DUST Search - ways to balance vehicles vs. AV

Godin Thekiller wrote:

Geirskoegul wrote:

Wojciak wrote:

Geirskoegul wrote:

Wojciak wrote:

Make it when you run over a person with any vehicle you take damage, say for LAVs you take 90% of their heath for damage for HAVs 30-10%.

Ever gotten in an accident with a car made of metal? They usually drive away, even if hitting another car. These are combat vehicles, built for this ****, a tank shouldn't take any damage at all for running somone over, it's a goddamn tank. Make the LAV take the same damage as any other minor environmental collision (maybe with some scaling based on target mass; if armor plates don't raise mass like they do in EVE, make them.)

I jump from a mcc and walk it off like it was nothing, i can have as much or more total health than a LAV. You are also talking nonsense because with the speeds that the LAVs are moving one crash would make driving one so much harder of not impossible, and just because they can drive away dose not mean that the driver would be alive to do so.

You jump from the MCC and activate an inertial dampener in your suit so you don't crater. Point negated.

You're not actually driving all that fast, less than 100KPH (about 50-60MPH). Point negated.

Vehicle is equipped with inertial dampeners, the passenger doesn't feel the collision. Point negated.

The fact of the matter is that there isn't an issue with road kill or AV in the game. Situational awareness and use of cover protect you in the closes areas. If you in the open, situational awareness is generally enough, but if not, it's your own fault for hoofing it.

Lastly, killing LAVs is so ridiculously easy if you pick up some AV, so if you're not willing to dodge or even pay attention for them, shoot them when you respawn.

I don't generally road rage (i'll run over any targets of opportunity on the way to where i'm going, but an lav is transport and a mobile turret to me, nothing more), but I do love taking out LAVs with my swarms. Why? Because it's so goddamn easy.

Quit complaining about the non-issue and adapt to the situation. Pay attention to your surroundings, and put the AV gear to work. If they'd allow swarms to be dumb-fired and just not have a lock-on when you do then you wouldn't even be as disadvantaged in terms of fighting back against non-vehicles.

You forgot one thing: There is no way in hell you can have as much eHP or even HP than either a LAV or LLV. point negated

Peace, Godin Twisted


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Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 159	Posted - 2013.05.27 12:37:00 - [1] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: REQUIRED: 1: Stop think that balancing through pub matches will make the game balanced on serious matches. That makes no sense. 2: Give the vehicle engineering skill 3-5% PG bonus instead of the it's only a reduction to the CPU, as it's only 25 CPU. 3: (this will help AV'ers too) Get rid of packed AV nades, make regular AV nades do 800 at Standard, 1000 at Advanced, and 1200 at Prototype. Also, get rid of their homing. Then, change their name to packed AV nades. 4: (cont. from #3) Make sleek do 600 at Standard, 800 at Advanced, and 1000 at Prototype. Make their homing speed faster and lock on farther, and their flight distance farther. Call them reglar AV nades. 5: Create these turret skills- Sharphooter- Increases optimal range. rapid Fire- Increases rate of fire (only for turrets without heat buildup). coolant systems- Reduces heat buildup of turrets (only fir turrets with heat buildup). Fitting efficiency- Decreases fitting requirements of turrets. These would go under the turret upgrades skill. 6: fix the glitch where at a certain distance, you can't see people, and anything that they shoot. 7: Make swarms glow a bright yellow again. 8: Give all vehicles a warning that they are being locked on. 9: Fix the turning angles of Swarms; Make them go straight to you, not to wherever you were, then go to you. SUGUESTIONS: 1: return the MLT LAV's back to their original HP. 2: Give only 50% of the buff that STD LAV's got. 3: Leave the SLAV's and the LLV's alone. 4: Raise the base resistance of all HAV's (in exception of MLT HAV's); HAV's get 15%, BOHAV's get 25%, Marauders get 30%. 5: Raise all speeds of vehicles, leave acceleration as is, but only when you have larger maps. 6: Instead of cooldowns, we get a capacitor (We were supposed to in the first place, and would be far better than the way now.). 7: Create More open maps. 8: Give they ability to shoot down swarms. Overall, your "requirements" section seems like excellent changes and very reasonable. That said, I don't like the idea of making the swarms glow (it's your job, in avoiding them, to do your best to be aware; it's bad enough we have grenade indicators on the HUD). I'd also be opposed to lock-on indicators on ground vehicles, if only because this wouldn't really help a LAV (if the AV user knows what he's doing, the LAV's dead either way), and tanks are already being MISused (they are NOT solo pwn-mobiles, but rather if you're in tight quarters are supposed to be supported by infantry; in an open field they're screwed anyway, a lock-on indicator would do no good for them), but for dropships I see no problem, as they're rather squishy to begin with, and flying them low and around obstacles (only way to lose a swarm, generally) is extremely skill-intensive, a tiny bit of warning wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing (and would just make sense; all modern combat aircraft have systems to give you bearing on incoming radar signals). As to your suggestions, I can't say I agree with much of any of them. As far as hit points go, everything seems fairly well-balanced, if you know how to fit your ****. Further, if we replace cooldowns for modules with traditional cycle times and capacitor use from EVE then you're effectively giving them a massive improvement in tanking ability. That said, I'm all in favour of replacing cooldowns with capacitor and cycles times, but it needs to be done very carefully, and it needs to be done in such a way that the end result on survivability of tanks is left largely unaffected; the end result should be no more than making capacitor management a (player) skill factor in how well you can keep it alive, vs simply popping a heal and then waiting out the cooldown. I don't really see an issue with vehicles' speeds as they are, and there are modules you can equip to improve speed. This is something that should be addressed via fitting choices, not adjustments to the base speeds. More large maps (not necessarily more open; we've got too many wannabe snipers wasting slots and not contributing usefully as it is) would be awesome, and I believe are very much planned (they'll need to be, given that we're eventually getting fighter-style aircraft, not just the current helicopter-style dropships). As for shooting down swarms, that would depend on implementation. It should take skill, timing, and the use of a fitting slot for the countermeasure equipment to do it (just like you need to fit smartbombs in EVE if you want to shoot down missiles; ok, yeah, there's defenders too, but everyone knows they don't actually work in a "real [eve] world" situation). As it stands now, the deciding factors with swarms are how good the shooter is in judging their behaviour and when to fire, and the target's skill in avoidance; that's a good thing. As a further note on swarms, I very much like that they travel forward a ways prior to tracking, as this makes them far more useful. Especially since we can't dumb-fire them (we need to be able to and have them not track at all), the ability to should them around a corner if positioned correctly is very important (especially against tanks). Take the real-world example of the JAVELIN, which flies towards and over the target, prior to flying straight down at it to exploit the weaker armour from above. Without some ability to fly a ways and then round a corner you make the only really viable AV weapon in close quarters the AV nades, and then you need to get right up on top of the tank. One last thing, as to "fitting efficiency," there are already skills in the game that reduce fitting requirements. I'd have to pull up the names, but I'm fairly certain there's both an infantry and vehicle equivalent to EVE's Weapon Upgrades and Advanced Weapon Upgrades, which reduce CPU and PG use respectively.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 159	Posted - 2013.05.27 13:09:00 - [2] - Quote Harpyja wrote: There is no skill that reduces turret fitting requirements, while dropsuit weapons do Easy enough to fix that one, at least.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 173	Posted - 2013.05.28 15:01:00 - [3] - Quote Wojciak wrote: Make it when you run over a person with any vehicle you take damage, say for LAVs you take 90% of their heath for damage for HAVs 30-10%. Ever gotten in an accident with a car made of metal? They usually drive away, even if hitting another car. These are combat vehicles, built for this ****, a tank shouldn't take any damage at all for running somone over, it's a goddamn tank. Make the LAV take the same damage as any other minor environmental collision (maybe with some scaling based on target mass; if armor plates don't raise mass like they do in EVE, make them.)
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 173	Posted - 2013.05.28 15:31:00 - [4] - Quote I really don't like the idea of active countermeasures. There's some merit in player-skill-based stuff, like trying to shoot them down with blasters, or like using smartbombs in EVE, and what should be the primary method: outmaneuvering them through the terrain. You have to remember that this isn't built like Battlefield, no matter how much like it, it plays. In battlefield, your health and durability doesn't change. Here, it does. Improving your tank (as in tanking, not the HAV specifically) is the primary method for this after avoidance. As it stands now, if you tank your HAV or DS well, it significantly increases the amount of incoming AV necessary to take it out. This isn't a problem, the counter is more AV, better AV (by skilling up and fitting it, just like he skilled up and fitted a better tank), or a combination of the two. Introducing active countermeasures would have a massively disproportional impact on this balance dynamic, as it would mean you would need orders of magnitude more people with weaker AV AND aignificantly more people with the better AV. The result doesn't seem desirable for the intended balance dynamic.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 173	Posted - 2013.05.28 15:48:00 - [5] - Quote Wojciak wrote: Geirskoegul wrote: Wojciak wrote: Make it when you run over a person with any vehicle you take damage, say for LAVs you take 90% of their heath for damage for HAVs 30-10%. Ever gotten in an accident with a car made of metal? They usually drive away, even if hitting another car. These are combat vehicles, built for this ****, a tank shouldn't take any damage at all for running somone over, it's a goddamn tank. Make the LAV take the same damage as any other minor environmental collision (maybe with some scaling based on target mass; if armor plates don't raise mass like they do in EVE, make them.) I jump from a mcc and walk it off like it was nothing, i can have as much or more total health than a LAV. You are also talking nonsense because with the speeds that the LAVs are moving one crash would make driving one so much harder of not impossible, and just because they can drive away dose not mean that the driver would be alive to do so. You jump from the MCC and activate an inertial dampener in your suit so you don't crater. Point negated. You're not actually driving all that fast, less than 100KPH (about 50-60MPH). Point negated. Vehicle is equipped with inertial dampeners, the passenger doesn't feel the collision. Point negated. The fact of the matter is that there isn't an issue with road kill or AV in the game. Situational awareness and use of cover protect you in the closes areas. If you in the open, situational awareness is generally enough, but if not, it's your own fault for hoofing it. Lastly, killing LAVs is so ridiculously easy if you pick up some AV, so if you're not willing to dodge or even pay attention for them, shoot them when you respawn. I don't generally road rage (i'll run over any targets of opportunity on the way to where i'm going, but an lav is transport and a mobile turret to me, nothing more), but I do love taking out LAVs with my swarms. Why? Because it's so goddamn easy. Quit complaining about the non-issue and adapt to the situation. Pay attention to your surroundings, and put the AV gear to work. If they'd allow swarms to be dumb-fired and just not have a lock-on when you do then you wouldn't even be as disadvantaged in terms of fighting back against non-vehicles.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 173	Posted - 2013.05.28 16:02:00 - [6] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Geirskoegul wrote: Wojciak wrote: Geirskoegul wrote: Wojciak wrote: Make it when you run over a person with any vehicle you take damage, say for LAVs you take 90% of their heath for damage for HAVs 30-10%. Ever gotten in an accident with a car made of metal? They usually drive away, even if hitting another car. These are combat vehicles, built for this ****, a tank shouldn't take any damage at all for running somone over, it's a goddamn tank. Make the LAV take the same damage as any other minor environmental collision (maybe with some scaling based on target mass; if armor plates don't raise mass like they do in EVE, make them.) I jump from a mcc and walk it off like it was nothing, i can have as much or more total health than a LAV. You are also talking nonsense because with the speeds that the LAVs are moving one crash would make driving one so much harder of not impossible, and just because they can drive away dose not mean that the driver would be alive to do so. You jump from the MCC and activate an inertial dampener in your suit so you don't crater. Point negated. You're not actually driving all that fast, less than 100KPH (about 50-60MPH). Point negated. Vehicle is equipped with inertial dampeners, the passenger doesn't feel the collision. Point negated. The fact of the matter is that there isn't an issue with road kill or AV in the game. Situational awareness and use of cover protect you in the closes areas. If you in the open, situational awareness is generally enough, but if not, it's your own fault for hoofing it. Lastly, killing LAVs is so ridiculously easy if you pick up some AV, so if you're not willing to dodge or even pay attention for them, shoot them when you respawn. I don't generally road rage (i'll run over any targets of opportunity on the way to where i'm going, but an lav is transport and a mobile turret to me, nothing more), but I do love taking out LAVs with my swarms. Why? Because it's so goddamn easy. Quit complaining about the non-issue and adapt to the situation. Pay attention to your surroundings, and put the AV gear to work. If they'd allow swarms to be dumb-fired and just not have a lock-on when you do then you wouldn't even be as disadvantaged in terms of fighting back against non-vehicles. You forgot one thing: There is no way in hell you can have as much eHP or even HP than either a LAV or LLV. point negated Peace, Godin Not really. That was simply a bad formula to use for figuring damage to the vehicle running over infantry; relative hitpoints between them is irrelevant, especially when it comes to shields; shields don't make you heavier or harder to "push", if anything happened there it'd send the infantry flying and the vehicle's shields barely flicker. Do you really think a tank is going to take damage from running over infantry, even with the power armour? Not likely lol As to the LAVs, they have significant armour and shields themselves, they can crash into a wall and not take crippling damage (nor should they, at the speeds they're moving and the tech involved). The fix is situational awareness and actually using your AV options, not effectively nerfing vehicles across the board. Just be glad it's not like the original planetside, now THAT had broken road kill mechanics; so much as bump someone while barely moving and they're dead.
Geirskoegul Soul-Strike 178	Posted - 2013.05.29 05:23:00 - [7] - Quote Rachoi wrote: Text Grant wrote: Everyone is looking to make LAV's immortal to the ground soldiers that don't have swarms or forge guns. AV grenades are built to do high damage to vehicles and only vehicles. Do not nerf a purpose built tool that is under powered at the moment anyway. A well built militia shield LAV can take multiple prototype packed grenades. damned straight, the AV is our only way to make any vehicle back off when you dont have acess to any other things like Swarms,works great for softening a tank before a forge gun lands a shot too. Right now LAVs are freebie Militiashit murder taxis, and are difficult to kill even with swarms, i expect STD and above LAVs to be tough to kill, but the didiculousness of the free print is... staggering Militia swarm launcher doesn't seem to be giving me any problems racking up MASSIVE points on all those murder taxis lol. Most times it only takes one shot, you just have to actually know how to use the thing and how it behaves so that all four missiles hit (not hard at all with a minimum of practice.) Even against higher-end variants, and fit with good tanks, it's still only 2-3 volleys to drop them; easy points. My advice to anyone in a match with lots of murder taxis is just pull out a fit with a swarm and an SMG, and just rack up those points on the murder taxis; the SMG works great in close to deal with defending objectives.