DUST Search - CPM Topic: How would you fix AWOXing

Cass Barr wrote:

Allow kicking in the form of denying the use of corporate clones to the saboteur. If the enemy team wants to give them access to their clones, that's their choice. Otherwise they are removed from the battle the next time they die. Commanders and higher rank can grant clone access to rogue third parties in the battles. There should be a 1 minute timer from the time an agent is removed from the team's clones that the opposing team can allow the agent access to theirs. During this timer the agent will not be removed from the battle, just prevented from respawning if killed. This is to prevent an agent from being kicked killed and booted in rapid succession. If kicking is allowed in the pre-battle MCC the enemy team needs the ability to grant clone access that early as well. There also needs to be a 1:30 spawn timer at the start of the match, for reasons I went into elsewhere.

Add the following roles under director: Commander, Squad Lead.

Commander, Directors, and CEOs have implicit permission to join PC battles. Squad leaders need explicit permission, but only to join PC battles in general (meaning they only need a checkbox somewhere to allow them to join all PC battles, do not require explicit permission for each individual battle). Grunts require nothing, just being in the squad of someone with PC permissions to get them in. Send after-action reports to the CEO stating who joined a battle when and with whom, to prevent abusing the mechanic allowing a rogue to pull in hostile squads without ever risking his identity.

Officers can only kick players of lower rank, and they must be present in the battle to do so. Squad leaders can only kick mercs in their squad. Once kicked the player is removed from the battle the next time they die if they haven't been granted access to the other team's clones within a minute of having been kicked.

I think this is a flexible system of controls that still allows for sabotage of varying degrees of severity, dependent on how much planning went into implementing it and how much time and effort went into the infiltration.


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Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 26	Posted - 2013.05.21 14:00:00 - [1] - Quote Allow kicking in the form of denying the use of corporate clones to the saboteur. If the enemy team wants to give them access to their clones, that's their choice. Otherwise they are removed from the battle the next time they die. Commanders and higher rank can grant clone access to rogue third parties in the battles. There should be a 1 minute timer from the time an agent is removed from the team's clones that the opposing team can allow the agent access to theirs. During this timer the agent will not be removed from the battle, just prevented from respawning if killed. This is to prevent an agent from being kicked killed and booted in rapid succession. If kicking is allowed in the pre-battle MCC the enemy team needs the ability to grant clone access that early as well. There also needs to be a 1:30 spawn timer at the start of the match, for reasons I went into elsewhere. Add the following roles under director: Commander, Squad Lead. Commander, Directors, and CEOs have implicit permission to join PC battles. Squad leaders need explicit permission, but only to join PC battles in general (meaning they only need a checkbox somewhere to allow them to join all PC battles, do not require explicit permission for each individual battle). Grunts require nothing, just being in the squad of someone with PC permissions to get them in. Send after-action reports to the CEO stating who joined a battle when and with whom, to prevent abusing the mechanic allowing a rogue to pull in hostile squads without ever risking his identity. Officers can only kick players of lower rank, and they must be present in the battle to do so. Squad leaders can only kick mercs in their squad. Once kicked the player is removed from the battle the next time they die if they haven't been granted access to the other team's clones within a minute of having been kicked. I think this is a flexible system of controls that still allows for sabotage of varying degrees of severity, dependent on how much planning went into implementing it and how much time and effort went into the infiltration.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 26	Posted - 2013.05.21 14:23:00 - [2] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Sorry about the bad examples but here is where I see kick function being at It will be the same as refunding isk a disgruntled director stole from the corp. Oh please an ISK refund like that that is basically obviating the entire sabotage. With a system like I outlined any smart saboteur can have a very large impact on a battle without it being so inane as sitting in the MCC eating grenades and lol'ing while no one can do anything about it. You really think those two are at all in any way equivalent?
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 26	Posted - 2013.05.21 14:41:00 - [3] - Quote And losing a battle, likely at least 150, and potentially all the way up to 450 clones isn't having an impact? What the hell would you call that then?
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 26	Posted - 2013.05.21 14:58:00 - [4] - Quote Or you could quit ignoring solutions that resolve both sides of the problem simply because it uses a mechanic you personally disagree with. Or maybe it's because you don't understand it that you ignore it.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 26	Posted - 2013.05.21 15:32:00 - [5] - Quote For someone whose role is 50% listening, you suck at it. My 8 year old nephew listens better. To flat out say you're ignoring any proposal that incorporates a mechanic you personally disagree with is anathema to your job. It's even dumber when there are proposals that utilize that mechanic while avoiding the issues you CLAIM to be concerned about. But no, let's have some dipshit suicide in the MCC all match, b/c that isn't completely and totally asinine. Gonna have to agree with Recon here. Institute a system for voting, then kindly go back to being regular players. We'll probably all enjoy it more that way, yourselves included.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 26	Posted - 2013.05.21 15:44:00 - [6] - Quote Cass Barr wrote: Allow kicking in the form of denying the use of corporate clones to the saboteur. If the enemy team wants to give them access to their clones, that's their choice. Otherwise they are removed from the battle the next time they die. Commanders and higher rank can grant clone access to rogue third parties in the battles. There should be a 1 minute timer from the time an agent is removed from the team's clones that the opposing team can allow the agent access to theirs. During this timer the agent will not be removed from the battle, just prevented from respawning if killed. This is to prevent an agent from being kicked killed and booted in rapid succession. If kicking is allowed in the pre-battle MCC the enemy team needs the ability to grant clone access that early as well. There also needs to be a 1:30 spawn timer at the start of the match, for reasons I went into elsewhere. Add the following roles under director: Commander, Squad Lead. Commander, Directors, and CEOs have implicit permission to join PC battles. Squad leaders need explicit permission, but only to join PC battles in general (meaning they only need a checkbox somewhere to allow them to join all PC battles, do not require explicit permission for each individual battle). Grunts require nothing, just being in the squad of someone with PC permissions to get them in. Send after-action reports to the CEO stating who joined a battle when and with whom, to prevent abusing the mechanic allowing a rogue to pull in hostile squads without ever risking his identity. Officers can only kick players of lower rank, and they must be present in the battle to do so. Squad leaders can only kick mercs in their squad. Once kicked the player is removed from the battle the next time they die if they haven't been granted access to the other team's clones within a minute of having been kicked. I think this is a flexible system of controls that still allows for sabotage of varying degrees of severity, dependent on how much planning went into implementing it and how much time and effort went into the infiltration. Well, in this proposal there's always someone with the ability to kick. And why are you even talking about people being jerks with the kick button? If a Corporation is like that it will hemorrhage players and die, they'll be no one left but the idiots who supported doing that. Besides if a CEO wants his Corp to be run like a dumbass dictatorship that's his prerogative. Quit throwing red herrings into the argument please. So what's the REAL problems with it, because I'm sure there are ways to suss them out.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 28	Posted - 2013.05.21 15:49:00 - [7] - Quote In the short term password protection on a match by match basis is probably the best alternative.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 28	Posted - 2013.05.21 16:10:00 - [8] - Quote Just to be clear I was agreeing with NewOldMan, not trying to pass it off as my idea. I was not thinking of short term fixes as the first posts in the thread made no mention of looking for them specifically.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 28	Posted - 2013.05.21 16:25:00 - [9] - Quote Caeli SineDeo wrote: First of CCP needs to allow people to hold multiple rights on dust. 3 rights attributed to members of corps to fix AWOXING 1. Right to join PC battles. This is the lowest of the rights and this only allows you to join by yourself. You can not bring a squad in. 2. Right to bring a squad in. This means you can bring in anyone you want to a PC battle. This allows you to bring none members into PC and also allows you to bring people who do not have the right to join PC by themselves. This is a spot that requires more trust. 3. the kick function. This should not be linked to directors roll at all. This needs to be a separate role in itself. Now you can only kick in the war barge. This allows you to easily get ride of anyone who might have accidently got in there and also any evil squads that sneak in with someone. Once in the match and it has started you loose rights to this function. and ur stuck with who made it into battle with you. This makes it possible to AWOX after you have gained trust and worked your way into alliance. But it makes it difficult. You need to work your way up to gain the most rights. It also lets corps have more control over who has what rights. So if someone reveals themselves to be a traitor during the game they get to just eat grenades in the mcc all match? I think that's a poor mechanic since there're no way for the betrayed team to respond nor does it require any effort on the part of the other team to facilitate the betrayal and gain an advantage from it. It's just a lame suicide party.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 29	Posted - 2013.05.21 16:49:00 - [10] - Quote Caeli SineDeo wrote: Cass Barr wrote: Caeli SineDeo wrote: First of CCP needs to allow people to hold multiple rights on dust. 3 rights attributed to members of corps to fix AWOXING 1. Right to join PC battles. This is the lowest of the rights and this only allows you to join by yourself. You can not bring a squad in. 2. Right to bring a squad in. This means you can bring in anyone you want to a PC battle. This allows you to bring none members into PC and also allows you to bring people who do not have the right to join PC by themselves. This is a spot that requires more trust. 3. the kick function. This should not be linked to directors roll at all. This needs to be a separate role in itself. Now you can only kick in the war barge. This allows you to easily get ride of anyone who might have accidently got in there and also any evil squads that sneak in with someone. Once in the match and it has started you loose rights to this function. and ur stuck with who made it into battle with you. This makes it possible to AWOX after you have gained trust and worked your way into alliance. But it makes it difficult. You need to work your way up to gain the most rights. It also lets corps have more control over who has what rights. So if someone reveals themselves to be a traitor they get to just eat grenades in the mcc all match? I think that's a poor mechanic since there're no way for the betrayed team to respond nor does it require any effort on the part of the other team to facilitate the betrayal and gain an advantage from it. It's just a lame suicide party. The thing is they only effect one match. They went through the efforts put the work in to become trusted enought to make it into the match. So to me I do not think this is bad they have earned there right to AWOX if they make it through the warbarge and also gained the trust to be part of PC. If you allow kicking in the match then the whole ability to AWOX is basically gone because you can be replaced instantly. That is why i think kicking only before the match in the warbarge should be allowed. I'd prefer a system that required quick adaptation on the part of the betrayed team to mitigate casualties, as well as planning and coordination on the part of the opposing team (or a fluid recognition and response to an unplanned betrayal) to maximize the potential tactical advantage that awoxing provides. Awoxing by itself shouldn't guarantee a win. It should provide opportunities to both mitigate the damage, and maximize it. If it's properly supported by the opposing team it should provide a significant tactical advantage relative to the rank of the betraying player/s. If it's bungled by the opposing team, then the effects could be mitigated to some degree. (similar to Betamax and Hellstorm, but not exactly since the awoxers themselves screwed that up) Basically a dynamic system with the potential to dramatically alter the flow of battle or fail miserably depending on planning and execution on one side versus quick reaction and adaptation on the other. How much more interesting and cooler would that be than a suicide fest?

Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 29	Posted - 2013.05.21 16:55:00 - [11] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Currently Awoxing doesn't guarantee wins though there was a few corps yesterday bragging about foiling evil plans of betamax infiltration. Probably because they're running around trying to TK instead of wasting clones as quickly as possible. Are they even in comms relaying enemy positions and movements to their teams? Frankly if you awox in the current system and still lose it really is an epic fail.
Cass Barr Red Star. EoN. 29	Posted - 2013.05.21 17:11:00 - [12] - Quote RedRebelCork wrote: Cass Barr wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Currently Awoxing doesn't guarantee wins though there was a few corps yesterday bragging about foiling evil plans of betamax infiltration. Probably because they're running around trying to TK instead of wasting clones as quickly as possible. Are they even in comms relaying enemy positions and movements to their teams? Frankly if you awox in the current system and still lose it really is an epic fail. Absolutely. If done right it should result in a game with: 10 vs 16 hostiles friendlies destroying your equipment and rapidly depleting your clone reserves all your movements and position being relayed in real time How these guys make a mess of that is beyond me. I suppose that's what happens when you have people without a whiff of tactical sense and planning who think that the very act of betrayal should be sufficient to guarantee a win. "hai gias I join ur Corp and lolcrash ur pc battle cuz it's super hard and harhar I win cuz metagaming" I honestly think that's about the extent of the thought process for some of these people.