DUST Search - Election process mecanics thoughts. Discussion welcome.

Cassonetto Sovrano wrote:

Laurent Cazaderon wrote:

WP based requirement to vote

Still this solution has a downside as well. As soon as the WP requirement for the first election will be known, active players will raise their alt characters to that level over time, expecting to use those to vote multiple times during the first (if doable) or at least the second election.

Thus, the WP requirement would need to be raised year after year to avoid people slowly building up many many alt accounts. It would work as a counter measure but hurt new players willing to invest themselves in the entire community mechanics and CPM election as in a few years the WP requirement would be way too high for them to catch up (especially if it grows every year).

I would propose a slight variation; instead of raising the required total WP each year, how about we go by WP earned in the last year? It requires the player to be active, weeds out anybody who just started playing, but doesn't create the long term issues of just raising the cap.

Abu Stij wrote:

Oh god no, whoever suggested the Real Life ID & Aurum ideas needs to be told to stop coming up with bad ideas.

If you have a voting system that has a benchmark requirement to vote that is say, spitballing here so take it with a pinch of salt, 20mil WarPoints it caters to the players who put effort into the game, and actually care about the "trivial" thing such as a CPM vote.

Figuring out the best level to set that bar at is the tricky part.


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Laurent Cazaderon What The French CRONOS. 1474	Posted - 2013.05.30 09:31:00 - [1] - Quote Hey guys. Here are some thoughts regarding the election process and logistics. This is not a proposition made by CCP but my own thoughts on the matter that i also shared with CCP and now with you. Please feel free to tell me what you think of all this. Everyone votes, no condition. This is the basic democracy but its main flaw is pretty obvious regarding how the PS3 identification for players work and how easy it is to create dozens of accounts. Election would be a race among who has the most active people supporting him and creating multiple accounts to vote over and over and over again. On the other hand, it's probably the simplest process to set in motion and would allow everyone, even a 2 days old player to vote. But is it a good idea ? I dont think so. Time Based requirement to vote Time based would allow to keep newer and misinformed players out of the voting process. That's the main advantage here. It is also what seems to be a very easy system to implement to an election process. Only problem is that this requirement will only limit multi-account for the first year. In fact, even the first election will see people voting with multiple account as many of the active players already have multiple day-one accounts. And as soon as those will now all they need is an old enough account to vote, they will create a lot of them for the second CPM election. And empty accounts only used for CPM election, is bad in many ways. Also, after how long do we consider a player being ready to vote ? 3 month, 6 month, a year ? Even a 3 month old account may in fact be a player with very few knowledge of the game. Definitely, time doesnt seem to be a good criteria to use. WP based requirement to vote This one is very much like the time based requirement but is more rooted into Dust's context. Multi-account voting would require more than just creating an account and using it once a year as you would need to work to get to the WP requirement. It also allows for a more relevant way to decide when a player is ready to vote as WP earned mirrors knowledge of the game far better than for how long a character has existed. ( 250000 WP in a month is worth more than 50 000 WP over 4 month) Still this solution has a downside as well. As soon as the WP requirement for the first election will be known, active players will raise their alt characters to that level over time, expecting to use those to vote multiple times during the first (if doable) or at least the second election. Thus, the WP requirement would need to be raised year after year to avoid people slowly building up many many alt accounts. It would work as a counter measure but hurt new players willing to invest themselves in the entire community mechanics and CPM election as in a few years the WP requirement would be way too high for them to catch up (especially if it grows every year). Conclusion, even if better on paper WP requirement isnt the perfect solution either. In my opinion it should be an addition to whatever the main voting system is. AUR item requirement to vote I really dont like this solution.. but here's a few thoughts anyway. Main advantage is that even with a very cheap AUR item, it would stop many people from voting through multiple accounts. Why ? Because even if the "vote ticket" costs only 5 AUR, you'll still need to buy at least 1.99 euros\dollars or whatever worth of AUR for your alt account. So, those who actually use those alts to play will probably not bother. But they will not create dozens of alt accounts and invest 2 $ on it when they know they wont ever use it again. Though, this analysis is only good until people can transfer AUR from one account to another. Or the AUR item could be expensive, but then it would give a feeling of pay-to-vote, or even worse pay-to-be-elected. And Dust, no CCP, really doesnt need that. Overall, requiring people to pay to get a vote is bad in my opinion. It will raise many many critics on the CPM elections and thus will hurt the CPM action. Real-Life ID verification to vote This is, and i never hid it, the best solution imo to counter people voting multiple times. In Eve, you need a paid account to vote. Or at least if you want to vote multiple times for free, you'll still need one account feeding plex to those alt accounts. The best solution would be to mimic that system in Dust and check people based on their credit card information. No need to pay for anything, CC acts only as a digital ID. Once a person voted using a specific credit card, it registers the information and locks it out of voting. Many ways to do this : - Use Sony's PSN data as Dust is tied to PSN anyway. - Use the EVE web so people can create an account, and tie to their PSN account registering a CC with name, adress etc.. and then voting. Each CC, name etc.. being used to avoid multi-votes - Use a built in web interface inside Dust. It has been done in several video-game (mass effect) and would allow to access a web CCP based UI to use credit card and vote. Now i know what you're gonna say. What about people who dont have a credit card ? I'm gonna be blunt and say that 99.5 % of the players can at least get access to a "friendly" credit card. Aka Mom\Dad if needed. Sure some people may manage to use 2-3 different credit cards from ppl they know but i'm pretty sure that's the most painful way to get access to multiple votes. So, If any of those CC verification is doable, combining this verification process AND a WP based requirement to ensure people voting are both unique and having knowledge of the game would be the ideal system. What do you think guys (and gals) ?
Laurent Cazaderon What The French CRONOS. 1474	Posted - 2013.05.30 09:58:00 - [2] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Real ID verification. Not like its going to matter. Bigger alliances are just going to stack the election with multiplerepresentatives, same as the CSM That's only one part of the election process. Dealing with multi-votes and allowing voting to player with a minimal knowledge of the game. Representation is another debate, that's about the exact form of the election.
Laurent Cazaderon What The French CRONOS. 1479	Posted - 2013.05.31 07:59:00 - [3] - Quote Cassonetto Sovrano wrote: Laurent Cazaderon wrote: WP based requirement to vote Still this solution has a downside as well. As soon as the WP requirement for the first election will be known, active players will raise their alt characters to that level over time, expecting to use those to vote multiple times during the first (if doable) or at least the second election. Thus, the WP requirement would need to be raised year after year to avoid people slowly building up many many alt accounts. It would work as a counter measure but hurt new players willing to invest themselves in the entire community mechanics and CPM election as in a few years the WP requirement would be way too high for them to catch up (especially if it grows every year). I would propose a slight variation; instead of raising the required total WP each year, how about we go by WP earned in the last year? It requires the player to be active, weeds out anybody who just started playing, but doesn't create the long term issues of just raising the cap. Good suggestion dude. I guess it could be done by CCP as a back-end information. Or perhaps add a statistic "this year WP" in the char screen. Would indeed kill one of the issues. Yet, one problem remains : How do you get new motivated players to reach that WP requirement ? And still make it discouraging enough to avoid people farming a lot of voting accounts ? I guess we would need to see average WP earned per month to discuss a number as it's quite difficult without hard data. Abu Stij wrote: Oh god no, whoever suggested the Real Life ID & Aurum ideas needs to be told to stop coming up with bad ideas. If you have a voting system that has a benchmark requirement to vote that is say, spitballing here so take it with a pinch of salt, 20mil WarPoints it caters to the players who put effort into the game, and actually care about the "trivial" thing such as a CPM vote. Figuring out the best level to set that bar at is the tricky part. Voting for CPM shouldnt be restricted to people who care about meta-game or the position itself. It should be opened to anyone who has an interest for the game and enough knowledge to pick out a candidate that promotes specific aspects of the game one would want to see improved or worked on. As for real life ID, it's only a way to avoid elections becoming a race to who's got the largest amount of supporters with alt accounts. A simple fake credit card transaction used to register name and avoid another vote from the same person would work.
Laurent Cazaderon What The French CRONOS. 1541	Posted - 2013.06.10 12:41:00 - [4] - Quote Kevall Longstride wrote: I like the idea that some one posted earlier about limiting it the MAC address of your PS3. It's a good one indeed. If it's doable it's probably the best solution to counter multi-accounts voting.
Laurent Cazaderon What The French CRONOS. 1558	Posted - 2013.06.12 07:36:00 - [5] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: The MAC adress is a non-starter for me. You have households where multiple people use the same PS3 and I see no reason in disenfranchising them because they only own one PS3. Also, the voting process needs to be something completely in CCPs hands and that means in-game metrics. Same goes for the credit card idea, which in my opinion is also bad. You shouldn't have to provide a credit card number to vote in a free to play game. At some point one, compromises will have to be made ! What's the percentage of players that would be left out with such mecanics ? Imo, not much. Now, how many players could wrong the voting process with a WP mecanics through farming alt accounts ? Imo, a lot more. Greater good > need of the few. Took that from a friend. Sad but real.
Laurent Cazaderon What The French CRONOS. 1625	Posted - 2013.06.24 14:12:00 - [6] - Quote Eddie Rio wrote: ok, adding my two cents then,,, the best way would be some form of real life identification vote, but for a free to play game this has issues... but just like CPM/CSM give there real names is a great way of weeding out 90% trolls so too would having to give your details to vote... so maybe only a psn account with a credit card attached to it? if people get all pissy about it cus they dont have a credit card (they will have to ask mother) Couldnt agree more. And regarding the unique ID of PS3 (aka mac adress). Maybe it can be spoofed, but the big question is how freakin easy is it to do. And i really think it isnt. EDIT : another solution i thought about regarding preventing multi account voting would be to use some kind of download through PSN. The same way you DL a small file when using an online pass for many games, you could have to DL a small file when you first vote on your PS3. Once that file is DL and installed, it would "block" the console from voting again. Though this could probably be overcome by formatting the console and reinstalling the game. But it would be painfull.
Laurent Cazaderon What The French 2132	Posted - 2013.11.15 10:59:00 - [7] - Quote Draco Cerberus wrote: Laurent Cazaderon wrote: PS3 MAC adress limitation, suggested by sammus420 and Draco Cerberus Would serve the same purpose as a "real life ID". Limiting one vote per PS3. Sony aldready uses that system to keep track of how many different ps3 DLed a game for example. If doable, probably the best solution to counter multi-votes. I've suggested this in more than one thread already. Glad that you recognized one of the people suggesting this. You're welcome. And i also think it would be a good solution mixed with other "protections" such as a minimal WP earned to ensure people vote with actual knowledge of the game. Also, on the matter of household having multiple users, you could limit vote per MAC adress to 2. It still efficiently limits abuse and offers more room for such situations. This Char i only use on the forum. To contact me : "Cazaderon" in game and on Skype. Et vive la France !