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Malkai Inos
The Vanguardians Orion Empire
199
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Posted - 2013.05.30 23:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'll just leave this here
Malkai Inos wrote:The skillsystem is supposed to give weight to your decisions concerning role and gear. Increasing Specialization goes along with increasing effort and time required, increasing the cost of changes the further one goes. Bearing the consequences of ones decision is a central aspect of the new eden philosophy and is a worthwhile aspect for this reason alone but not exclusively.
The skilltree differs from many other progression systems in that it is not just a strife to power but rather a strife to flexibility. Once you max all relevant skills of one progression you can choose to invest into a second one, and then another and so on. This means that while the amount of SP to be had is in practical terms unlimited (there is a set amount but i don't expect it to be reached, possibly even through the game's lifespan) there is a limit of power any given combination of suit/gear can have. That allows (relatively) new players to compete with year old veterans if they full on specialize. The vet can still use his excess SP to change his role in a whimp, giving him the deserved advantage over the newer player but the total possible gap is limited.
A system without respecs can also dramatically shift the power between new and old blood, whenever new gear is released. New situations and fits emerge that veterans first have to spec into just as new players, giving the latter the chance to compete even early on if they're smart. That gives Vets a changing enviroment where staying on top is an ongoing cognitive effort to adapt to the changes.
If CCP were to introduce respecs, both concepts would break down.
Everyone could become everything without any time effort invested, giving flexibilty as a default and rendering excess SP near worthless, thus lowering replay value and, of course profitability (boosters, anyone?). It would reduce the skillsystem to a comparatively short powergrind and nothing else. No one likes grinding (i guess).
More dramatic even is the effect that Vets with enough SP can switch to whatever is new, OP or just interesting, depriving new blood of the chance to jump into the game and compet on the new content. This leads to a "why bother" effect where players avoid the game because they could never become relevant without millions of SP and leaves the high SP chars with an unchallengeable superiority and ultimately with boredom due to lack of competition.
TL;DR: NO
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Malkai Inos
The Vanguardians Orion Empire
199
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Posted - 2013.05.31 00:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
Draco Cerberus wrote:As a vet who knows that new equipment is coming down the pipeline, I am one of the many that believe optional respecs should be available. My personal preference is that as new gear is introduced or major changes to how the equipment is being "balanced" occurs that the option becomes available to do a respec.
Many people use the TAC ARs at this point in time because it allows them to be competitive with heavies, mcc snipers and the other medium suited mercs who are using the weapon and we all know that when the other rifles are introduced the TAC is going to be nerfed (as stated by ccp: range and damage). I would like to use one of the new weapons when they come out and hope that the respec option will be available again, unfortunately due to needing a weapon now, I used my SP as I saw fit and would do so again under the same situation. I see where you're coming from here and a limited respec to, for example, all the amarr heavies to switch to their preferred race might be acceptable. Anything beyond "racial symmetry" i.E. stuff that is not yet announced or whole classes that don't exist yet (e.g. pilots, commandos) should not lead to respecs. Getting into new stuff quickly to get an edge should be an important part of one's skillchoices.
Draco Cerberus wrote:As If respecs were allowed once per year (like attribute changes in eve online) I believe it would be fair and would limit people from constantly changing their skills to the flavor of the month. Whether this is a paid service or not, I believe the option should be available. Personally I would rather just be able to select an option in the UI to respec character when I have a respec available rather than the need to contact customer support for this service.
In Eve the client software handles attribute adjustments, this would be the Dust equivalent. I realize this is more programming that would need to be done but I imagine that it would save devs and customer support staff a great deal of time were this feature to be offered through the game client itself rather than make it a customer support issue. Then, when a player has earned a respec, they could wait and save it until something new comes out or use it to correct a mistake they made when choosing a skill last week or a year ago.
Excuse my insolence but i hear that comparison to attribute remaps in every thread about respecs at least once and i think it's a completely useless one.
First of all, attribute remaps are a remnant of the, since removed, bloodline attributes and serve no other function than to allow players to specialize their training into specific areas, wich would otherwise not be possible.
Secondly attribute remaps do not allow the relocation of spent SP in any way shape or form.
Lastly, remaps are limited to incentivice thinking ahead and sticking to ones training plans. Respecs do nothing of the sorts as they allow you to make a complete turn without any investment or second thought (other than AUR, maybe). Remaps are specifically designed to be as far away from respecs as possible. |
Malkai Inos
The Vanguardians Orion Empire
209
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Posted - 2013.05.31 15:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
RoundEy3 wrote:As I stated in my earlier post here I am for a limited, non ISK/money based respec option.
I say this because despite a few elitists, purists, diehards, stubborn gamers, whatever you want to call them, believe that dust should function the same as eve on the timeline and skill investment level. I do not agree.
It shouldn't because it is a different game. It is a shooter. This is a FTP game at the core, and I'm of the opinion that bringing so much eve obsession. Forcing this kind of time sink and commitment on everyone will make them leave. Some of these people say GTFO to everyone that even suggest the idea! Even in eve (which I play) hearing other people's demands on what they consider "commitment" and "dedication" the the universe means very little to me. It is a game!
I am for finding a balance of options here, a respec that is limited, has a penalty, and doesn't cost real money or isk. Seriously, the number of people who are going to commit to a 5 year training plan with no leniency in a shooter is few and far between. Seriously, who cares enough to pledge their time and long term interests to the ideals of a few misguided game nuts. If anything just allowing a respec a couple times a year would let people try new stuff, which would probably keep them playing longer. Your argument won't get many supporters if you devote your first paragraph to an insult of all those who disagree with you.
Eve is a different game than Dust. Ok. So? Aren't they based on the same universe? Are they not build on the same basic philosophy? Are you familiar with the term Non Sequitur?
Some say GTFO because of faulty comparisons and a general lack of sound reasoning in these discussions.
Your proposition attacks the very foundation on wich the game build upon and all the justification you have to offer is that you don't like it (you are free to do so) and that you expect others not to like it either, a statement wich is weak considering that games don't have to appeal to everyone and outright useless if not supported with proper quantification.
Cut down on the hostility and try some reasoning next time you want people to share your opinion. |
Malkai Inos
The Vanguardians Orion Empire
210
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Posted - 2013.05.31 15:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
RoundEy3 wrote:There is no hostility. It's my guess that the majority of people who share my opinion will not "kiss the ring" and do something else that isn't so time consuming as keeping an edge in new eden.
I just want to see the battle fields well populated for a long time by fps players, not just those who swear by EVE, also you kind of prove one point I was stating. Some people take these games way too seriously. "Attacked the foundation" what is this a religion? I feel you, but Dust is not going to die just because part of the potential consumer base disagrees with one aspect of the game. Dust is trying to catch all those folks who like FPS but don't like the simplicity of many FPS and i believe they are legion. Ok not quite, but a game doesn't need beat COD to be successfull.
A weapons lab is on the way, new militia stuff is likely to be added, trying stuff will become easier in the future so we don't need respecs to fix this anymore.
I have explained on the first page why i think that a "no respec" policy is an important and enriching aspect of the game and why i think that allowing respecs could damage the skillsystem to a point where it's very existence is called into question.
No respecs have their own downsides an some people might leave the game because of them. Others, like me, are here partly because of this aspect and it's implications. There are people that wouldn't play COD or BF but play Dust just as there are people that don't care for WoW or Guildwars but love EVE Online. These are the ones for whom this game is made for. |
Malkai Inos
The Vanguardians Orion Empire
210
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Posted - 2013.05.31 15:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
RoundEy3 wrote:@ Cross Atu In post 8 I had a quite simple balanced proposal for adding a respec feature that would allow people to occasionally change battlefield roles. My goal here is simple, balance the requests for a respec while keeping the bonus of persistent choice. A SP penalty accomplishes nothing as long as you remain to be able to max whatever branch you happen to desire. You quickly regain SP during play and Passively and anything beyond, say 8-9m is likely to be inconsequential for many possible builds and therefore losing it will not be perceived, or act as, a deterrent in any way.
Persistent choice is supposed to be the default position and should not require to be rewarded for making, with available respecs, the inferior decision.
RoundEy3 wrote: Maybe you're lacking something to bring such a quantified and over complicated, beaurocratic, analysis system to figuring out something as plain as giving people the chance to play a game, not live by it.
Even while your remark is not aimed towards me i implore you to refrain from further Ad Hominems if you desire to continue this exchange.
RoundEy3 wrote: You are totally missing my point, the quest for the submission to the value of persistent meaning might not mean as much to other people as it does you. When you turn on your PS3 and play some dust does it fulfill your quest for meaning of choice??? Some people who are good at the game and have put considerable time into just want to play differently every now and then. Why is that such a camplicated idea?
I think everyone understands very well that different people have varying views concerning an optimal approach to a game's progression philosophy.But you also have to understand that your argument, while valid, applies equally to both sides of the argument, leaving us with an argument that lacks any argumentative power for either. |
Malkai Inos
The Vanguardians Orion Empire
210
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Posted - 2013.05.31 16:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
RoundEy3 wrote: Thank you for listening.
I can understand the adherence to eve, but it's got to be obvious that if that is the only group that picks up DUST and continues to play it there aren't going to be the large scale battles happening all over planets like people want to imagine. More likely it'll become a bunch of skirmishes between a few bad ass corps with a few pubbers here and there.
My intention here isn't all that bad...
I can perfectly understand you want the best for the game. What i would like you to consider is that we have a resonably strong and dedicated community despite mixed reviews wich poins to the fact that there are indeed numerous people who like the current system and it's implications.
Changing that system might alienate a large part of the current community and i doubt that those lost players will be supplanted by people who are perfectly happy with whatever product they enjoy now.
There is a distinct possibility that sacrificing part of Dust's unique features to raise the playercount might accomlish the oppsite. The fact is, we both can't know with certainty what the effect of such a change could be. It follows that this consideration cannot be used to inform the decision as it provides no usefull knowledge to do so.
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Malkai Inos
The Vanguardians Orion Empire
210
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Posted - 2013.05.31 16:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
RoundEy3 wrote: Ok at least you're looking at this for what it is. The great part about the SP penalty is since it is a % obviously the less SP you have the more this would affect you. Basically a young character who switches around often will find it is difficult to advance in ability overall, but the respec would allow them to switch roles non the less. Where as a vet character with many SP will find little value to even doing it in the first place since there will be a point you will have crosstrained anyhow. Also to further balance it out we're talking a couple times a year. A YEAR
By completely removing the option who is losing out? The person who is bored, unsatisfied with their current setup, wants to take on a new squad role, or the person who says "No, that was your choice" ???
Let me explain why i think that % penalties not only won't hurt low SP chars that much but why it is especially damaging for high SP ones.
We asume: A 10m SP B 100m SP
A can currently max out any class that requires up to 10m SP in total. After the respec that number powers to 8m. With 8m SP he can still max or almost max the majority of the available Infantry classes and even some vehicle classes. The lost 2m can be regained with a rather, but not quite dedicated playing scedule in about 2months.
Once A regained this 2m in SP he is able to respec into any class or vehicle that requires up to 8m again wich means that he can reasonably expect to respec six times a year without beeing affected by the penalty as long as he does not feel the need to have a secondary class. Note that he can also instantly adapt to newly added gear and take advantage of new emerging playstyles without significant penalty.
B on the other hand can spec into several classes simultaniously before the respec. After his first respec he will still be able to maximize multiple roles but his penalty is a much more significant 20m SP. B can not reasonably expect to regain that amount during the course of at least 6 months, rather a year if he is not willing to continously boost and cap out. This means that respeccing is a much more significant commitment for B wich makes him less likely to adapt to newly added gear. In fact B is in a distinct disadvantage against B if he is not willing to loose large amounts of SP wich disincentivices accumulating large amounts of SP on the first place.
This leads to an environment were having more SP than needed for any particular class is rendered the inferior approach to respeccing regularily. That is what i meant when i mentioned changes that call the skillsystem in question and one reason why i object to respecs.
AUR respecs are simply out of question to me because this would make the SP system a skinner box that serves only the purpose of extracting money from players that wish to compete.
ISK respecs are either affordable for both casuals and corps, making the SP system obsolete (skinner box) or only affordable for corps, widening the already distinct protostomping. |
Malkai Inos
The Vanguardians Orion Empire
210
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Posted - 2013.05.31 16:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
TcuBe3 wrote:I'm curious if most of the people who are against respecs are either.
A. EVE players who are "elitist a" and swear by a gaming culture that is almost a religion.
Or
B. Those who have 10+ million SP already and don't want to even the playing field.
Who we are and what we think doesn't do anything to our arguments or Ad Hominem. Just stop if you want to be taken seriously. Again there were ill informed players who wasted sp on skills that they have no intentions on ever using, lets not punish the uninformed just because they are not privy to the endless pages to skill data or fully comprehend the inner workings of the massive eve universe. The skill respec would keep the game fun, playable and forgiving to new players which is absolutely needed.[/quote]The game punishes impulsive behavior by design. I wholehartedly support any efforts to improve the NPE and am frankly puzzled by the lack of content in this field while CCP acknowledged that improvements in NPE where a huge financial success in EVE but that is still no argument for abandoning the game's and company's development philosophy. There are other ways to make the live of newberries more pleasant.
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Malkai Inos
The Vanguardians Orion Empire
210
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Posted - 2013.05.31 16:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
TcuBe3 wrote:Malkai,
I actually agree with you, I'm not trying to change your culture, religion or whatever Internet cult you follow. I would just like to see Greater access to in game references regarding each individual skill treed and the consequences of making a impulsive decision on DUST. My argument is that not every player is informed if the unforgiving nature of this game. So then we are in complete agreement concerning the underlying premises and differ only in our personal opninions about what to make out of them. Sadly, this is where it gets serious.
I would like to stress again that i find the currently available amount and quality of ingame information, be it informative and concise skill descriptions or thorough and accurate attribute descriptions of various items wholly inadequate. This, i believe leads to uneducated decisions regarding skills and gear and is the main reason for the issues that respecs are supposed to solve.I predict that if the NPE get's it's due improvements, there will be a far lower number of need for any kind of respec mechanic.
A possible solution that i find both compatible with my vision of New Eden and of great efficacy is a short but steep increase in passive SP gain for new players. Something like a 2x multiplier for caracters below 1.5m SP wich then gradually lowers until 2m where passive sp gain reaches the normal value.
This lessens the negative consequences of faulty skillchoices, provides quicker perceived improvement for new players and, most importantly, stays true to the concept of skillchoices beeing permanent. The values are of course arbitrary so there's room for discussion about how long and significant this boost ought to be. |
Malkai Inos
The Vanguardians Orion Empire
244
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Posted - 2013.06.04 01:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm trying to make this particulary easy for you.
Mike Poole wrote: Good things respecs could do?
How about providing longevity to the game without requiring the torture of the players?
Fourth and fith paragraph. Please explain why his disagreement is unjustified.
Mike Poole wrote: Without respecs and because of how this game is designed you're forced to specialize into one role if you don't want to get your *** handed to you over and over again. So what happens when you get tired of that role or a core mechanic of your role gets nerfed destroying your play style?
Without respecs you're forced to reinvest weeks and months into starting over from scratch investing in a new line of dropsuits and weapons and modules to outfit yourself in a manner that you can actually enjoy again. How many people do you think are going to just say "**** that" and quit when they're told all the work they put into their initial setup is now a pile of fetid ****?
Respecs allow people to experiment, to try something new, to grow bored with the game and have a multitude of new setups available to try out and enjoy all over again.
Whole post from third paragraph on. Please explain why Cross Atu and myself are wrong to enjoy and value the very concept wich you criticize so vehemently.
You have yet to adress any of the explained disadvantages of respecs (i am particulary looking at post #14 and there are others but i am sure you will get to it eventually.
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Malkai Inos
The Vanguardians Orion Empire
244
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Posted - 2013.06.04 02:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mike Poole wrote: How many people do you really believe are going to be playing this game for 7.5 years? This isn't an mmo where you have a varied and rich game where people can lose themselves in various aspects and enjoy themselves over long periods.
Dust is not an mmo, it's not the new EVE where people will spend years and years and years playing it. Dust is an FPS, it's complexity boils down to shooting stuff. If suddenly you're nerfed to hell and your ability to shoot stuff suddenly screeches to a halt you don't have many alternatives to fall back on outside starting over from scratch with a new setup. There's no "well I can always fall back on X" or "well I still enjoy the Y aspect of the game" or "well I'll just have fun with Z until they fix this"
Even then an artificial longevity propagated purely by arbitrarily selected point value goals is not a true longevity. If someone really enjoys a game they don't play it for a year because that's how long it takes to unlock their next skill, they do it because over that year they enjoyed it enough to come back over and over again.
What difference does it make how many people i believe to be going to play this game for 7.5 years. I know that they're there. Granted i don't have numbers. Do you have any? If no, why bringing up this point if it's not going to support either side of the argument?
Why can dust not be the new EVE in regards of people playing it for years to come? Some of us already have played for a year without any sign of wear. Also Dust is inarguably more complex than other FPSs on the market right now, with new content and depth beeing build as we speak. With the amount of metagaming, the soon to be player driven market and the level of customization, we have a game of the depth that puts even some MMOs to shame.
You keep bringing up nerfs into your arguments yet i fail to understand how that necessarily relates to the subject. When something is imbalanced it's a balancing issue first and foremost. A statement that communicaction and quality concerning balance changes have to improve by a wide margin is one that would adress your concern more selectively and efficiently. On top of that it would be a statement on wich i would agree with you. Calling for respecs to fix a seperate issue is merely curing the symptoms of a disease that should be adressed directly instead.
The last part i agree with. Artificial longetivity is neither an elegant nor effective way of prolonging player retention if it's the only measure to ensure it. You correctly state that true longetivity comes from genuine enjoyment of the game. Thus we could conclude that the current lack of motivation is rooted more in the lacking quality of the central experience than in one aspect that, by your definition, is not a central part of what a FPS is about.
Isn't the solution to this problem the ongoing improvement of the core game mechanics that CCP has declared as high priority, so that players can enjoy their gameplay experience, be it with respecs or lack thereof? In isolation your concerns are understandable. Yet i disagree with your proposed solution to this concerns both for the reasons i and others have explained (i linked my post in my last reply and we can reiterate on that if needed) and for the fact that those concerns can and should be adressed directly, not through a significant change in an otherwise unrelated game mechanic.
I appreciate your reply although i hope we can reiterate on the other points that have been raised during the course of this discussion soon. |
Malkai Inos
Opus Arcana Orion Empire
447
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Posted - 2013.06.25 16:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Stands Alone wrote:How about a partial respec? every 6 months, you get to reset 25% of your SP. they would have to add a menu where you can choose the skills that you want to back out of however, up to 25% of course Depending on the amount of SP you have accumululated, 25% can mean easily enough to completely switch one class. Remember that every skill caps out at V and any suit/role has only a limited amount of relevant skills so having for example 50m would respec 12.5m wich is easily enough to near max out most if not all infantry classes.
That means that this limitation gets meaningless for veteran players while remaining prohibitive for new players. If there's one thing this game doesn't need then it's a feature that's the most usefull for vets instead of newberries. |
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