher have the stats of the basic versions of their weapons but use the CPU/PG of militia. Shotgun and AR have basic stats for both weapon stats and fitting. All suits are basic tier of their respective role.
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1055	Posted - 2013.07.29 16:13:00 - [28] - Quote True but his response implied everything was just militia level, don't like misconceptions
Rynx Sinfar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1077	Posted - 2013.08.02 20:22:00 - [29] - Quote Guess I'll just go lay down in a ditch and die then Gonna start wearing all black and put some black teardrops by my eye so people know the dark soul that now lies within. Weep not for me... I'm already dead. But yeah seriously look into that.

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