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Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
163
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Posted - 2013.05.27 21:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
I can't be alone on this one. Anyone else noticing the trend in FW (mercenary) fights? Enemy team gets a strike, and where is it placed? Not on the enemy site they're trying to advance on. Not on the reinforcements coming to assault their site. No, what happens is they wait until they're being overrun, then drop it on their own heads.
Now one would think this would just wipe the slate clean, and with Friendly Fire enabled, it would, and there'd be no problem: everyone in the AoE would be nuked and the world moves on. But thanks to friendly fire being DISABLED on everything except Planetary Conquest what this amounts to is the ability to become instantly safe while slaughtering everything threatening you.
I don't think I'm being too bold in saying that you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone willing to say that it's reasonable to allow an orbital strike to be placed on your own troops and have it ONLY kill the enemies in the AoE.
Now me? I say Friendly Fire should be on in everything except high-sec instant-action matches (I would even go so far as to say only in the Academy section for newbies). But unlike a lot of people here, I'm willing to compromise, especially if it fixes a serious issue. At a bare minimum, enable Friendly Fire on Orbital Strikes IN ALL GAME MODES. No exceptions.
This single move would bring orbital strikes to what they're supposed to be: softening up an entrenched target, or weakening an approaching target. Right now it's just a "we win" button when you're losing control of a point in a CQC furball. |
Maken Tosch
DUST University Ivy League
2432
|
Posted - 2013.05.27 21:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
I agree. Didn't CCP stated earlier that low-sec systems will see friendly fire get turned on? CCP, make it happen. |
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows
232
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Posted - 2013.05.27 21:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
100% FF from all damage sources in all gamemodes is the only way to go.
Make it so CCP!! |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
164
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Posted - 2013.05.27 21:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:100% FF from all damage sources in all gamemodes is the only way to go.
Make it so CCP!! Like I said, I agree on that one, but let's focus on the IMMEDIATE fix that IS seriously needed. I had one match last night where strikes were dropping every few seconds, because we were doing such a good job of pressing the assault, and they'd just nuke themselves (which only takes us out), rinse and repeat. |
low genius
The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance
101
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Posted - 2013.05.27 22:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
sounds to me like you want to get in on some planetary conquest action. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
167
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Posted - 2013.05.27 22:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
low genius wrote:sounds to me like you want to get in on some planetary conquest action. I would, but i don't have the time to devote to it and don't want to muddy my corp history.
None of that is relevant to something being clearly abused, however. An orbital strike is supposed to be a tactical tool, not an "i win" button when you've already been overrun and actively engaging in close quarters; you don't laumch mortars on your own troops for the same reason. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax. CRONOS.
1647
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Posted - 2013.05.27 23:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Even if you don't have friendly fire from guns, it should be active in all modes for orbitals.
Think about it. Not only are you only killing friendlies, but all those kills are making you WP that starts to add up to your next strike. It's just ********. |
Whackjack
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.05.28 00:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Even if you don't have friendly fire from guns, it should be active in all modes for orbitals.
Think about it. Not only are you only killing friendlies, but all those kills are making you WP that starts to add up to your next strike. It's just ********. All OB kills go towards the next strike anyways, even if FF was on.
I, for one, am glad that the game modes put on you a team of randoms (even if rolling with a squad of corpies) doesn't allow for said randoms to drop orbitals or precisions on me. I already have to be wary of the enemy earning an OB, now I gotta hope that my own team doesn't drop one of me if I (or my squad) stick myself/ourselves in the thick of the fighting?
Geirskoegul wrote:None of that is relevant to something being clearly abused, however. An orbital strike is supposed to be a tactical tool, not an "i win" button when you've already been overrun and actively engaging in close quarters; you don't laumch mortars on your own troops for the same reason. No, you don't drop mortars on your own troops, but in FW matches the blues are "your own troops" in only by the thinnest definition. If you're not in their corp or squad, the SL with the orbital is likely to not give two ***** about your clone and what it might be wearing/using if the OB's going to net him some nice kills.
When was the last time you honestly gave a **** about the blueberry next to you? |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
169
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Posted - 2013.05.28 00:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Whackjack wrote:Geirskoegul wrote:None of that is relevant to something being clearly abused, however. An orbital strike is supposed to be a tactical tool, not an "i win" button when you've already been overrun and actively engaging in close quarters; you don't laumch mortars on your own troops for the same reason. No, you don't drop mortars on your own troops, but in FW matches the blues are "your own troops" in only by the thinnest definition. If you're not in their corp or squad, the SL with the orbital is likely to not give two ***** about your clone and what it might be wearing/using if the OB's going to net him some nice kills. When was the last time you honestly gave a **** about the blueberry next to you? Since I care about winning more than my KDR, a lot, actually, and I often play support for that reason; you'd be amazed what you can do with a repair gun, nanite injector, and some drop uplinks to keep your team going, on your squad or not.
As to the SC not caring about the other blueberries and nuking them anyway to get you too, I'm ok with that. Why am I ok with that? Because at least it's clearing them out too: clean slate. Maybe they have some guys nearby to reinforce; maybe we do too. But that's the whole point. As it stands now, they can OS and we all die and they're all still there, thus automatically winning the engagement; if FF is on, everyone there dies, and so BOTH sides need to try to get back there.
It's the difference between an i-win button and a reset button. And that's a very important, and significant difference.
PS Worth noting that, if friendlies killed by an OS currently grant points, that's very obviously something that should (and likely will) be declared a bug and corrected. No one could support an argument for that being intended behavior. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
173
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Posted - 2013.05.28 14:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Bump |
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Kaathe
DUST University Ivy League
63
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Posted - 2013.05.28 16:29:00 -
[11] - Quote
Turn it on already. It's bad enough that I have to guess which OB is which. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
177
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Posted - 2013.05.28 16:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
Disappointed that i didn't think to link it earlier, but this belongs here. Note the friendly fire. |
Rale Tolemy
Valor Tactical Operations
0
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Posted - 2013.05.29 07:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
The problem in this matter is trolls and douche bags that like to play games just to kills their own team. if you ever played MGO it sucked because they actually had a symbol you could unlock for TK-ing. it would just open up to many possibilities for all the trolls unfortunately. :/
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Jathniel
G I A N T EoN.
384
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 08:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
Well, you'd have to give a fck about random blueberries in a pub match to think it's a problem dropping an orbital on them. Which I don't...
...and I'm sure no other vet playing this game does.
If FF were on in pub matches, I would drop it on a group of blues for the lolz, the WP, and the money, if we were winning, and there was no where else to drop it.
Griefing at its finest. CCP realizes that having such a pure, sanguine, unfettered system, could potentially break the game for a lot of people, through sheer grief.
Sure, EVE is tough, but at least there are plenty of places to hide. Not so with Dust.
Newberries have it bad enough as it is, without having to worry about being eaten alive by their friendlies as well. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
180
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 09:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
Jathniel wrote:Well, you'd have to give a fck about random blueberries in a pub match to think it's a problem dropping an orbital on them. Which I don't...
...and I'm sure no other vet playing this game does.
If FF were on in pub matches, I would drop it on a group of blues for the lolz, the WP, and the money, if we were winning, and there was no where else to drop it.
Griefing at its finest. CCP realizes that having such a pure, sanguine, unfettered system, could potentially break the game for a lot of people, through sheer grief.
Sure, EVE is tough, but at least there are plenty of places to hide. Not so with Dust.
Newberries have it bad enough as it is, without having to worry about being eaten alive by their friendlies as well. What you've pointed out is another problem with the current system: that strikes give points for friendly kills.
If they kill their own while the match is undecided, that's fine, because it clears the field, instead of being the broken i-win button that it currently is.
If people grief, that's fine too; it happens in every game. The solution? Penalties for teamkilling. While I don't advocate a planetside-style grief point system, since they goes against the spirit of this universe, -75 WP for a TK would do nicely to encourage you to make sure you kill more of the enemy than you do friendlies. |
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc.
299
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 20:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
Geirskoegul wrote:Jathniel wrote:Well, you'd have to give a fck about random blueberries in a pub match to think it's a problem dropping an orbital on them. Which I don't...
...and I'm sure no other vet playing this game does.
If FF were on in pub matches, I would drop it on a group of blues for the lolz, the WP, and the money, if we were winning, and there was no where else to drop it.
Griefing at its finest. CCP realizes that having such a pure, sanguine, unfettered system, could potentially break the game for a lot of people, through sheer grief.
Sure, EVE is tough, but at least there are plenty of places to hide. Not so with Dust.
Newberries have it bad enough as it is, without having to worry about being eaten alive by their friendlies as well. What you've pointed out is another problem with the current system: that strikes give points for friendly kills. If they kill their own while the match is undecided, that's fine, because it clears the field, instead of being the broken i-win button that it currently is. If people grief, that's fine too; it happens in every game. The solution? Penalties for teamkilling. While I don't advocate a planetside-style grief point system, since they goes against the spirit of this universe, -75 WP for a TK would do nicely to encourage you to make sure you kill more of the enemy than you do friendlies.
We need 100% FF from all damage sources in all modes with the bolded portion of the above message as the incentive to NOT TK.
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Knarf Black
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
878
|
Posted - 2013.06.05 20:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
We definitely need more FF enabled modes. Otherwise the corps currently doing PC will end up with another big advantage over newcomers. Practice. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
234
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 15:44:00 -
[18] - Quote
*goes bump in the night* |
Pseudonym0
Free Guard of Arrakis
2
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Posted - 2013.06.06 17:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
I can make a couple suggestions on the inherent problems with FF in pub matches, and they match pretty well with the overall game concept.
Let's consider that we're all supposed to be mercenaries, in pubs we're hired by NPC corporations to do their dirty work. If you were a corp, would you hire or continue to deploy from your (presumably very expensive) MCC someone who is actually acting against your interests? No. So, since we're in it's universe, lets take a page from EVE.
You can institute a few things.
A) If you reach an arbitrary negative score, say -100, by teamkills, meaning you've done more harm than good, you don't get to respawn.
B)Players get a EVE-style security status, or say a merc rating, and team killing lowers it. This stat is visible to others in the War Barge. If it gets too low, you get a flashing red icon beside your name in chat and in game, just like in EVE. This has several effects, one is your ability to be hired by corps for battles, eventually resulting in your inablility to join anything but your own player corp's battles. If you're in a NPC corp, too bad, no one will touch you, feel free to remake your toon. The other effect is that, much like EVE, past a certain negative threshold anyone anywhere including teammates, can put a bullet in your head and suffer no negative repercussions. And, of course, no one but a new person who doesn't know what it means will squad with someone who's flashing red.
C)Corporate bounties, you mess an NPC corps battle up by going turncoat, you get a bounty on your head from that corp, collectable by anyone enemy or friendly, that is visible. This one's a little extreme, but honestly, if a teammate managed to get 10 mill in bounty on his head by teamkilling, and it only costs you, say 75 WP and .1 off your aforementioned security status to take him out, would you think about it? Of course not early in the battle, you don't want your own score dropping too low.....it'd probably be later, when you have some WP built up and it's in full swing. Their backs turned towards the enemy, they're an easy target, and the TK will probably just get lost in the ticker, so who's to know?
Sure, New Eden is vicious, but so are the corps, and the mercs :).
Would take a bit to institute, definitely not a quick fix, but I'm thinking it would work pretty well. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
234
|
Posted - 2013.06.06 20:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
Pseudonym0 wrote:I can make a couple suggestions on the inherent problems with FF in pub matches, and they match pretty well with the overall game concept.
Let's consider that we're all supposed to be mercenaries, in pubs we're hired by NPC corporations to do their dirty work. If you were a corp, would you hire or continue to deploy from your (presumably very expensive) MCC someone who is actually acting against your interests? No. So, since we're in it's universe, lets take a page from EVE.
You can institute a few things.
A) If you reach an arbitrary negative score, say -100, by teamkills, meaning you've done more harm than good, you don't get to respawn.
B)Players get a EVE-style security status, or say a merc rating, and team killing lowers it. This stat is visible to others in the War Barge. If it gets too low, you get a flashing red icon beside your name in chat and in game, just like in EVE. This has several effects, one is your ability to be hired by corps for battles, eventually resulting in your inablility to join anything but your own player corp's battles. If you're in a NPC corp, too bad, no one will touch you, feel free to remake your toon. The other effect is that, much like EVE, past a certain negative threshold anyone anywhere including teammates, can put a bullet in your head and suffer no negative repercussions. And, of course, no one but a new person who doesn't know what it means will squad with someone who's flashing red.
C)Corporate bounties, you mess an NPC corps battle up by going turncoat, you get a bounty on your head from that corp, collectable by anyone enemy or friendly, that is visible. This one's a little extreme, but honestly, if a teammate managed to get 10 mill in bounty on his head by teamkilling, and it only costs you, say 75 WP and .1 off your aforementioned security status to take him out, would you think about it? Of course not early in the battle, you don't want your own score dropping too low.....it'd probably be later, when you have some WP built up and it's in full swing. Their backs turned towards the enemy, they're an easy target, and the TK will probably just get lost in the ticker, so who's to know?
Sure, New Eden is vicious, but so are the corps, and the mercs :).
Would take a bit to institute, definitely not a quick fix, but I'm thinking it would work pretty well. None of which addresses the actual issue (abuse of FF being disabled to make strikes an i-win button) or lends consequence to the decisions that matter (your proposal absolves the recruiting corp of any responsibility to have standards, by automstically locking out traitors; very undesirable.) |
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Thor McStrut
Reckoners
26
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Posted - 2013.06.06 21:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:Geirskoegul wrote:Jathniel wrote:Well, you'd have to give a fck about random blueberries in a pub match to think it's a problem dropping an orbital on them. Which I don't...
...and I'm sure no other vet playing this game does.
If FF were on in pub matches, I would drop it on a group of blues for the lolz, the WP, and the money, if we were winning, and there was no where else to drop it.
Griefing at its finest. CCP realizes that having such a pure, sanguine, unfettered system, could potentially break the game for a lot of people, through sheer grief.
Sure, EVE is tough, but at least there are plenty of places to hide. Not so with Dust.
Newberries have it bad enough as it is, without having to worry about being eaten alive by their friendlies as well. What you've pointed out is another problem with the current system: that strikes give points for friendly kills. If they kill their own while the match is undecided, that's fine, because it clears the field, instead of being the broken i-win button that it currently is. If people grief, that's fine too; it happens in every game. The solution? Penalties for teamkilling. While I don't advocate a planetside-style grief point system, since they goes against the spirit of this universe, -75 WP for a TK would do nicely to encourage you to make sure you kill more of the enemy than you do friendlies. We need 100% FF from all damage sources in all modes with the bolded portion of the above message as the incentive to NOT TK.
I'd even go so far as to say make TK a tracked stat and shown in the players info tab. I like the -75 WP though, worth a kill and assist. |
Geirskoegul
Soul-Strike
236
|
Posted - 2013.06.07 10:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
Thor McStrut wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:Geirskoegul wrote:Jathniel wrote:Well, you'd have to give a fck about random blueberries in a pub match to think it's a problem dropping an orbital on them. Which I don't...
...and I'm sure no other vet playing this game does.
If FF were on in pub matches, I would drop it on a group of blues for the lolz, the WP, and the money, if we were winning, and there was no where else to drop it.
Griefing at its finest. CCP realizes that having such a pure, sanguine, unfettered system, could potentially break the game for a lot of people, through sheer grief.
Sure, EVE is tough, but at least there are plenty of places to hide. Not so with Dust.
Newberries have it bad enough as it is, without having to worry about being eaten alive by their friendlies as well. What you've pointed out is another problem with the current system: that strikes give points for friendly kills. If they kill their own while the match is undecided, that's fine, because it clears the field, instead of being the broken i-win button that it currently is. If people grief, that's fine too; it happens in every game. The solution? Penalties for teamkilling. While I don't advocate a planetside-style grief point system, since they goes against the spirit of this universe, -75 WP for a TK would do nicely to encourage you to make sure you kill more of the enemy than you do friendlies. We need 100% FF from all damage sources in all modes with the bolded portion of the above message as the incentive to NOT TK. I'd even go so far as to say make TK a tracked stat and shown in the players info tab. I like the -75 WP though, worth a kill and assist. A tracked stat would be nice, though i'm mixed on it; sometimes the TK isn't yourfault, it's the idiot than ran in front of you as you pulled the trigger. |
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