DUST Search - WTH happened to Dust 514?

JonnyAugust wrote:

Mobius Wyvern wrote:

JonnyAugust wrote:

Viewing that original trailer still gives me goosbumps. So the general feeling is CCP switched engines but I don't quite buy that. Switching engines does not mean that you have to make new sounds from scratch, audio files should be one of the few things that would transfer with very little extra effort.

Focus on the sounds in that video, the gritty assault weapon sounds, the tracer whistles, the dropship sound when lifting off gives the impression of weight and power. Even the sounds in this current build are 4 years behind what they had back then. The excuse "we switched to Unreal Engine" does not cut it for me.

Looking closely at the details in that video, the concrete barriers are literally the same we have now. In fact, it looks like the build they showed there is about one year away from the current build if they maintain the same amount of progress as we have seen in the past.

The unreal engine can be beatiful on PS3, I just bought Bioshock infinite and that is a very pretty game with terrific sounds. I can understand sacrificing graphics to fit more players into the game but we are still at about the same capacity as Battlefield3 boasts for ps3 in terms of player counts.

There is simply no excuse for the way this game has progressed in my opinion. New engine or not, something else happened within this company and design of the game that drastically changed was they were capable of. It could very well be as simple as they ran out of money.

Did you see my earlier post?

"Switching engines" quite literally means writing your game over again from scratch. As I said in my previous post, even migrating the game I used to work on from CryEngine 2.5 to CryEngine 3 would have involved throwing out everything we'd made and starting over.

Please don't make grand pronouncements about things you don't understand.

Englighten me how the pre-recorded sounds inside a sound studio and then formatted for a different engine are then rendered useless by the simple switching of a engine?

You're blinded by your own ego and percieved experience to have any decent opinion on this matter.


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Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1708	Posted - 2013.05.30 23:07:00 - [1] - Quote Night Ward wrote: Rolf The Viking wrote: Footage from 2009 was old engine. CCP switched to the Unreal engine to get Dust out quicker. If that's really the case.. oh man, Shame on CCP. They were using the same engine that runs EVE Online, which in no way would have worked on a console. The old 24 player matches would have been slideshows in that engine. Also notice how bland the environment is in those videos.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1709	Posted - 2013.05.30 23:21:00 - [2] - Quote Malkai Inos wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Night Ward wrote: Rolf The Viking wrote: Footage from 2009 was old engine. CCP switched to the Unreal engine to get Dust out quicker. If that's really the case.. oh man, Shame on CCP. They were using the same engine that runs EVE Online, which in no way would have worked on a console. The old 24 player matches would have been slideshows in that engine. Also notice how bland the environment is in those videos. What about the ps4? Would it be possible? You would throw the advantage of the UE3 beeing platform agnostic and highly compatible to the upcoming UE4 into the bin. I don't think it would be worth it, both in development time and cost. Trinity 2.0 was not designed to support a shooter, and if they had beta'd this game under that engine, it would have shown in a major way. UE3 was the better design choice than both scrapping Trinity 2.0 AND trying to develop a new proprietary engine. Better to use something that works and redirect their focus. For those that claim changing engines is somehow easy, when I was working with the Dev team for MechWarrior: Living Legends, our players used to ask us if we had any plans to upgrade to CryEngine 3. Even considering that we were using CryEngine 2.5 at the time, just that -small- upgrade would have required that we retool all of our systems and assets from the ground up. Now apply that to the idea of switching to another engine completely unrelated to the original.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1709	Posted - 2013.05.30 23:27:00 - [3] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I believe it's called "selling the sizzle, not the steak" Still love those videos though I can't wait to see the features in them. It's not secret I'm mainly here for the Fighters.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1711	Posted - 2013.05.30 23:37:00 - [4] - Quote BL4CKST4R wrote: Chinduko wrote: I'm sure Unreal isn't the only platform CCP could have gone with, maybe it was just the lowest priced option. I'm disappointed with Dust's Uprising and miss the old builds, as well. There are better options out there obviously, this game was supposed to be as "grand" as Battlefield sort-of-speak, look at the actual size of the maps, these maps were made to support large scale warfare jets and stuff. Unfortunately CCP changed engines, it changed the gameplay, and at the moment what we saw is not possible. They could change the engine again to one that would support bigger gameplay but I doubt they would make the investment. The biggest investment would be time, not money. What people don't realize is that would mean taking the game offline completely and it being a -minimum- of 2-3 years before we even see it again. Games engines aren't something you can just swap out.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1712	Posted - 2013.05.30 23:45:00 - [5] - Quote Cygnus Gogela wrote: it reminds me of Aliens: Colonial Marines in a lot of ways... Same game engine changes and everything... Oh please, this is in no way to the same extent as that trainwreck.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1725	Posted - 2013.05.31 05:02:00 - [6] - Quote Night Ward wrote: So if the PS3 can't handle Carbon, why downgrade the gameplay, content and quality so drastically to be able to run on PS3? When a new system would be available during the same year of release, especially when releasing a FTP game in a starter line-up for a new Console would or at least seems really good as an invesment? Who would not try out a free game when they just spent all that money on the new console? Surely the player count would be/should (be) much higher than 10k for a FTP game? Just seems to me that downgrading a game so much from what was shown in 2009 isn't the right move, but then again what do i know, i am not a game developer, just a gamer. As long as the aurum is rolling in they should be happy i guess. They'll have plenty of time to work out a PS4 client, and with games like Destiny offering cross-play on the same network, you can even keep playing with your friends on PS3s. I'm glad they decided to make this a console game. As far as I'm concerned, console gamers have been fed generic copy-paste garbage for several years now as far as the shooter genre, and no one has really tried to make a game of this scale for the console. I like how they're giving people without gaming PCs a chance at experiencing something on this scale.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1744	Posted - 2013.05.31 12:32:00 - [7] - Quote Vyn Drayko wrote: I don't much care about the graphics of the game. Graphics in games are always trying to rival each other, and some of the greatest games ever have mediocre graphics (Morrowind for example is still being in sold in stores for PC) I'm curious/upset why they scrapped the FEATURES. Fully enterable buildings Open Air vehicles Fighters Command Centers Construction by commander Long distance resupply/battles They obviously made the attempt in the original beta, when we had the multi-stage maps. Those were at least interesting even if there were only two. Now, Dust is a watered down game where every mission is identical except for the field you play on where all that matters is whether or not you have a duvolle tac, instead of having a skilled commander/logistics organization. Those features aren't scrapped. ALL of them are confirmed for later deployment. Whether or not they should have launched when they did is immaterial at this point. They did, and there's no going back. At this point, they're working on deploying more features while fixing current issues, so the release date honestly doesn't mean much to us. I have complete confidence that we'll see everything that was in the 2009 Stage Demo by next year, by the third expansion if not the second. Hell, we already having ******* MTACs confirmed for the first one, and the CSM has hinted that we might even be getting new planet types before PC spreads from Molden Heath. Keep calm and shoot on.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1745	Posted - 2013.05.31 12:47:00 - [8] - Quote JonnyAugust wrote: Viewing that original trailer still gives me goosbumps. So the general feeling is CCP switched engines but I don't quite buy that. Switching engines does not mean that you have to make new sounds from scratch, audio files should be one of the few things that would transfer with very little extra effort. Focus on the sounds in that video, the gritty assault weapon sounds, the tracer whistles, the dropship sound when lifting off gives the impression of weight and power. Even the sounds in this current build are 4 years behind what they had back then. The excuse "we switched to Unreal Engine" does not cut it for me. Looking closely at the details in that video, the concrete barriers are literally the same we have now. In fact, it looks like the build they showed there is about one year away from the current build if they maintain the same amount of progress as we have seen in the past. The unreal engine can be beatiful on PS3, I just bought Bioshock infinite and that is a very pretty game with terrific sounds. I can understand sacrificing graphics to fit more players into the game but we are still at about the same capacity as Battlefield3 boasts for ps3 in terms of player counts. There is simply no excuse for the way this game has progressed in my opinion. New engine or not, something else happened within this company and design of the game that drastically changed was they were capable of. It could very well be as simple as they ran out of money. Did you see my earlier post? "Switching engines" quite literally means writing your game over again from scratch. As I said in my previous post, even migrating the game I used to work on from CryEngine 2.5 to CryEngine 3 would have involved throwing out everything we'd made and starting over. Please don't make grand pronouncements about things you don't understand.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1747	Posted - 2013.05.31 12:52:00 - [9] - Quote JonnyAugust wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: JonnyAugust wrote: Viewing that original trailer still gives me goosbumps. So the general feeling is CCP switched engines but I don't quite buy that. Switching engines does not mean that you have to make new sounds from scratch, audio files should be one of the few things that would transfer with very little extra effort. Focus on the sounds in that video, the gritty assault weapon sounds, the tracer whistles, the dropship sound when lifting off gives the impression of weight and power. Even the sounds in this current build are 4 years behind what they had back then. The excuse "we switched to Unreal Engine" does not cut it for me. Looking closely at the details in that video, the concrete barriers are literally the same we have now. In fact, it looks like the build they showed there is about one year away from the current build if they maintain the same amount of progress as we have seen in the past. The unreal engine can be beatiful on PS3, I just bought Bioshock infinite and that is a very pretty game with terrific sounds. I can understand sacrificing graphics to fit more players into the game but we are still at about the same capacity as Battlefield3 boasts for ps3 in terms of player counts. There is simply no excuse for the way this game has progressed in my opinion. New engine or not, something else happened within this company and design of the game that drastically changed was they were capable of. It could very well be as simple as they ran out of money. Did you see my earlier post? "Switching engines" quite literally means writing your game over again from scratch. As I said in my previous post, even migrating the game I used to work on from CryEngine 2.5 to CryEngine 3 would have involved throwing out everything we'd made and starting over. Please don't make grand pronouncements about things you don't understand. Englighten me how the pre-recorded sounds inside a sound studio and then formatted for a different engine are then rendered useless by the simple switching of a engine? You're blinded by your own ego and percieved experience to have any decent opinion on this matter. So you just play an audio file and it sounds right in all situations? You do realize how much the engine sculpts and modifies the audio file to make it suit the environment you're playing in, right? That's been a standard of game design for quite a while, as just varying the sound volume based on distance with no reflection of surroundings kind of went out of style more than a decade ago. If you want more information, look up the videos Bungie made on their sound design in Halo, and setting up the engine to allow sounds to echo off of some objects and be muffled by others. You don't just code that and have it sound perfect with whatever file you put in, you have to tweak the original file along with the underlying code until they form the proper mix.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1750	Posted - 2013.05.31 13:05:00 - [10] - Quote JonnyAugust wrote: So you just play an audio file and it sounds right in all situations? You do realize how much the engine sculpts and modifies the audio file to make it suit the environment you're playing in, right? That's been a standard of game design for quite a while, as just varying the sound volume based on distance with no reflection of surroundings kind of went out of style more than a decade ago. If you want more information, look up the videos Bungie made on their sound design in Halo, and setting up the engine to allow sounds to echo off of some objects and be muffled by others. You don't just code that and have it sound perfect with whatever file you put in, you have to tweak the original file along with the underlying code until they form the proper mix.[/quote] Apples and Oranges, I'm talking about the actual sounds in that video. I didnt mention reverb or any additional processing, that's a whole seperate topic. No amount of processing is going to make the current AR sound like the one in that video. No Processing is going to make that dropship sound the way it did in that video. The basic sound quality of everything in DUST514 is below the basic sound quality in that video. [/quote] Uh, all the guns in that trailer sounded like something you could fire today. The weapon designs were the same way. When I look at that trailer, I feel like I'm back trying to figure out how Halo justifies everyone using regular old bullets and not a single directed energy weapon in sight more than 500 years in the future when we have functional ones right now. This is related to the same "nostalgia" factor of all the people who want to go back to the earlier Dust builds, completely discounting all the claims of terrible mechanics and boring gameplay they themselves made while playing those builds. What we have no may not have the same feature set as that build, but when it does, there won't be any reason to look fondly at that old junk anymore. When I watch that demo, I hear current day weapons with extra bits added on to sound "futurey". When I play Dust today, I feel like I'm actually an immortal soldier 20k years in the future. Does the audio need more work? Of course, and the audio team themselves stated that in their DevBlog on the topic. Just like with EVE, we'll be getting iteration on sound design for many years to come, and new assets with new sounds being deployed into the mix. If you're worried about quality, what we have right now is far from the final version.

Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1751	Posted - 2013.05.31 13:17:00 - [11] - Quote JonnyAugust wrote: I don't like the argument that future sounds have to sound wimpy. I could care less if things have bullets or not (mind you nearly every small weapon in this game has a clip) The lack of punch in any of the sounds to date are an immediate turnoff for anyone starting this game. That AR didn't sound like it had punch. It sounded like it was firing pellets. As well, that's partially why the redid the AR sound to what it is now. It has that nice bass thump on the bottom of the shot to make it feel like you're shooting a powerful weapon while still leaving you with the distinction that you're firing plasma and not bullets. I think a lot of this will get cleared up when you hear the Combat Rifle. Since it's firing an otherwise unremarkable ammo type, I bet you anything they'll make up for it with volume and lot's of delicious bass, just like Minmatar weapons in EVE. I would wager that all Minmatar weapons will be the same way. The weapons we have right now are energy weapons, and they sound like energy weapons. The HMG sounds like a rotary cannon should, and the SMG is firing tiny little rounds that don't have much of a kick. Once we get more of that race's weapons, you'll likely see that they're designing the audio around the type of gun you're firing. I can see where you're coming from, but you don't want to end up like Halo 4 where everything sounded overly chunky and for one example, the AR sounded like a heavy machine gun because they wanted "beefier audio".
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1767	Posted - 2013.05.31 13:25:00 - [12] - Quote JonnyAugust wrote: I think we are starting to see where each other are coming from. I just finished a match and listened to the MCC exploding. I wouldn't mind hearing your opinion why the explosion of a ship the size of an outpost sounds like someone yawning. An excellent example of something that needs more work. I think most of their audio design has been focused on weapons over the last few months, as that MCC explosion sound hasn't changed for quite a while. In fact, I'm not sure it's different from when I got in for Replication last April, but don't quote me on that.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1767	Posted - 2013.05.31 19:34:00 - [13] - Quote Ok, in response to Jonny's statements about sound, how about this as a suggestion. In the Battletech universe, there is a weapon called a Particle Projection Cannon, which is effectively a plasma cannon. They've had kind of wimpy sounds in previous MechWarrior titles, so for Living Legends, we decided to mix in the sound of a lightning bolt. How about we go from the current AR noise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=11F-LuJ-8zs#t=60s To one with a little bit of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LCxj9D6Pv_8#t=35s What do you think?
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1775	Posted - 2013.06.01 01:16:00 - [14] - Quote K9 Wez wrote: Seems to me CCP bit of more than they can chew. Wonder why CCP hasen't commented on this. Would like an official statement on what happened. I don't think this is the kind of thing they're required to make official statements on.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1776	Posted - 2013.06.01 03:42:00 - [15] - Quote FatalFlaw V1 wrote: How many more times can mobius rush to defend ccp while dropping his past experience working on a game nobody played. Looking for a job much? Less defense and more making a point it isn't as easy as some people think. And our mod was actually far more popular in Germany and Russia than in the US. Most of the servers that are still up are based there, which makes it kind of hard to get good pings. BASSMEANT wrote: " "I don't think this is the kind of thing they're required to make official statements on." or... it's not polite to talk when ones mouth is full. Peace B I'm going to guess the punchline for that one is "of ****", or something similar?
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1776	Posted - 2013.06.01 04:06:00 - [16] - Quote dabest2evadoit7 wrote: Night Ward wrote: First of let me show you two clips from back in 2009 Epic Trailer Epic Demo Now log into the game....... Do you see a difference in gameplay. content and quality? WTH happened? What i'm playing on my ps3 is not the Dust 514 that I was advertised about. Its actually faaaar from it. Feels like a watered down bull#%#% version of what was shown back at 2009. How can CCP as a game company say at Fanfest 2013 "We are proud to announce that Dust 514 will be released on the 5/14 this year" and release this Alpha quality product when they advertised a far superior product back in 2009? Someone please explain WTH happened? Feels like I'm playing an Alpha version of Dust 514 when I look at the footage from 2009. Wow! I cannot put in to word the way my face looked when I seen that trailer and demo. WTF! Where is that game? Wow, I am speechless. They showed us steak and gave us the dog food. I really fail to see what's so great about those. It just looks like any other generic shooter.