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Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
57
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Posted - 2013.05.29 23:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Blaster rifles (the current ARs) fire heated plasma. Now, how come the rifle doesn't overheat if you fire too many rounds?
I suggest that every weapon gets a unique heat cost. Why do small blaster turrets overheat while ARs don't? It would at least make more sense if they have higher DPS, but they don't.
CCP can even expand upon this and make higher meta weapons have reduced heat costs than their counterparts.
Some weapons will take a long time to overheat (such as standard projectile weapons) while others will overheat quickly (such as laser weapons). Though even this won't be true within classes. An HMG might overheat faster than an SMG, for example.
I find this to be an alternative solution to fixing the TAR problem by giving them more overheat than a regular AR. This will also add realism to the game because weapons heat up in real life. |
Treablo James Howard
WarRavens
2
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Posted - 2013.05.29 23:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Blaster rifles (the current ARs) fire heated plasma. Now, how come the rifle doesn't overheat if you fire too many rounds?
I suggest that every weapon gets a unique heat cost. Why do small blaster turrets overheat while ARs don't? It would at least make more sense if they have higher DPS, but they don't.
CCP can even expand upon this and make higher meta weapons have reduced heat costs than their counterparts.
Some weapons will take a long time to overheat (such as standard projectile weapons) while others will overheat quickly (such as laser weapons). Though even this won't be true within classes. An HMG might overheat faster than an SMG, for example.
I find this to be an alternative solution to fixing the TAR problem by giving them more overheat than a regular AR. This will also add realism to the game because weapons heat up in real life.
I believe the TAR has more damage due to its semi auto/more "precise" shots. |
ladwar
Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn
522
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Posted - 2013.05.29 23:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Treablo James Howard wrote:Harpyja wrote:Blaster rifles (the current ARs) fire heated plasma. Now, how come the rifle doesn't overheat if you fire too many rounds?
I suggest that every weapon gets a unique heat cost. Why do small blaster turrets overheat while ARs don't? It would at least make more sense if they have higher DPS, but they don't.
CCP can even expand upon this and make higher meta weapons have reduced heat costs than their counterparts.
Some weapons will take a long time to overheat (such as standard projectile weapons) while others will overheat quickly (such as laser weapons). Though even this won't be true within classes. An HMG might overheat faster than an SMG, for example.
I find this to be an alternative solution to fixing the TAR problem by giving them more overheat than a regular AR. This will also add realism to the game because weapons heat up in real life. I believe the TAR has more damage due to its full auto/more "precise" shots. fixed for realism. |
Starne
Planetary Response Organization
11
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Posted - 2013.05.30 03:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
had a similer thought bumb^ |
Starne
Planetary Response Organization
12
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Posted - 2013.05.30 17:06:00 -
[5] - Quote
bump^ |
TcuBe3
THE STAR BORN Dark Taboo
9
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Posted - 2013.05.30 17:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
1.ARs are gas operated air cooled, they don't overheat because of the heat dissipation with the design of the weapon.
2. Lasers and scramblers are energy weapons with little heat dissipation.
3. HMGs overheat in the game just as they do in real life. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say many of you haven't fired a real HMG. After a sustained period of firing you have to change barrels to prevent the barrel from overheating.
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Wojciak
Soldiers Of One Network Orion Empire
29
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Posted - 2013.05.30 17:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
TcuBe3 wrote:1.ARs are gas operated air cooled, they don't overheat because of the heat dissipation with the design of the weapon.
2. Lasers and scramblers are energy weapons with little heat dissipation.
3. HMGs overheat in the game just as they do in real life. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say many of you haven't fired a real HMG. After a sustained period of firing you have to change barrels to prevent the barrel from overheating.
LMGs and some assault rifles have interchangeable barrels, it is all about the amount or lead they are spewing. Pump 200 rounds through a gun in less than a minute can destroy a gun.
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Iskandar Zul Karnain
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
589
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Posted - 2013.05.30 17:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
Overheat on everything? Nope.
Certain weapons really don't need it. Having only some weapons overheat makes for more interesting and dynamic weapons. It also allows more variation in balancing. |
Daedric Lothar
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
537
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Posted - 2013.05.30 17:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
If you go to a shooting range and fire off an AR and it overheats.. Then you got a crappy AR and should sue them. I've fired off ALOT of rounds at a rifle range and my gun never overheated.
I think any special Lazer/Energy gun should have a chance to overheat.. However... they should be freaking awesome to make you actually want to use them. Right now the TAC AR is exploitable and it will be fixed. Lazer rifles suck and they will be fixed.
I am actually having a lot of fun with the Scram rifle though. |
Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
59
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Posted - 2013.05.30 17:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
Many of you are using real life ARs to back your arguments. The ARs in DUST shoot heated plasma, something entirely different from modern day bullets. No matter what cooling system you have, that stuff should heat up your barrel. This gives room for the devs to make higher meta weapons have better cooling systems that reduce the amount of heat generated.
When the Minmatar rifles come out, then you can compare those to modern day weapons. They will have close to no heat build up with higher meta possibly providing no heat build up at all.
Hybrids should have heat build up, though not as much as energy weapons, considering the fact that they shoot heated plasma (for railguns, they shoot the canister of suspended plasma instead, but heat is still produced from all the energy involved in firing these canisters) |
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EXASTRA INVICTAS
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
42
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Posted - 2013.05.30 17:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Blaster rifles (the current ARs) fire heated plasma. Now, how come the rifle doesn't overheat if you fire too many rounds? Because we Gallente built it, not the space Catholic Amarrians. Form and function, baby!
In all seriousness though, no. Not all weapons need to have overheating characteristics. |
Daedric Lothar
Onslaught Inc RISE of LEGION
537
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Posted - 2013.05.30 17:42:00 -
[12] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Many of you are using real life ARs to back your arguments. The ARs in DUST shoot heated plasma, something entirely different from modern day bullets. No matter what cooling system you have, that stuff should heat up your barrel. This gives room for the devs to make higher meta weapons have better cooling systems that reduce the amount of heat generated.
When the Minmatar rifles come out, then you can compare those to modern day weapons. They will have close to no heat build up with higher meta possibly providing no heat build up at all.
Hybrids should have heat build up, though not as much as energy weapons, considering the fact that they shoot heated plasma (for railguns, they shoot the canister of suspended plasma instead, but heat is still produced from all the energy involved in firing these canisters)
Good point. I forgot about that
"It is a magazine-fed, short-to-mid range weapon offering fully automatic fire. Charged plasma munitions are pumped into a cyclotron that converts the plasma into a highly lethal bolt before it is expelled from the chamber. Upon impact with the target, the magnetic field surrounding the bolt collapses, venting superheated plasma onto the contact point. "
However... Still...
No please
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EXASTRA INVICTAS
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
42
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Posted - 2013.05.30 18:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
Quote:Heat consists of random vibrations in a material. If a magnetic field connects two objects, then it creates a mechanical coupling between the two objects. Such a coupling will couple vibrations, therefore heat will be conducted by the magnetic field.
In practice, the effect will be very small, but given enough time, heat will be conducted by the magnetic field. The same applies to suspension by a combination electric and magnetic field. Considering that the Gallente Plasma tech almost always involves "super cooled plasma" or plasma that is entirely contained by an electromagnetic field (in this case, a "bullet" of electromagnetism that is filled with plasma) I would be willing to say that AS FAR AS MY LIMITED KNOWLEDGE IS CONCERNED the length of time the actual heated plasma is in the gun is not long enough to melt the barrel or cause any overheating on the gun's part.
Lasers focus constant light energy on a crystal lens that is projected outward beyond the weapon. This constant and "uncontained"heat is what causes the laser to overheat under sustained use. |
TcuBe3
THE STAR BORN Dark Taboo
10
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Posted - 2013.05.30 21:21:00 -
[14] - Quote
This is now over my head I do not claim to know anything about these plasma projectiles. I feel it just makes sense that the races would produce a hand held battle Rifle that doesn't overheat after sustained firing. |
Ulysses Knapse
Bojo's School of the Trades
422
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Posted - 2013.05.30 21:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:An HMG might overheat faster than an SMG, for example. Horrible idea. Heavy Machine Guns are for sustained fire, Submachine Guns are not. |
Ulysses Knapse
Bojo's School of the Trades
422
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Posted - 2013.05.30 21:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
Also, I already made a thread on this. |
TcuBe3
THE STAR BORN Dark Taboo
10
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Posted - 2013.05.30 22:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
Congratulations? |
Ulysses Knapse
Bojo's School of the Trades
423
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Posted - 2013.05.30 22:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Duplicate threads are rather frowned upon on forums. The author should have used the search function. |
TcuBe3
THE STAR BORN Dark Taboo
10
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Posted - 2013.05.30 22:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:Duplicate threads are rather frowned upon on forums. The author should have used the search function.
Dude, really? You need to declare you posted this before? Give the dude a break... |
Ulysses Knapse
Bojo's School of the Trades
423
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Posted - 2013.05.30 22:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
TcuBe3 wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Duplicate threads are rather frowned upon on forums. The author should have used the search function. Dude, really? You need to declare you posted this before? Give the dude a break... Welcome to the internet, where things work differently than real life.
Adapt or leave. |
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TcuBe3
THE STAR BORN Dark Taboo
10
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Posted - 2013.05.30 22:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
Ulysses Knapse wrote:TcuBe3 wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:Duplicate threads are rather frowned upon on forums. The author should have used the search function. Dude, really? You need to declare you posted this before? Give the dude a break... Welcome to the internet, where things work differently than real life. Adapt or leave.
The same could be said to you... |
Ulysses Knapse
Bojo's School of the Trades
423
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Posted - 2013.05.31 01:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
TcuBe3 wrote:Ulysses Knapse wrote:TcuBe3 wrote:Dude, really? You need to declare you posted this before? Give the dude a break... Welcome to the internet, where things work differently than real life. Adapt or leave. The same could be said to you... I'm not offended because it isn't true. You see, some things that would be seen as douchey in real life are perfectly acceptable, and even expected, on forums. Duplicate threads, for example, are against the rules of most forums, and even when they aren't, it is generally accepted that they are unnecessary. Linking an earlier thread centered around the same topic is not rude, or cruel, or anything similar. |
Mobius Kaethis
Molon Labe. League of Infamy
375
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Posted - 2013.05.31 01:46:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sorry to burst your bubble Ulysses but on this forum, with hundreds of threads and only so much time in a day, duplicate threads will happen.
The intention of the "no duplicate threads" rule was to keep people from spamming the forums with identical threads just to promote their own idea.
This was clearly not the authors intent. He thought of an idea and decided to share it with the community.
While you are correct, he should have used the search function prior to starting the thread, there is no reason to derail this coversation just because you started it first. That kind of petty "me first" attitude does nothing to further/argue against an idea.
On a more on topic note I would actually like to see some form of over heating added to the AR's and think that 3/4 that of the scrambler rifle would be a great starting point. in the case of a standard AR this would let you fire through two clips in quick succcession without overheating. |
TcuBe3
THE STAR BORN Dark Taboo
13
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Posted - 2013.05.31 16:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Yeah I do agree to level the playing field assault rifles will have to be limited by overheating. 2 full magazines would be adequate, question is how much of a cool down period would be appropriate? |
Yisuki
CHACALES
8
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Posted - 2013.05.31 18:11:00 -
[25] - Quote
Harpyja wrote:Many of you are using real life ARs to back your arguments. The ARs in DUST shoot heated plasma, something entirely different from modern day bullets. No matter what cooling system you have, that stuff should heat up your barrel. This gives room for the devs to make higher meta weapons have better cooling systems that reduce the amount of heat generated.
When the Minmatar rifles come out, then you can compare those to modern day weapons. They will have close to no heat build up with higher meta possibly providing no heat build up at all.
Hybrids should have heat build up, though not as much as energy weapons, considering the fact that they shoot heated plasma (for railguns, they shoot the canister of suspended plasma instead, but heat is still produced from all the energy involved in firing these canisters)
I don't know if anyone else has seen this, but ARs do overheat in the game, watch any video (or play the game) with any AR and you can see the rifle turning red when you shoot. They just need to implement the overheat penalty to the gun.
Edit:
Added video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJbM-NO3XoU |
Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
416
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Posted - 2013.05.31 18:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
I wouldn't knock a heat build-up mechanic for the ARs.
That WOULD address concerns for the TAR, and practically EVERY weapon. Even two-clip tangos would disappear. Hybrid weapons overheat too. (Blaster turrets, rail gun turrets), why would/should their smaller counterparts be any different?
Then I think about all the new players that come to Dust, that start wondering wtf their ARs are overheating and exploding in their faces. Then they leave Dust saying, "all the weapons in Dust suck. everything overheats and explodes in your face."
So while it is a fair and fine remedy to a majority of our weapon balance problems... you run into the problem of making the learning curve for new players that much more steeper. |
Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
64
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 18:32:00 -
[27] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:I wouldn't knock a heat build-up mechanic for the ARs.
That WOULD address concerns for the TAR, and practically EVERY weapon. Even two-clip tangos would disappear. Hybrid weapons overheat too. (Blaster turrets, rail gun turrets), why would/should their smaller counterparts be any different?
Then I think about all the new players that come to Dust, that start wondering wtf their ARs are overheating and exploding in their faces. Then they leave Dust saying, "all the weapons in Dust suck. everything overheats and explodes in your face."
So while it is a fair and fine remedy to a majority of our weapon balance problems... you run into the problem of making the learning curve for new players that much more steeper. I understand your concern. Basic ARs won't have a high heat cost to start off with, but higher meta ARs will make a significant heat cost reduction. I think a good starting point is being able to fire one and a half clips/mags one after the other on the basic AR without overheating.
And yes, this system is designed to help balance weapons effectively as well by introducing more heat cost to burst and tactical rifles to compensate for higher damage outputs (correct me if wrong on the burst variants), but is not fully limited to just a few weapons. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
210
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Posted - 2013.05.31 18:39:00 -
[28] - Quote
I confess to not having read the thread, but one thing I'd like to see put in, and would seem more appropriate here, would be the introduction of CoF bloom (PlanetSide1 style).
This should be applied to all weapons for some factors (crouch/stand, movement speed, jumping), but only to hybrid/projectile weapons (haven't used a flaylock, so can't say if it fits there; no point or logical justification for most "normal size" missile weapons).
The reasoning is this: there really wouldn't be any noticeable recoil on projected energy weapons (lasers), which do have heat dissipation issues (these should be the only infantry weapons with overeheating.) On the rest, though, there is, whether it's a blaster or artillery; with these the limiting factor isn't overheating preventing firing, but the recoil making it harder to keep centered on target when engaging in sustained fire (this is also the big, and only, fix needed for the TAR: out it in the sniper progression where it belongs and give it decent per-shot recoil).
A combination of CoF bloom and actual recoil on non-laser weapons would result in far more realistic, immersive, and skillful gameplay.
Also need to point out that this is for infantry only; CoF bloom AND overheating on turrets and vehicles seems just fine to me (doing vehicles "right" by making them carry ammo would require a TON of UI and systems work to make them have cargo and provide an interface like in planetside to handle vehicle inventory; I'd love to see more planetside1-like inventory management on the suits and vehicles, but this would be a massive overhaul at this stage of development with questionable ROI). |
Encharrion
L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION
107
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Posted - 2013.05.31 19:27:00 -
[29] - Quote
I don't support this idea. The mechanic of overheating is generally used (in most games) to balance out the benefit of that same weapon not having a magazine that needs reloading. Both overheating and reloading serve very similar functions, they both prevent sustained fire without pause, and enforce specific amounts of downtime before one can fire again, although they accomplish this in somewhat different ways. Overheating involves a variable downtime depending on the amount of time spent firing, while reloading is simply a constant downtime to reset the amount of sustained fire allowed to its max. Overheating and reloading create two slightly different dynamics that, while they encourage somewhat different gameplay, the two of them together become redundant (as can be evidenced by the laser rifle in the previous builds). There are exceptions to this, but those are special circumstances (for example the HMG, although it both overheats and reloads, it also has exceptionally large magazines with long reload times, becoming a bit more of a resource management mechanic, while the overheat mechanic balances out the way it gets more accurate the longer you fire, forcing you to stop for just a moment to continue firing, and returning its accuracy to its starting point. That said I think the magazine should be larger and the reload time longer).
TL;DR: Overheating and reloading on the same weapon is redundant as they usually perform the same general purpose. |
SickJ
sephiroth clones General Tso's Alliance
71
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Posted - 2013.05.31 19:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
CCP should make it so that ARs overheat slowly - slowly enough that you can pour out 2 or more mags before you need to worry. Why? Because it'd be cool to hear someone describe an intense fight by saying 'I shot till my AR overheated'. |
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Harpyja
DUST University Ivy League
153
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Posted - 2013.07.02 15:03:00 -
[31] - Quote
Bump |
Artificer Ghost
Bojo's School of the Trades
161
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Posted - 2013.07.04 02:47:00 -
[32] - Quote
Just in response to the "Why do ARs not overheat, but Blasters do".
Assault Rifles, Plasma Cannons, Shotguns, etc. all have a special type of.... Muzzle? Or barrel? Idk, I'm not a gun 'enthusiast'. The part where the rounds come out of. It's kind of odd looking. Anyways, you'll notice the Blaster Installations do NOT have that type of thing. I'd imagine it's to keep it from overheating. |
SponkSponkSponk
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
46
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Posted - 2013.07.04 05:54:00 -
[33] - Quote
I don't mind AR overheating - I think it would be fine to have a rate-limiter kick in after you've just blown through 80% of your clip in one burst, but if you heat manage it by burst firing you should be able to get through a full clip.
Having said that, I don't think adding overheat will solve the OP-ness of assault rifles. |
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