DUST Search - "Dust 514: Current Problems and Solutions" at themittani.com

Herli Pascal wrote:

Wow, I wasn't expecting a cogent and level headed response, much less as the first comment to the thread.

As for my response, you make very valid point. We obviously have some differing opinions but overall I'd agree with your counterpoints. Specifically about the weapon ranges, I suppose I was trying to address the overabundance of Tac ARs in battles. Their popularity may be akin to the fitting flavor of the month in Eve, and if that's the case I don't think the devs should try to actively shift the meta barring some sort of imbalance.

Also thanks for the tip about the aim assist. I'm going to have to try that.

Cass Barr wrote:

Were you expecting something more along the lines of "Kitten mittens he's the devil! And goons can all go the hell!!1!"?

Personally I think DS3 users should turn off aim-assist as well. I alternated back and forth with it over the last week and a half, and honestly once I re-acclimate to the assist being off, I find aiming to be better, smoother, and quicker

Ivan Avogadro wrote:

I honestly believe there are problems beyond the gameplay mechanics that need to be addressed to make the game more fundamentally sound. The only major gameplay element is to out kill your enemy. People have grumbled about this before, that even the game modes that have asset objectives (Skirmish and Domination) you can revert to out killing rather than out performing your enemy.

Ivan Avogardo wrote:

Organic battles, like the one in EVE several months ago that had over 2000 players, simply canGÇÖt occur in DUST. We are unable to storm enemy planets without a 24hr warning timer. We canGÇÖt abandon a lost cause or initiate a route to a different district. The only strategy is: announce yourself, show up tomorrow to fight, and play in a normal Skirmish mode. Why canGÇÖt I log in, look at my Starmap for a warzone, and drop into a massive fight? What other FPS, or MMO for that matter, operates on a day long timer? In EVE you are allowed to fly around and attack whoever you stumble upon. In DUST I need to stand in a queue for several minutes with a list of my allies and opponents readily available. ThatGÇÖs how a sporting event works, not a paramilitary operation.

Another problem is that players in DUST donGÇÖt really own any assets on a map, which is why objective play is hard to achieve currently. Defenders technically GÇ£ownGÇ¥ the whole map, but there are no individual assets really worth protecting aside from GÇ£half+1 lone cannonsGÇ¥. If there were legitimate assets that held meaningful impact on the flow of battle, people would gladly sacrifice themselves in order to hold them. Planetside understood this, and gave players military bases to defend and attack. Getting inside a PS base was tough work, and laying a hack deep inside was worse. Then if you did turn it to your side, it required time to bring all its functions online (like the spawn beacon or vehicle depot). In DUST, all you have is empty building one or empty building two, and each maybe has a good vantage point. But if you get kicked out of a GÇ£good spotGÇ¥ in DUST there is no reason to go take it back if it will cost more clones. The maps are almost completely non-interactive.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Abu Stij Goonfeet 73	Posted - 2013.05.22 15:08:00 - [1] - Quote Good article Lioso. Here's some things I would like to provide a counterpoint to, as well as add on to: AIMING - If you're using "Aim Assist" with the Keyboard & Mouse, turn it off. It's not worth it and your aim is hindered. - When using an AR or SMG, use short bursts to control the spread. It's more on the player at that point than the system. - Learn where your weapons "optimal range" is, it may take some figuring out but you'll start recognize the size of your target and whether your gun can actually hit it from that distance. MAPPING & WEAPON RANGE - I sort of touched on "optimal range" above, it seems from my experience to be more so the player and less so the gun but that's a subjective viewpoint. - There are a lot of maps with enough terrain & objects to hide behind between structures & points. Variety is more pertinent at the moment. - The map size isn't really an issue, the problem I see is the red line. It doesn't really make sense why you can't go to a certain part of the map the other guys are just sitting in with no issue. This is especially a problem if you have the "Red Line Snipers" who are easily defended by the red line mechanic. You can't force the sniper from his spot in your teams red line at all without simply having a sniper take him out. That's a limited number of choices. Anyone should be able to sneak around and take that sniper out, the red line isn't really needed outside of making your MCC a safe spot (NOTE: that doesn't mean make the area on the ground around the MCC safe, just the MCC itself). SQUADDING - As an EVE player you can agree that Fleets are just as much of a clusterfuck to set up at times and especially when you try to get people situated in the right wings. It's something CCP needs to fix the UI on in both games. - A squad finder can't really work like the fleet finder as the "playing field" is much larger and easier to enter in EVE than in DUST. At present putting in "LFS (looking for squad)" seems to be fine, but yes it would be nice to address how to not need to use the horrible PlayStation 3 virtual keyboard.
Abu Stij Goonfeet 75	Posted - 2013.05.22 17:28:00 - [2] - Quote Herli Pascal wrote: Wow, I wasn't expecting a cogent and level headed response, much less as the first comment to the thread. As for my response, you make very valid point. We obviously have some differing opinions but overall I'd agree with your counterpoints. Specifically about the weapon ranges, I suppose I was trying to address the overabundance of Tac ARs in battles. Their popularity may be akin to the fitting flavor of the month in Eve, and if that's the case I don't think the devs should try to actively shift the meta barring some sort of imbalance. Also thanks for the tip about the aim assist. I'm going to have to try that. Well we can't always be mocking the people on the forums. I think the TAC AR's is just the flavor of the month due to teh current balance of weapons. You have a similar issue in MechWarrior Online thanks to LRM's being adjusted recently, and in EVE you get that in spats just due to the balance of ships and fittings at the time. Its the "metagame" in terms of balance and yes I think the TAC AR is a bit more powerful, but it may also just be a flock like mentality in "omg its so power" when in actuality its not. Hard data would prove/disprove that theory. Cass Barr wrote: Were you expecting something more along the lines of "Kitten mittens he's the devil! And goons can all go the hell!!1!"? Personally I think DS3 users should turn off aim-assist as well. I alternated back and forth with it over the last week and a half, and honestly once I re-acclimate to the assist being off, I find aiming to be better, smoother, and quicker It's not like we'd care about people saying that anyway. We enjoy those comments. As for DualShock 3, I can't speak to that. I'm of the mindset a Mouse & Keyboard is far better of a tool for an FPS than a controller. Ivan Avogadro wrote: I honestly believe there are problems beyond the gameplay mechanics that need to be addressed to make the game more fundamentally sound. The only major gameplay element is to out kill your enemy. People have grumbled about this before, that even the game modes that have asset objectives (Skirmish and Domination) you can revert to out killing rather than out performing your enemy. I fully agree, and with the introduction of the Grief University and this whole AWOXing debate, it seems certain parts of this community don't want anything more than a Free-to-Play Halo game on PS3. Ivan Avogardo wrote: Organic battles, like the one in EVE several months ago that had over 2000 players, simply canGÇÖt occur in DUST. We are unable to storm enemy planets without a 24hr warning timer. We canGÇÖt abandon a lost cause or initiate a route to a different district. The only strategy is: announce yourself, show up tomorrow to fight, and play in a normal Skirmish mode. Why canGÇÖt I log in, look at my Starmap for a warzone, and drop into a massive fight? What other FPS, or MMO for that matter, operates on a day long timer? In EVE you are allowed to fly around and attack whoever you stumble upon. In DUST I need to stand in a queue for several minutes with a list of my allies and opponents readily available. ThatGÇÖs how a sporting event works, not a paramilitary operation. Another problem is that players in DUST donGÇÖt really own any assets on a map, which is why objective play is hard to achieve currently. Defenders technically GÇ£ownGÇ¥ the whole map, but there are no individual assets really worth protecting aside from GÇ£half+1 lone cannonsGÇ¥. If there were legitimate assets that held meaningful impact on the flow of battle, people would gladly sacrifice themselves in order to hold them. Planetside understood this, and gave players military bases to defend and attack. Getting inside a PS base was tough work, and laying a hack deep inside was worse. Then if you did turn it to your side, it required time to bring all its functions online (like the spawn beacon or vehicle depot). In DUST, all you have is empty building one or empty building two, and each maybe has a good vantage point. But if you get kicked out of a GÇ£good spotGÇ¥ in DUST there is no reason to go take it back if it will cost more clones. The maps are almost completely non-interactive. That's the ultimate issue with match making in DUST. The warning system is somewhat "anti-EVE" as in the older brother to DUST, you can attack without warning (see: cyno'ng in a fleet) Planetside is a good comparison for DUST and hopefully it becomes less about "pre-determined match times" and battles can spark sporadically as that is a staple to NullSec PVP in EVE. Perhaps thats the plan, keep High Sec & Low Sec in a "pre-determined" state, and make NullSec more organic like you have described above. If so, that would be a very interesting thing but I'm not sure the game engine nor the system can handle that at its current state. A PlayStation 4 perhaps, but thats pure speculation and even then it would alienate people who aren't fast to dropping $600 on a new system this December.
Abu Stij Goonfeet 75	Posted - 2013.05.22 17:36:00 - [3] - Quote Skihids wrote: I've been arguing this point for a while now. There is no challenge in DUST that can't be answered with "more firepower". Every class is evaluated by its ability to put out DPS. Every player is measured by the assault yardstick, KDR. We won't have true Scout or Pilot roles until there is a need for their unique abilities in order to win a battle. Even then we won't see it in Instant Battles where winning or losing makes no difference to the individual player.. I concur, the "throw more guns at it" approach is thus far the only real way to win. The current PC AWOXing is a new wrinkle in the game and is healthy as it allows you to manipulate the outcome of battles with a new tool introduced. The KDR yardstick is somewhat silly in a game where KDR doesn't really matter in the long run, short run yes you can win districts with your high KDR, but as we see in EVE you can win wars without firing a single shot with some well placed words. The meta-game is still growing and the culture shock to the Console FPS players is going to continue, with market manipulation set up for players able to impact it, as well as more and more EVE players bothering with fighting over planets (LowSec planets don't really matter to most of the EVE players), the various ways to defeat your enemies will become more apparent and robust.
Abu Stij Goonfeet 75	Posted - 2013.05.22 17:54:00 - [4] - Quote omega 015 wrote: The massive battles you mention will not be able to take place on the ps3, the hardware simply won't support it. This machine has under 1 gig of ram. It may have more than this but it is certainly far less powerful than an average gamer's computer. While that's true, the massive battles are so much as important as the ability to have sporadic battles where there is not a 24 hour timer alert.