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Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
196
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Posted - 2013.05.30 17:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
Easy: you don't catch up. Just as new players to EVE will never catch up.
Thankfully, the skill and equipment systems work beautifully to level the playing field: a two month old player can match a ten year vet IN ONE THING. The fit your bring to the fight is the only thing your skills affect, and so only those relevant skills come into play. The older player can do more things, but still only one at a time, just like you. You're on equal footing if you choose to specialize (like you should; this is a squad-based game, talk to your mates, find what you all like, and build a TEAM, not a clump of jack-of-all/master-of-nones.)
This is simply how it works, and there's nothing you can (let alone should) do to "fix" this wonderfully functional dynamic without breaking everything and making it all pointless.
Thankfully, this is an FPS, and so your SP and how fancy your gear is matters even less than it doea in EVE; YOUR skill matters far more than anything else (just ask the protofits I spank with militia gear). |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
196
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Posted - 2013.05.30 17:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
Whackjack wrote:Geirskoegul wrote:Easy: you don't catch up. Just as new players to EVE will never catch up.
Thankfully, the skill and equipment systems work beautifully to level the playing field: a two month old player can match a ten year vet IN ONE THING. The fit your bring to the fight is the only thing your skills affect, and so only those relevant skills come into play. The older player can do more things, but still only one at a time, just like you. You're on equal footing if you choose to specialize (like you should; this is a squad-based game, talk to your mates, find what you all like, and build a TEAM, not a clump of jack-of-all/master-of-nones.)
This is simply how it works, and there's nothing you can (let alone should) do to "fix" this wonderfully functional dynamic without breaking everything and making it all pointless.
Thankfully, this is an FPS, and so your SP and how fancy your gear is matters even less than it doea in EVE; YOUR skill matters far more than anything else (just ask the protofits I spank with militia gear). Yes, unlike in EVE where a majority of your chance to hit anything stems from your in-game skills making your guns track faster and fire faster and all that jazz, in DUST it's all about how quickly you can mouse/stick the targeting reticule over the enemy and keep it there. Player skill instead of "ctrl+click and f1." You're greatly underestimating the skill factor in EVE (tell an interceptor pilot his job is just to click approach, then orbit, and start shooting; better yet, ask the proteus pilot that hit approach on my sieged blaster moros lol).
That said, you're right where you're talking about dust :-) |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
197
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Posted - 2013.05.30 17:29:00 -
[3] - Quote
Whackjack wrote:Geirskoegul wrote: You're greatly underestimating the skill factor in EVE (tell an interceptor pilot his job is just to click approach, then orbit, and start shooting; better yet, ask the proteus pilot that hit approach on my sieged blaster moros lol).
That said, you're right where you're talking about dust :-)
Yes, I know that with manual flying you can reduce the rad/sec and such to get hits on smaller/faster targets (I can't do it for **** but I've seen it done) but that's why I said "mostly." Most of a ships damage application and aim comes from skills and not so much from the player's ability to keep a steady aim. The other stuff you mentioned was damage evaison. But yeah, to those who can manual fly to do great things, I salute you. o7 If you want a great way to practice, use an assault frigate for l4 missions (if your skills are high enough, message Spork Witch and I have an ishkur fit you're welcome to). It requires paying attention to angles so you don't get nailed bad, and it also requires managing even radial velocity to help your damage output (there are some enemies you can't kill without doing it right, though i've only run into one npc ever in l4s that i couldn't put out enough DPS to finish off solo).
I'll also provide you with the full turret damage formula if you like, i have it (and the missile formula) saved as a note on EVE. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
197
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Posted - 2013.05.30 17:50:00 -
[4] - Quote
Judy Maat wrote:"players on the bottom start to understand they will not catch up ever" GVGISDEAD
THIS^^ Understanding they'll never catch up is a good thing. Understanding that it doesn't matter, and all the reasons why, is even more important.
All the OP's suggestion will do is exacerbate exactly what he's whinging about. You think people being held back by the (more than reasonable) cap is what's responsible for the gap? Hell no, that cap is the only thing keeping the people with massive free time from completely eclipsing EVERYONE else. As it stands now, the cap limits how fast they can widen the gap between the passives. It sets an upper limit on maximum skill gain separate from playtime alone, and this is a good thing, for EVERYONE, players and CCP alike. EVE has been openly and widely praised for just how well the nature of this skill system balances the issue found in all the other games: the level 80 automatically beating anyone lower. The praise is deserved, and it's those 80s ganking 10s that have the hardest time understanding why this system is so beautiful and works so well. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
202
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Posted - 2013.05.31 14:27:00 -
[5] - Quote
Rogue Saint wrote:The problem is game modes, throwing low SP teams against high SP stompers is the reason for QQ. CCP needs to balance the pub matches to be SP driven so people don't roflstomped every match. Doing so is unnecessary and would perpetuate the myth that SP is more important than skill by lending the delusion credibility. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
202
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Posted - 2013.05.31 14:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Daedric Lothar wrote:GVGISDEAD wrote:
---------------------SIDEBAR-------------------------- Hopefully those are just your alts characters ... Stuff that will probably end up getting me banned for trying to name and shame
I don't get time to play much. I'm not addicted to video games. I have this thing called a full time job and kids and a wife and responsibility. And I also don't care about KDR. I run cheap fits instead of protogear and have no problem suiciding into the enemy. Mostly beacuse I play games to vent stress rather then to stroke my Epeen. But I'm glad you found something in your life that you can be proud of. I wouldn't worry about it much, ad hom attacks, especially based on KB stats, are the best sign of someone who has no real argument. Not to mention that poor KDR is hardly anything new or surprising on someone that flies support the majority of the time. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
202
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Posted - 2013.05.31 14:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Halador Osiris wrote:Daedric Lothar wrote:GVGISDEAD wrote: ---------------------SIDEBAR-------------------------- Hopefully those are just your alts characters ... Stuff that will probably end up getting me banned for trying to name and shame
I don't get time to play much. I'm not addicted to video games. I have this thing called a full time job and kids and a wife and responsibility. And I also don't care about KDR. I run cheap fits instead of protogear and have no problem suiciding into the enemy. Mostly beacuse I play games to vent stress rather then to stroke my Epeen. But I'm glad you found something in your life that you can be proud of. I've got a full time job, kid, girlfriend, and responsibilities, and I've still got more than a couple hundred kills. If you got 5 kills a game, you'd be at 300 kills in 60 games. The game's been out for ~20 weeks. You can't play more than 3 games a week? I'm single, and just from work alone generally can't get more than a few hours in per week these days. Dust also isn't the only game I play. There's also my earlier point about support; when you're busy keeping everyone else alive, your own kills aren't exactly high (never mind the matches with a bagillion assists and one kill; would be nice if they tracked assists as kills, like they do in EVE, since final blow, even if it did 1 damage, is all that matters right now.) |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
203
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Posted - 2013.05.31 16:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Halador Osiris wrote:Geirskoegul wrote:Halador Osiris wrote:Daedric Lothar wrote:GVGISDEAD wrote: ---------------------SIDEBAR-------------------------- Hopefully those are just your alts characters ... Stuff that will probably end up getting me banned for trying to name and shame
I don't get time to play much. I'm not addicted to video games. I have this thing called a full time job and kids and a wife and responsibility. And I also don't care about KDR. I run cheap fits instead of protogear and have no problem suiciding into the enemy. Mostly beacuse I play games to vent stress rather then to stroke my Epeen. But I'm glad you found something in your life that you can be proud of. I've got a full time job, kid, girlfriend, and responsibilities, and I've still got more than a couple hundred kills. If you got 5 kills a game, you'd be at 300 kills in 60 games. The game's been out for ~20 weeks. You can't play more than 3 games a week? I'm single, and just from work alone generally can't get more than a few hours in per week these days. Dust also isn't the only game I play. There's also my earlier point about support; when you're busy keeping everyone else alive, your own kills aren't exactly high (never mind the matches with a bagillion assists and one kill; would be nice if they tracked assists as kills, like they do in EVE, since final blow, even if it did 1 damage, is all that matters right now.) And with that being said, why do people who don't play much feel entitled to the same benefits as the people who do? Be glad this game gives you passive SP so you are still improving your character even when you don't play, but don't try and complain because you don't have as much SP as a player like me who caps out every week. Have you even read the thread? I've been one of the most adamant, in this and others, about NOT lifting the cap, and the FACT that SP just isn't that important in the face of teamwork and skill. My point was that pointing to total kills and KDR as if those grant or remove credibility is about as legitimate as saying their gender matters. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
203
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Posted - 2013.05.31 17:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
TcuBe3 wrote:I agree that higher sp players are not gods, but this game rewards me more for putting the game down and building passive SP than it rewards me for actually playing the game. That is why I say this game isn't play to win, it is sit on wait to build sp to win. Why isn't the weekly active booster at least double what I could earn with passive sp gain? 1) Your argument is predicated on the idea that SP matters more than skill and experience, along with isk. None of the things that really matter are capped, and you can't gain any of them while logged out.
2) Passive SP over time is less than the active SP cap for the same time period.
In short, you're welcome to sit and passively gain SP by not playing, but you won't actually be gaining much, since you won't have the isk to buy any of the gear it goes to, and you won't gain any of the skill and experience that actually playing gets you. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
203
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Posted - 2013.05.31 17:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
Daedric Lothar wrote:Geirskoegul wrote: 1) Your argument is predicated on the idea that SP matters more than skill and experience, along with isk. None of the things that really matter are capped, and you can't gain any of them while logged out.
Well, to be fully truthful and honest though. A player who gets 10,000 WP and graduates the academy with like 1M skill points probably just has a full set of STD gear. That player is going to die horribly MOST of the time when he comes across the 1.4k HP Protologi. I'm not going to argue that anything is fair with a < 5M SP character vs a > 5M SP character. I pretty much run BPOs exclusively, and honestly, yes, it's harder, but it's about teamwork and playing better. That makes all the difference. Now for the vast majority, especially very early on, I could see that making a bigger difference, especially since so many seem to think this is Halo or Call of Duty and try to lonewolf it, thinking that "teamwork" just means calling out what you see (at most) instead of actually working as a team.
The only times i've run into trouble have been against VERY well-built full-proto its on vehicles. I managed to steal an LAV the other day that could tank a railgun installation and two guys with militia AV, but that was a very clear example of someone spec'd completely into maxing that out. The only real issue there is that they don't enforce skill requirements for use like in EVE, so he could call in six of those and brand new players could then climb in (like I did after killing him and hacking the LAV; I have no points in vehicles, focusing almost exclusively on core skills like HP, PG, and CPU). |
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Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
206
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Posted - 2013.05.31 17:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Krom Ganesh wrote:Why not just lift or reduce the skill point cap for people below a certain amount of sp? New players could more easily get to a competitive level of sp and the vets are still held back from gaining too much sp. Nothing wrong with that, so long as it kicks in once they hit ~4-5m SP total. Eve does basically the same, with doubled training speed until you hit 1.6m SP, and boxed copies of the game even come with an implant that offers pretty big bonuses (relatively) that only works for your first 30 days (account time, not play time). |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
206
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Posted - 2013.05.31 18:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
bacon blaster wrote:Geirskoegul wrote:Easy: you don't catch up. Just as new players to EVE will never catch up.
Thankfully, the skill and equipment systems work beautifully to level the playing field: a two month old player can match a ten year vet IN ONE THING. The fit your bring to the fight is the only thing your skills affect, and so only those relevant skills come into play. The older player can do more things, but still only one at a time, just like you. You're on equal footing if you choose to specialize (like you should; this is a squad-based game, talk to your mates, find what you all like, and build a TEAM, not a clump of jack-of-all/master-of-nones.)
This is simply how it works, and there's nothing you can (let alone should) do to "fix" this wonderfully functional dynamic without breaking everything and making it all pointless.
Thankfully, this is an FPS, and so your SP and how fancy your gear is matters even less than it doea in EVE; YOUR skill matters far more than anything else (just ask the protofits I spank with militia gear). Evidently, you've yet to run all basic gear against an all proto gear, being on the side of basic. Player skill is real nice and all, but when there is a huge disparity between the levels of gear, player skill matters less. If they're fit the same maybe, not if they're rolling appropriate counters. Even then, teamwork and skill still win out. I've yet to have proto infantry that gives me significantly more trouble. In fact, as i pointed out earlier, the only trouble i've seen is militia AV against fully proto-fit vehicles, and that can be solved by simply bringing out more AV; one person SHOULDN'T be able to solo a tank. |
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