DUST Search - Just add purchasable respecs already

Cross Atu wrote:

See posts 2, 3, 4, 5, & 7.

There are already cries that Dust is P2W. CCP has narrowly avoided crossing the line on this and I commend them all in all for how well they've done (tho the "better than Proto" AUR gear needs a touch of the nerf bat or needs an ISK equivalent.) but allow players to buy respecs and D514 is P2W no ifs ands or buts about it.

Beyond that Dust and EVE are not "separate games" happening in isolated worlds they are both aspects of the events taking place in one domain New Eden. The link between games is rudimentary at this point sure but the roadmap calls for completely integration and that disbars the use of "your choices don't really matter you can always just undo" modes of game development.

Even if Dust and EVE weren't part of a single world the idea of respecs in Dust as a common thing (payed or otherwise) is awful because of its totally devaluing effect on the secondary market. There will be no sandbox if the economics are dismissed so cavalier a fashion. The sandbox thrives on player driven effects, on choices with meaning. When changes as fundamental as what gear (and how well) every merc can run become as mutable as whim then larger things like long term tactical planning, market trend analysis (or tend setting), out of the box innovation, et al become devalued. Why plan long term when everything can be changed within minutes? Why try to understand or care about the economics when tomorrow everyone may be running max gear of a totally different type? Why innovate when everyone else can clone everything you've done after a single match?

You know what else respecs do? They kill the longevity of the game. CCP stated out of the gate (or before the gate even opened if you're counting closed beta) that they were building Dust to take around 7.5 years to max all skills (assuming there weren't new skills added along the way... Blink

) add limitless respecs and what used to require mufti-millions of SP involving years of game play to earn will now be reduced to a matter of months as everyone who's earned to the SP for a single proto build is now proto in everything since they can swap at will.

Put bluntly, unlimited respecs (yes even those you have to P2W for) sell the future of the game to appease a lack of patience or dedication among some players... and frankly players who aren't interested in being here for the long haul aren't going to stick around either way so shortening the lifespan of the game to hold on to their attention for a few weeks (or possibly months) more is not only poor game development but bad business as well.

0.02 ISK
Cross

ps ~ For those who want to talk about the EVE remap remember the following.
Being able to focus your future SP gain =/= altering your previously assigned SP.

EDIT: Also this idea has been brought up and shot down several times already, one recent example and my first post from it

Cross Atu wrote:

#20 Posted: 2013.01.21 19:44 |
Respec in a game about choices and consequences is simply a poor mechanic. Making it AUR only is even worse as that pushes the P2W side of things.

If this option is included choices cease to have a real implication you simply alter them as you desire. Want to solo for a day? Sure respec into it, want to go Heavy for awhile yup why not? Feel like using up all that salvage? Sure let's just respect into each specialized area to use the proto salvage until it runs out then swap to the next one. Nothing like that free proto ride. And when you run out of the pure proto from salvage? Sure just respec into support/core skills and run free fits until you have more free proto salvage.

Adding this option would ruin the player market as well as increase the "flavor of the month" build/exploits.
Furthermore there needs to be a certain degree of parity between both games in New Eden, and adding respec in fails to meet this bar.

-1 to respec

0.02 ISK
Cross

and a bonus

Reimus Klinsman wrote:

Respec is an awful idea and will result in a loss of money. If people could respec, it'd take just a few months to max out the SP you need for a build, then when you want to switch builds you just respec and you're set.

The lifetime of the game would be shortened from several years to a few months.

It will cheapen the game. Learn to live with your mistakes.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Chinduko KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 145	Posted - 2013.05.30 22:57:00 - [1] - Quote If CCP does not want to give respecs to players that enjoy trying new specializations, then give us more SP per match to skill up more specializations. This game will not last the estimated time CCP expects it to take us to completely get all skills. But, I'll add, people fail to realize that you don't have to respect to get the so called "flavor of the month" weapon. It would be nice to be able to respec out of CCP's foolishly over-nerfed weapons.
Chinduko KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 145	Posted - 2013.05.30 23:43:00 - [2] - Quote Mike Molle wrote: No No No No No No, I'm tired of people not making a commitment "Oh, this didn't work out as well as i thought it would, i'm gonna respec" the "**** move" would be to offer a respect AT ALL, it would be a slap in the face to the vets that play this game Oh and HTFU There are a lot of vets that would prefer to be allowed to respect and they wouldn't see a respect as a slap in the face. I prefer commitment to the team in that I could respec into any role they needed for planetary conquest. That's my commitment. If a player wants to be committed to their SP allocation, so be it. And, if a player wants to be committed to their team by a respect into a role they are missing, it sounds like being a team player. I highly doubt CCP will give respecs like that but we deserve that aren't so one-sided to only play one specialization deserve that option..
Chinduko KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 145	Posted - 2013.05.31 01:57:00 - [3] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: See posts 2, 3, 4, 5, & 7. There are already cries that Dust is P2W. CCP has narrowly avoided crossing the line on this and I commend them all in all for how well they've done (tho the "better than Proto" AUR gear needs a touch of the nerf bat or needs an ISK equivalent.) but allow players to buy respecs and D514 is P2W no ifs ands or buts about it. Beyond that Dust and EVE are not "separate games" happening in isolated worlds they are both aspects of the events taking place in one domain New Eden. The link between games is rudimentary at this point sure but the roadmap calls for completely integration and that disbars the use of "your choices don't really matter you can always just undo" modes of game development. Even if Dust and EVE weren't part of a single world the idea of respecs in Dust as a common thing (payed or otherwise) is awful because of its totally devaluing effect on the secondary market. There will be no sandbox if the economics are dismissed so cavalier a fashion. The sandbox thrives on player driven effects, on choices with meaning. When changes as fundamental as what gear (and how well) every merc can run become as mutable as whim then larger things like long term tactical planning, market trend analysis (or tend setting), out of the box innovation, et al become devalued. Why plan long term when everything can be changed within minutes? Why try to understand or care about the economics when tomorrow everyone may be running max gear of a totally different type? Why innovate when everyone else can clone everything you've done after a single match? You know what else respecs do? They kill the longevity of the game. CCP stated out of the gate (or before the gate even opened if you're counting closed beta) that they were building Dust to take around 7.5 years to max all skills (assuming there weren't new skills added along the way... ) add limitless respecs and what used to require mufti-millions of SP involving years of game play to earn will now be reduced to a matter of months as everyone who's earned to the SP for a single proto build is now proto in everything since they can swap at will. Put bluntly, unlimited respecs (yes even those you have to P2W for) sell the future of the game to appease a lack of patience or dedication among some players... and frankly players who aren't interested in being here for the long haul aren't going to stick around either way so shortening the lifespan of the game to hold on to their attention for a few weeks (or possibly months) more is not only poor game development but bad business as well. 0.02 ISK Cross ps ~ For those who want to talk about the EVE remap remember the following. Being able to focus your future SP gain =/= altering your previously assigned SP. EDIT: Also this idea has been brought up and shot down several times already, one recent example and my first post from it Cross Atu wrote: #20 Posted: 2013.01.21 19:44 \| Respec in a game about choices and consequences is simply a poor mechanic. Making it AUR only is even worse as that pushes the P2W side of things. If this option is included choices cease to have a real implication you simply alter them as you desire. Want to solo for a day? Sure respec into it, want to go Heavy for awhile yup why not? Feel like using up all that salvage? Sure let's just respect into each specialized area to use the proto salvage until it runs out then swap to the next one. Nothing like that free proto ride. And when you run out of the pure proto from salvage? Sure just respec into support/core skills and run free fits until you have more free proto salvage. Adding this option would ruin the player market as well as increase the "flavor of the month" build/exploits. Furthermore there needs to be a certain degree of parity between both games in New Eden, and adding respec in fails to meet this bar. -1 to respec 0.02 ISK Cross and a bonus Reimus Klinsman wrote: Respec is an awful idea and will result in a loss of money. If people could respec, it'd take just a few months to max out the SP you need for a build, then when you want to switch builds you just respec and you're set. The lifetime of the game would be shortened from several years to a few months. It will cheapen the game. Learn to live with your mistakes. It won't be pay to win for me. It would simply be a SP reset. Define "win". I see winning as helping my corp with the role they need, even if I don't make the top of the leaderboard.
Chinduko KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 150	Posted - 2013.05.31 16:42:00 - [4] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: @chin You don't care, do you? Cross has gone through great lengths in posting that well-thought-out statement and yet you just dismiss it. All because you are just too impatient to train for everything for the next seven to ten years. You don't belong here if you think respecs (paid or otherwise) are important for you. Is this a joke or not? Of course I'm not waiting for 7-10 years to try everything. Dust won't last that long. Why wouldn't a person belong in Dust if they are so intrigued with the Dust gear that they'd want to try everything? That seems like a person that does belong. FYI, plenty of people have come across with excellent well thought posts on boths sides and I've read them all and am still convinced that I want respecs. I'm not afraid of players "paying to win" which I disagree will even happen. Players that are winning now will continue to win with or without respecs, regardless of your or any other person's fear. I will never tell a person they cannot respec into a new role simply because you're afraid of something you don't even know will happen. If respecs are enough to break the game, then it was already broken in the first place, in which case it won't matter.
Chinduko KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 150	Posted - 2013.05.31 17:08:00 - [5] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Chinduko wrote: Define "win". I see winning as helping my corp with the role they need, even if I don't make the top of the leaderboard. I also see see a respect as a way to try completely different specializations. That's not paying to win. That's paying to try something different. "Win" in this case is match victory, this becomes more true the as you move into FW and especially PC. "Win" also contains aspects of "preform better than would otherwise be possible" as I've yet to see any P2W situation where the player literally just inputs money and is given only a victory screen or a stat update to show victory. P2W rather is granting imbalanced advantages which lead to victory and doing so on the basis of a currency external to the game world. Additionally there are already two ways in game to try something new, either Make an Alt Earn the SP and test it out Trying something new is great, being able to try actual battlefield fits and tactics within non-simulated matches at whim without lasting consequence (aside from gaining personal advantage) is not great it's pay to win. from the list. I disagree with your notion of "pay to win" because players will respec for different reasons. I will respec to try new things which is not "pay to win" it's pay to have fun by trying different things. As for "perform better than would otherwise be possible" if an option is in the game such as a nice weapon or suit, then it is already beyond being impossible, therefore, respec or not, anyone can use it. You're idea of winning is winning PC and FW mainly. I'm assuming you're referring to weapons such as the TAC AR giving an advantage over other weapons in to help the winning. More so, for most players to use the TAC, they wouldn't have had to respec as they would have likely already have SP in ARs to use it already. But OP weapons or suits of any kind are not the players' fault. That was CCP's fault, and I don't want to have to pay the price of no respecs because CCP is incompetent in balancing weapons. If anything is OP, it's CCP's fault for doing so. Furthermore, long time beta players already know what the most powerful loadouts are so it's not likely they'd have to respec since they're already winning. If any presumptions about P2W were actually correct, it would more likely be to help those players not using the loadouts the long time players already know work. If anything, it would be "Pay to compete" but that's presumptuous as well.
Chinduko KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 150	Posted - 2013.05.31 18:03:00 - [6] - Quote
Chinduko KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 151	Posted - 2013.05.31 22:05:00 - [7] - Quote The AR has been and is the most powerful weapon, and especially after the Uprising with weapon nerfs to weapons that were actually able to compete with the AR such as the laser, mass driver, and HMG. Most people will notice that the AR is and was the most commonly used Weapon, now more than ever since it's competition was nerfed. The medium suits with high shields or overly high dmg mods which are also well known were the powerhouse of earlier builds but more so in Uprising due to the increased high and low power slots. This is no secret to the experienced Dust players. The medium suits have more than enough high and low power slots for this. This is no secret. This is your winning build. If you haven't noticed that, then pay closer attention to PC and informed or skilled players. New and uninformed players are not likely to know this information and that make them more likely to waste SP in underpowered loadouts which will decrease their satisfaction with Dust. If you're afraid of "pay to win" then with non aurum or ISK respecs, there speculation about respecs causing "pay to win" are ended. Now everyone has the same opportunity to use anything they please which is fine with me. I see no problems that a respec creates for the game when everyone is allowed to use them. The problems you speculate a respec will cause, I disagree that they are problems. They are speculation. If the low playerbase that Dust has is not evidence enough for showing it likely will not make it 10 years, you are blind. Attrition will set in and players will gradually lose interest. This happens to every FPS on the market, except Dust already has the player base of a game past its prime. There is only one factor I am concerned with and it is the only factor that may actually play out. It is "pay to win" This effects every player but it is still only speculation that it will actually occur. But, take away the charge and no more "pay to win" I would have wanted to charge aurum simply to keep CCP with enough money to keep updating the game. Now we are all in the same position. You can either respec or not. It's your choice and noone else's. If imbalanced weapons are not an issue because they will be fixed then I'm sure you won't mind others having respecs to play different roles since those imbalances will be balanced. The game will always be saturated with the suit sand weapons that are OP, you cannot stop that with or without a respec. This is why the "flavor of the month" or "pay to win" concepts are of no concern to me. The way for CCP to even hope to build the player base by bringing in new players it to remove the proto pub stomping and find a way to balance the game for new and experienced players. New players are not likely to play if they cannot compete. I further would expect that many experienced players would also enjoy non proto pub stomping games. CCP will not likely solve this as it undermines their entire SP system. The game is innovative but seems designed to fail. Unfortunately, I believe all we'll have left in two to three years are merely a handful of large corporations and non corporate players. It may end up like MAG but with a shorter life. MAG started out with perhaps 20 to 30 thousand players and is now down to mere hundreds. I don't know that Dust ever reached much above 10 thousand players and it was just released.
Chinduko KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 152	Posted - 2013.05.31 22:10:00 - [8] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Chinduko wrote: Is this a joke or not? Of course I'm not waiting for 7-10 years to try everything. Dust won't last that long. I stopped reading your post right here. You definitely don't belong here. I suggest you leave Dust. Eventually those remaining in Dust will leave. Whether you read my post or not is of no effect to that. If you think a game with an average of 6000 players and a max so far around only 10,000 players at release will last a decade, damn, you are extremely optimistic.