DUST Search - CPM Topic: How would you fix AWOXing

Nova Knife wrote:

People are getting too caught up on kicking as a 'solution'.

The Long term, 'Best' Fix is proper roles to manage who can join PC, and Toggles for if a corp wants to allow 'ringers' in their matches or not. (Ringing honestly needs it's own contract marketplace IMO, but that is another issue/feature for later)

The only reason CCP is discussing kicking is because it's something they can implement fairly quickly. I don't know about you guys, but I don't want ANOTHER half-assed, ill thought and disruptive mechanic put into the game to 'fix' a problem that only exists because of the same reason.

To put it simply; CCP will add kicking over my QQ'ing corpse. I will fight tooth and nail to prevent any player from ever having control of the ability to kick another from any match. Of course, CCP is under no obligation to listen to me, but that's my thoughts on it. Every lobby multiplayer game I have ever played that allowed kicking, it was abused. It was not fun for anyone but the person doing the kicking. I can promise you that if a player is ever able to kick another player from the match... It will be used for far worse things than someone wasting an alt to win a match for their friends.

Just because someone has director roles doesn't mean they aren't a jerk. You could argue "Oh, they should find a new corp if their directors suck" but what if they like their corpmates, and the director is so far up the CEO's ass that he will never be punished?

Instead of getting caught up on 'fixing' the real problem by creating a different (much worse) problem, what people should be doing in this thread is exploring other methods to stop effortless sabotage that CCP can implement in the short term, that won't cause a massive headache and ruin people's fun?

'Preventing' the awox is a far more important step than 'stopping' the awox IMO. Proper role management IS coming. That fix WILL happen, but not any time in the immediate future. They need to wait for a major expansion for that. Like I said above : right now what the community should focus on is something that will make things better in the meantime without making things worse elsewhere.


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Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 977	Posted - 2013.05.21 07:50:00 - [1] - Quote People are getting too caught up on kicking as a 'solution'. The Long term, 'Best' Fix is proper roles to manage who can join PC, and Toggles for if a corp wants to allow 'ringers' in their matches or not. (Ringing honestly needs it's own contract marketplace IMO, but that is another issue/feature for later) The only reason CCP is discussing kicking is because it's something they can implement fairly quickly. I don't know about you guys, but I don't want ANOTHER half-assed, ill thought and disruptive mechanic put into the game to 'fix' a problem that only exists because of the same reason. To put it simply; CCP will add kicking over my QQ'ing corpse. I will fight tooth and nail to prevent any player from ever having control of the ability to kick another from any match. Of course, CCP is under no obligation to listen to me, but that's my thoughts on it. Every lobby multiplayer game I have ever played that allowed kicking, it was abused. It was not fun for anyone but the person doing the kicking. I can promise you that if a player is ever able to kick another player from the match... It will be used for far worse things than someone wasting an alt to win a match for their friends. Just because someone has director roles doesn't mean they aren't a jerk. You could argue "Oh, they should find a new corp if their directors suck" but what if they like their corpmates, and the director is so far up the CEO's ass that he will never be punished? Instead of getting caught up on 'fixing' the real problem by creating a different (much worse) problem, what people should be doing in this thread is exploring other methods to stop effortless sabotage that CCP can implement in the short term, that won't cause a massive headache and ruin people's fun? 'Preventing' the awox is a far more important step than 'stopping' the awox IMO. Proper role management IS coming. That fix WILL happen, but not any time in the immediate future. They need to wait for a major expansion for that. Like I said above : right now what the community should focus on is something that will make things better in the meantime without making things worse elsewhere.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 983	Posted - 2013.05.21 10:46:00 - [2] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: People are getting too caught up on kicking as a 'solution'. The Long term, 'Best' Fix is proper roles to manage who can join PC, and Toggles for if a corp wants to allow 'ringers' in their matches or not. (Ringing honestly needs it's own contract marketplace IMO, but that is another issue/feature for later) The only reason CCP is discussing kicking is because it's something they can implement fairly quickly. I don't know about you guys, but I don't want ANOTHER half-assed, ill thought and disruptive mechanic put into the game to 'fix' a problem that only exists because of the same reason. To put it simply; CCP will add kicking over my QQ'ing corpse. I will fight tooth and nail to prevent any player from ever having control of the ability to kick another from any match. Of course, CCP is under no obligation to listen to me, but that's my thoughts on it. Every lobby multiplayer game I have ever played that allowed kicking, it was abused. It was not fun for anyone but the person doing the kicking. I can promise you that if a player is ever able to kick another player from the match... It will be used for far worse things than someone wasting an alt to win a match for their friends. Just because someone has director roles doesn't mean they aren't a jerk. You could argue "Oh, they should find a new corp if their directors suck" but what if they like their corpmates, and the director is so far up the CEO's ass that he will never be punished? Instead of getting caught up on 'fixing' the real problem by creating a different (much worse) problem, what people should be doing in this thread is exploring other methods to stop effortless sabotage that CCP can implement in the short term, that won't cause a massive headache and ruin people's fun? 'Preventing' the awox is a far more important step than 'stopping' the awox IMO. Proper role management IS coming. That fix WILL happen, but not any time in the immediate future. They need to wait for a major expansion for that. Like I said above : right now what the community should focus on is something that will make things better in the meantime without making things worse elsewhere. I don't always quote myself, but when I do, I feel sad that I need to reinforce a point that way.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 993	Posted - 2013.05.21 15:15:00 - [3] - Quote Heidoukan wrote: Iron Wolf Saber and Nova Knife. Just focus on reviewing the ideas people are giving you for this thread. Trust me, it creates less stress and it's more productive. I'm open to ideas that don't revolve around players being able to kick players from matches. The idea of 'clone denial' is still a kick, just a delayed one. Aside from that, there hasn't really been a single suggestion in the thread that isn't relating to kicking (Either supporting or against it) While debating this elsewhere, I put forward the solution for the meantime that adds a layer of optional protection : Give corps a 'ringer' toggle. Note : This is something that hurts my personal playstyle and primary method of play. I am willing to give a couple months of my primary playstyle being disrupted to wait for a PROPER SOLUTION, and would much rather see that in place until proper roster management does come. The toggle would essentially become a "Check this box if you want outside help but fully accept the risk of them screwing you over" Ringing would still be possible, but having a day old alt bring in a squad of dedicated outside griefers would be more difficult. It's not ideal, but it's something they can implement in roughly the same short term as a kick option, and directly adresses the problem without really creating worse problems in the process.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 993	Posted - 2013.05.21 15:26:00 - [4] - Quote RECON BY FIRE wrote: Dude, your concepts are garbage. Please do the job you were selected for, figure out a good way to vote for CPMs, and then gtfo. Part of the job is calling CCP on their ****. Telling them not to implement a half-assed broken mechanic to 'fix' another half-assed broken mechanic is a natural step from this. (If you think Player kicking will stop Awoxing, It won't. Players will just awox every match that doesn't have a director (or someone with the 'kick role' present.) Kicking is not a solution. It is a problem. We need to let the kick idea die in a fire and come up with solutions that will actually address the problem.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 994	Posted - 2013.05.21 15:37:00 - [5] - Quote Cass Barr wrote: For someone whose role is 50% listening, you suck at it. My 8 year old nephew listens better. To flat out say you're ignoring any proposal that incorporates a mechanic you personally disagree with is anathema to your job. It's even dumber when there are proposals that utilize that mechanic while avoiding the issues you CLAIM to be concerned about. But no, let's have some dipshit suicide in the MCC all match, b/c that isn't completely and totally asinine. Gonna have to agree with Recon here. Institute a system for voting, then kindly go back to being regular players. We'll probably all enjoy it more that way, yourselves included. Maybe I chose my words poorly. I'm not going to edit the earlier post and recant, though. I am not going to ignore anyone. But seriously : What benefit does kicking add, if it doesn't actually address the real issue at hand (Awoxing being too easy) since people will just not awox in matches and save all their 'griefing' for when they know they can't be kicked? It's still just as easy. It'll still be just as rampant. For the 1 situation out of 10 where an awoxer will be kicked, the other 9 times the kick feature is used will be it being abused for other reasons (Mostly stemming from people with the 'kick role' being jerks) You can hate me all you want for wanting a PROPER FIX to a problem rather than a halfassed, barely applicable band-aid being thrown out in a knee-jerk reaction. (That IMO will only serve to open more, much worse wounds in the long run)
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 994	Posted - 2013.05.21 15:46:00 - [6] - Quote Surt gods end wrote: Did you bother reading Chicago's post? Step away from your own personal view for a sec, and can you see why a console or someone That's on the "military side" of this game are anti spy? Not saying to stop it completely but how is switch the spy to red, the same as kicking? the reds have numbers in favor now. what it seems you want is a way to water down the strength of good FPS players. What can a player do if the other one is in mcc blowing himself up? So the weak sorry "smart" can win by caging the wolf? "Turning people red" is an nice idea but not something they can do in the short term, which is why Ironwolf made this thread. Role and roster management will/should sort itself out in the next expansion, but won't make it out anytime in the near future. I read Chicago's post, but I am highly opposed to the notion that there is a difference between PC and Console gamer mentality due to platform. Due to game styles, possibly. But I think the idea that PC gamers have different mindsets to Console gamers is about as hollow an argument as either side going "Because XXX platform is full of 12 year olds" This is not about my personal thoughts. If I was the only one who thought like this, I would quietly let it die and be bitter about it (Like when CCP added revives a year ago and I was the very minor vocal minority to get them removed) This thread in addition to the one we're currently posting in has indicated that I'm not alone in this. My only agenda is making sure CCP doesn't do something in a knee-jerk reaction that they will regret later.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 994	Posted - 2013.05.21 15:47:00 - [7] - Quote NewOldMan wrote: Password protected planetary conquest matches. When a director moves to attack a district or gets the notification for a defense of one. They are then given the option to set a password for the match. This makes it to where the people able to hop in a match have to be trusted, or pay off someone who is trusted to get in the match. Lore wise, there's a reason you have to hack CRUs. I really, really like this idea.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 997	Posted - 2013.05.21 15:51:00 - [8] - Quote Cass Barr wrote: In the short term password protection on a match by match basis is probably the best alternative. Agreed, and it's probably something they could do in an equally brief set of devtime and have it to us very quickly without waiting for a major expanion. NewoldMan can have all my likes.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 997	Posted - 2013.05.21 16:39:00 - [9] - Quote CHICAGOCUBS4EVER wrote: so explain how requiring a password would prevent TKers? It wouldn't. Nor should it. What the password idea provides is some manner of roster limitation. Which is what -everyone- (or almost everyone, including the people both against and supporting kick) agree is the problem with awox in current form. It's too easy to use a alt who just joined the corp 5 minutes ago to 'sabotage' a PC match. No one with any sort of logic thinks this is good thing. Passwords provide corps with a method to 'control' who gets in to some degree, and good spies can stil take advantage of this.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 997	Posted - 2013.05.21 17:29:00 - [10] - Quote CHICAGOCUBS4EVER wrote: so explain how requiring a password would prevent TKers? It wouldn't. Nor should it. What the password idea provides is some manner of roster limitation. Which is what -everyone- (or almost everyone, including the people both against and supporting kick) agree is the problem with awox in current form. It's too easy to use a alt who just joined the corp 5 minutes ago to 'sabotage' a PC match. No one with any sort of logic thinks this is good thing. Passwords provide corps with a method to 'control' who gets in to some degree, and good spies can still take advantage of this. PC launching without some method of roster control was a serious mistake. It's not the best solution overall but it's the best solution they can do -quickly- and will have meaningful uses even after proper roles are established.

Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 998	Posted - 2013.05.21 19:44:00 - [11] - Quote Maximus Stryker wrote: "Care to lay out "the options right now" That was kind of the point of this thread. To lay out options and then get CCP's input on what is possible to get out in a matter of days or weeks, without waiting months for an expansion. Ironwolf is just not very good at creating threads like this yet :P Edit: But to answer your question, the two potions that we know for sure (so far) can be done quickly are 1) kicking, and 2) Passwords Stuff like roles, marking people red, clone denial, etc. All would take much longer.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 1011	Posted - 2013.05.22 06:41:00 - [12] - Quote Maximus Stryker wrote: Upon further reflection and consideration of the issues, I have come to the conclusion that easy team killing should not be a viable option in a competitive first person shooter. I understand this is New Eden and that sort of thing may be present in EVE Online, but EVE is not a FPS, it is not limited to the number of participants in battle (you can call for immediate back up to deal with team killers in EVE) and EVE is not billed as a competitive FPS game. I know I'm snipping your quote, but I don't intend to take what you said out of context. (Even if this is slightly off-topic anyways) I do not believe it is possible to have a well balanced, 'Competitive' game without complete friendly fire enabled. The chance for griefing is a necessary evil that comes from that. New Eden has nothing to do with that, IMO. This is not one of those cases where "Because eve does it this way" it is good. While I love the drama it creates and the ability for it to make wickied stories of ruin and sabotage... FF is absolutely necessary (and IMO should be enabled in EVERY game mode) for a good balance to be struck. Blob tactics self police when there is a chance that strafing in a blob means kiling your buddies when they 'dance' in front of you. Splash damage weapons become as much of a risk as a boon, potentially. Reckless Driving & Roadkilling become a danger for both teams. "Competitive" and "Good" teams will work to overcome FF, and be generally more solid (Thus allowing them to be more competitive) While I empathize with the viewpoint of "A couple morons should not be able to make my team lose" .... I think FF is only a small part of sabotage and 'awoxing' honestly only a fad right now. Sure, there's some people who will use it to great effect. But as time goes on, corporations will learn ways to prevent it (Most corps have set up holding corps and feeder corps already) As more and more 'spy alts' are discovered and kicked out the match after their deed is done, it will become less common practice. The important thing is giving corps tools to control who takes part in their battles, and while it is obviously not fun for the victims, the fact that this happens is honestly awesome in the long run. It's just too easy right now.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 1017	Posted - 2013.05.22 21:06:00 - [13] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Wow, these CPMs are wild....they are only going to "poke" CCP with ideas that they like, whether it is a representation of the majority of the community or not. Just FYI, this isn't true. We appropriately pimped the three (Well, two... one of them turned out not to be so easy) 'short term' options suggested by the community that they could've done to address the issue and had out within weeks instead of forcing people to wait months for the next expansion. The options presented to CCP for the immediate future were as follows: Kick from match Password control over matches Using a placeholder role from Eve as a "Can join" or "Squad leader" role for PC (This turned out to be more difficult than one might think) Don't rush into making ugly fixes. Do nothing, and allow the current player 'solution' of holding corps to play out, even if it's messy as hell Most of us didn't just comment on the issue we liked most, we discussed the benefits (and perceived concerns) of each option and left it in CCP's hands to do whatever they felt best. That being said : @ Ydubbs There's rarely a case when 'the majority' of the community wants anything. In this case, the majority of the community realizes that awoxing is too easy, but to say that the majority agreed on any short term solution is completely false. One can easily selectively read and say "But there is so many posts saying people want X" but the truth is that almost every suggestion in favor of something had an equal (or almost equal) amount of people saying "But X is bad". In the long term, most people can agree that giving corps proper management tools (Whatever those tools may be) is the optimal solution, and it is. This thread was not about the long term, though. It was about finding something CCP can do -now- (If anything needed to be done at all) In cases like this, it really doesn't matter what option the CPM likes most. Our job isn't to pick what CCP does. It's to make sure they know the benefits and harm each option can cause and leave it to them to do whatever solution is 'right'.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 1018	Posted - 2013.05.22 22:53:00 - [14] - Quote @ Max: The concern with kicks are mostly twofold: 1) That it doesn't actually address the issue at hand : It is too easy for people to get into a PC battle, no matter how long they have been with a corporation. There's no effort involved in the joining. Kicks are a reactionary measure, and require a CEO/Director to be in the battle. Some corps have enough (or active enough) directors to make this possible, but I do not think most do. This means that even if CCP implements a kick, 'awoxing' will still be very much possible, just as easy, and not hindered in the slightest. People will just wait until the people with kick power are offline or not in the match. In this case, the issue itself still exists, and the ease of joining matches without effort remains. (Thus maintaining the recruitment bottleneck we're seeing now, because you still don't want 'untrusted' people have access to PC) 2) While someone would be able to kick an 'awoxer' out of a match, there is concern that kicks would be abused mostly for other situations instead, which are much less fun for the people being kicked. Such as : "Director wants their BFF in the match instead of X player." "Director gets accidentally teamkilled due to incompetence (on either part)" "Director simply doesn't like player X" This list does indeed go on, but the basic point is that kicks will be rarely ever used to combat 'awoxers' (And perhaps even benefit them) People have argued this point with "If your leadership is bad, just leave", and that is a valid statement. However, in reality... While some people are not attached and would easily hop corps to find one with leaders who aren't jerks... There is a large number of people who will stay in a corp/clan/group/guild/whatever despite any abuse by someone in a leadership position, because they are loyal to their fellow members and enjoy playing with them. Many FPS clans that have and will migrate to dust have been together for years. While sometimes people mess around with power for 'lulz', most of these people will never leave their group no matter what their leader (or directors) do. Being kicked for awoxing is a legit thing, being kicked 'just because' is an incredibly unfun experience for everyone involved except the person who actually has the power to kick. (Especially if you get kicked after spending and losing a bunch of proto ****, and they just don't want to share loot with you)