DUST Search - Current State of LAVs: Explaination, Problems, and Potential Solutions

Den-tredje Baron wrote:

MOST !! lav's are fine as they are. If you spec into advanced lavs i have no problem at all that i have to spend 2-3 hacled AV's on you. But what's messed up here and apparently no one other than OP sees is that militai lav can take 27# as many hacked av grenades as a tank can !!
Yes seen a previous youtube video by lowratehitman he throws 3 hacked AV grenades at a enemy soma and boom it's gone. Later he throws 2 same variant av grenades as a militia lav and first one only flinches of shields while second takes it down.
SO come on the militia LAV never needed any kind of EHP buff it was fine where it was. In chromosome you couldn't expect to be any kind of a danger while being in a LAV. Now well blimet you can tank swarms like no tomorrow and just drive on. I've even seen guys thrown AV nades at the vehicles, the vehicles got the guy ate the AV and drove happily on.
BUT !! do not touch logi lavs !! They are fine as they are !!. A logi LAV is meant to be there near the drontline and needs to have a big pool of EHP.

All i'm asking for is militia LAV's to get back to where they where in chromosome. They where what a militia thing was something you didn't expect to survive in against advanced or proto stuff. Right now militia lavs are eating hacked av thrown in their face !!!

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Piercing Serenity Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 334	Posted - 2013.05.21 00:08:00 - [1] - Quote LAVs have become a larger issue in Uprising, as many before me have mentioned. Thanks to the eHP buffs LAVs have received and the tightening of their controls, LAVs have become easier to drive, more responsive, and more durable. However, their ability to run people over has increased drastically. The current situation of LAVs is akin to redline sniping in Chromosome (And to a lesser extent, Uprising) in that free LAVs have become a viable means to get kills with little to no cost. Before someone mentions that LAVs have a hard counter GÇô AV grenades, Forges, and swarms (just to name a few), please understand that the number of hard counters at our disposal have not been able to curtain the scale of damage done by LAVs. In Chromosome, 10 kills seemed average for a redline sniper. Although redline sniping was a large problem, there were a number of hard counters GÇô Driving up in an LAV, Counter sniping, forge gunning GÇô none of these counters were abundant enough to discourage redline snipers. This scale has been magnified with LAVs. Although you can destroy a free LAV with a forge gun, any decent player could recoup the loss of five dropsuits by running people over. Maps like Manus peak have become even more dangerous and unenjoyably. The lack of cover still opens the map to sniper/Tac rifle fire, as well as leaving players unprotected as the move from letter to letter. Extra Credits GÇô a YouTube channel that covers game design and development issues GÇô has two relevant videos on this situation. The first covers the Skill to Power ratio, or the idea that in game items and tools need to have a non-linear curve of skill to power in order to maintain a healthy game. The second covers Counter Play GÇô the ability for a player to be creative and intuitive with his response to a given game mechanic, and make both the aggressor and the victim enjoy the engagement. Redline sniping and using LAVs as bumper cars have too high a ratio of power to skill, and the enjoyment is only one way. As a result, players who use this GÇ£techniqueGÇ¥ are not only taking the enjoyment out of matches where their use is out of control, but they are also hindering DUST in the long run by keeping young players from learning the skills they need to be effective in the gamesGÇÖ most competitive levels. For example: Smaller corporations have been pleading for a fairer shake in PC. How could they utilize the opportunity, if it was given to them, when the new members they recruit only have GÇ£Vehicular ManslaughterGÇ¥ on their resume? I have a few solutions that I will lightly touch on in General Discussions GÇô more specific details such as buff and percentage reductions will be done in Feedback/Requests. The following suggestions are all independent of each other: 1)Return Militia LAVs to their previous eHP, while slightly scaling down the eHP buffs given to other LAVs, specifically the Logistics LAV 2)Increase collision damage to LAVs, while preventing LAVs from exploding when they crash into a wall. Instead, the car should GÇ£shut downGÇ¥. It cannot be driven until repaired externally (You cannot use local repairs to fix this particular situation) 3)Remove free LAVs, and offer militia LAVs at low prices PS
Melted Kitt3n Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 9	Posted - 2013.05.21 00:16:00 - [2] - Quote Just increase speed of a lethal LAV run over.
Piercing Serenity Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 334	Posted - 2013.05.21 00:25:00 - [3] - Quote Melted Kitt3n wrote: Just increase speed of a lethal LAV run over. That treats a symptom - LAVs can kill people at relatively low speeds - instead of the disease. The problem is players believe that driving around in bumper cars is more effective at getting kills than they are. They don't use the turrets, they hardly use them as transport from one objective to the next, and they sometimes don't get out of their cars even when they are in areas too small to secure a kill. That is the issue at hand
BOZ MR Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 149	Posted - 2013.05.21 00:30:00 - [4] - Quote If you nerf tanks that much you have to deal with their LAVs. ADAPT OR DIE.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1054	Posted - 2013.05.21 00:32:00 - [5] - Quote I have an idea, it's kind of crazy, but I think it'll work: Spec into an AV weapon, not a grenade, but a goddamned weapon! I've actually spawned in with swarms lately just to get the jump on murder taxis. You can claim that AV weapons are useless, but look at how many free WP pinatas are rolling around.
Snaps Tremor The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 259	Posted - 2013.05.21 00:43:00 - [6] - Quote There will always be memes, biases and fads of the week. While sometimes hard to distinguish from real balance issues, in reality they're no more 'unbalanced' than someone constantly throwing fireballs in Street Fighter. The player losing to such a cheap and obvious trick will wail, ***** and moan until the sun goes down, but nobody asks Capcom to patch out fireballs, because everyone knows there are effective counters already present in the game. It's just, the losing player didn't use them. If AV was a million SP down the line before it did anything useful, or completely ineffective against LAVs, it'd be a bigger issue, but the issue here is people just not bothering with AV fits. That is what CCP need to work on, because changing figures to align with players that don't put up a fight means that when they eventually do, your figures are wrong again. Cue endless cycle of whining at devs on forums. In summary, if this week's fad is people driving in circles in LAVs, next week's fad should be proximity explosives, swarms, AV grenades, forge guns, plasma cannons and the occasional cheeky militia tank.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 441	Posted - 2013.05.21 00:45:00 - [7] - Quote av better..
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1057	Posted - 2013.05.21 00:49:00 - [8] - Quote I wish we had something that wasn't nerfed to the ground that could deal with all those pesky LAVs... something with large turrets and built like a tank... hmmm... if only...
Full Metal Kitten Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 421	Posted - 2013.05.21 01:03:00 - [9] - Quote My general rule of thumb is any gameplay that becomes hilarious when set to Benny Hill music might need a tweak.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 4477	Posted - 2013.05.21 01:04:00 - [10] - Quote Learn to LAV better, get a better gunner for your own LAVs and run them all down.

Piercing Serenity Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 334	Posted - 2013.05.21 01:28:00 - [11] - Quote @Cosgar: I'm glad that you have found something that works for you to deal with LAVs. But I'm curious - Do you do PC battles? I am not asking to be disrespectful, but to determine how far you've specced into another AV weapon. I'm currently sitting on 11.5M SP, and all of that has gone into building an AR slayer. That has been the requirement to stay competitive. With the SP respec and SP returns coming to us very soon, it would be entirely within my control to use AR and Swarms for example. I would not be nearly at the level PC requires, however. I will agree with you int that my 'complaints' are premature because I have not skilled into any AV weapons. Personally, I'm not asking that LAV ramming be removed from the game. I think that if you are getting in grenade range and you hit someone, you're not doing too bad. I would just like to make the initial skill curve for that particular method higher, just as we did with sniper rifles. @Snaps Tremor: Your point rings true. Perhaps I had a hard time distinguishing this issue from "real" balance issues. Although there are a few caveats to your statements, such as some people report using two to three Advanced AV grenades to kill a basic (I'm not sure on the level) LAV, which is more than anyone can throw in one passing of an LAV, the bulk of your post was correct. I'll take that under consideration as I go into DUST again. @IWS: Is there a way we can get your tags on the post - similar to DEV and GM tags?
Mortedeamor Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 64	Posted - 2013.05.21 01:37:00 - [12] - Quote my logi lav costs 190 k and 4 mill - 5 mill sp just like a proto suit ...it can take 2 lai dai packed nade which are proto nades not even 3 which is how many chances you get to pop me combined with 5 teammates stop crying grab some good nades logi lavs are right where they should be(2 lai dais fully skilled with 2 ward amp res stacks
Superluminal Replicant Planetary Response Organization 50	Posted - 2013.05.21 01:41:00 - [13] - Quote Came across one of those Elite pack LAVs today - Ishuhkone Watch Saga LAV (permanent). It took 2 shots from proto forge to take it out, I was shocked when it didn't blow up on the first shot lol. What's worse is they are BPO's so you can spam it all day and not care, really makes me want an elite pack so I can get one of these Murder Taxis
Mortedeamor Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 64	Posted - 2013.05.21 01:41:00 - [14] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Learn to LAV better, get a better gunner for your own LAVs and run them all down. or this ..or get better at shooting people out of lavs..or grab some mines ..or better av stop expecting to deal with proto vehicle without having any proto av the fact that you are on here whining about this means your dont have nades up enough and niether do your teammates. the only part of this thread that should have any support is the nerfing or removal of start infinite lavs upon graduation of scruberry academy. if someone wants a free murder taxi they should be coughing up cash and paying ccp to improve this damn game. if someone is going to specc proto amount of sp and isk into a lav it should require some form of proto av to deal with. i mean common really whining about vehicles being op is beneath you. at least i thought it was
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1058	Posted - 2013.05.21 01:43:00 - [15] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: @Cosgar: I'm glad that you have found something that works for you to deal with LAVs. But I'm curious - Do you do PC battles? I am not asking to be disrespectful, but to determine how far you've specced into another AV weapon. I'm currently sitting on 11.5M SP, and all of that has gone into building an AR slayer. That has been the requirement to stay competitive. With the SP respec and SP returns coming to us very soon, it would be entirely within my control to use AR and Swarms for example. I would not be nearly at the level PC requires, however. I will agree with you int that my 'complaints' are premature because I have not skilled into any AV weapons. Personally, I'm not asking that LAV ramming be removed from the game. I think that if you are getting in grenade range and you hit someone, you're not doing too bad. I would just like to make the initial skill curve for that particular method higher, just as we did with sniper rifles. You do realize that you can make a MLT forge gunner fit right? This doesn't have anything to do with competitive battles, it's common sense. AV is so good, you don't have to spec into it to take out the MLT murder taxis. But now that people are speccing into the real thing, you better start looking into something to use if you don't want to be roadkill.
Mortedeamor Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 64	Posted - 2013.05.21 01:45:00 - [16] - Quote Superluminal Replicant wrote: Came across one of those Elite pack LAVs today. It took 2 shots from proto forge to take it out, I was shocked when it didn't blow up on the first shot lol. What's worse is they are BPO's so you can spam it all day and not care, really makes me want an elite pack so I can get one of these Murder Taxis ..yeah depending on the lav ..saga...if it were an isk item would be 120-250 k isk that should take 2 shot ..if you do it right..one shot for the shield one for the rest....my chary could take a few more ..its a decent lav and worth the isk ...they're paying the cash for a cheap-infinite yier 1 lav ...just like std suit ,,,like the vanity bpos
Felix Faraday Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 25	Posted - 2013.05.21 01:53:00 - [17] - Quote Don't nerf them or take them away. I love to go LAV hunting. Of course, I specced into a decent swarm launcher. I saw a lot of Vehicles, and figured the logical thing would be go Anti-Vehicle. Seemed like such a simple solution to me. Not sure why other people don't get it. But that means you need to put your AR down. Can't have that now.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1058	Posted - 2013.05.21 01:56:00 - [18] - Quote Felix Faraday wrote: Don't nerf them or take them away. I love to go LAV hunting. Of course, I specced into a decent swarm launcher. I saw a lot of Vehicles, and figured the logical thing would be go Anti-Vehicle. Seemed like such a simple solution to me. Not sure why other people don't get it. But that means you need to put your AR down. Can't have that now. ^Playing the game correctly.
Piercing Serenity Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 336	Posted - 2013.05.21 02:04:00 - [19] - Quote @Morte: I only wanted militia LAVs to take the real hit, not people who have spent a lot of SP into that. If you can make a great LAV fit, more power to you. You shouldn't have that taken away. At any rate, fair enough. I'll look into some different options to take down these LAVs. Thanks for the feedback
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1441	Posted - 2013.05.21 02:04:00 - [20] - Quote Superluminal Replicant wrote: Came across one of those Elite pack LAVs today - Ishuhkone Watch Saga LAV (permanent). It took 2 shots from proto forge to take it out, I was shocked when it didn't blow up on the first shot lol. What's worse is they are BPO's so you can spam it all day and not care, really makes me want an elite pack so I can get one of these Murder Taxis Is that any different than my Gurista Saga? It costs me 92k ISK in modules and 2-3m SP to fit them, so it's not free as fitted. Playing Death Race 514 is the most fun I've had in months and is the best use of the Vehicle Uprgrade skills I bought for my dropship. I disagree with the poster further up in that I feel murder taxis are quite fun for both sides. In fact it's as exciting as being in the middle of a bullfight. The driver is the bull and the target is the matador. The bull tries to gore the matador and the matador tries to kill the bull with AV nades as he dodges and jumps over the bull. It is a beautiful ballet. You just need to learn to appreciate it. In fact even when I respec as the Proto Assautl AR the game demands, I'll quickly put some points back in Vehicle Upgrades so I can enjoy some murder taxi when shooting people in the face gets dull.

Den-tredje Baron The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 67	Posted - 2013.05.21 02:10:00 - [21] - Quote MOST !! lav's are fine as they are. If you spec into advanced lavs i have no problem at all that i have to spend 2-3 hacled AV's on you. But what's messed up here and apparently no one other than OP sees is that militai lav can take 27# as many hacked av grenades as a tank can !! Yes seen a previous youtube video by lowratehitman he throws 3 hacked AV grenades at a enemy soma and boom it's gone. Later he throws 2 same variant av grenades as a militia lav and first one only flinches of shields while second takes it down. SO come on the militia LAV never needed any kind of EHP buff it was fine where it was. In chromosome you couldn't expect to be any kind of a danger while being in a LAV. Now well blimet you can tank swarms like no tomorrow and just drive on. I've even seen guys thrown AV nades at the vehicles, the vehicles got the guy ate the AV and drove happily on. BUT !! do not touch logi lavs !! They are fine as they are !!. A logi LAV is meant to be there near the drontline and needs to have a big pool of EHP. All i'm asking for is militia LAV's to get back to where they where in chromosome. They where what a militia thing was something you didn't expect to survive in against advanced or proto stuff. Right now militia lavs are eating hacked av thrown in their face !!!
Rusty Shallows Black Jackals 78	Posted - 2013.05.21 02:17:00 - [22] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: 3)Remove free LAVs, and offer militia LAVs at low prices This! No rISK, no reward. Before the cash for BPO LAV comment. If it isn't Pay-to-Win issue then I don't care. CCP has to make money somewhere, this game can't actually be free or it will fail.
Skihids The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 1441	Posted - 2013.05.21 02:21:00 - [23] - Quote Rusty Shallows wrote: Piercing Serenity wrote: 3)Remove free LAVs, and offer militia LAVs at low prices This! No rISK, no reward. Before the cash for BPO LAV comment. If it isn't Pay-to-Win issue then I don't care. CCP has to make money somewhere, this game can't actually be free or it will fail. Remember, even if the chassis is BPO it costs a good deal of ISK for the proto mods that allow it to tank two EXO nades. It's a sporting risk on each side of the grill.
Felix Faraday Kirkinen Risk Control Caldari State 26	Posted - 2013.05.21 02:42:00 - [24] - Quote Den-tredje Baron wrote: Yes seen a previous youtube video by lowratehitman he throws 3 hacked AV grenades at a enemy soma and boom it's gone. Later he throws 2 same variant av grenades as a militia lav and first one only flinches of shields while second takes it down. See, the problem here is with the HAV, not the LAV. The HAV shouldn't die that easily. And most likely, it wasn't fitted properly anyways. I've only run into 1 or 2 really well fitted tanks, and they just shrugged off my Advanced Swarms like they were nothing. Nothing in this game should die in one hit to something that doesn't take a lot of SP and ISK to spec into. .
CharCharOdell Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 185	Posted - 2013.05.22 07:06:00 - [25] - Quote BOZ MR wrote: If you nerf tanks that much you have to deal with their LAVs. ADAPT OR DIE. Do not touch our non-mlt LAVS! that is all tankers have left. However, reducing mlt lava back to their original stats is approved. I invested millions to drive logi lava and I'll be damned if this vehicle is nerfed too BC I happen to be good at killing with it.
CharCharOdell Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 185	Posted - 2013.05.22 07:08:00 - [26] - Quote Den-tredje Baron wrote: MOST !! lav's are fine as they are. If you spec into advanced lavs i have no problem at all that i have to spend 2-3 hacled AV's on you. But what's messed up here and apparently no one other than OP sees is that militai lav can take 27# as many hacked av grenades as a tank can !! Yes seen a previous youtube video by lowratehitman he throws 3 hacked AV grenades at a enemy soma and boom it's gone. Later he throws 2 same variant av grenades as a militia lav and first one only flinches of shields while second takes it down. SO come on the militia LAV never needed any kind of EHP buff it was fine where it was. In chromosome you couldn't expect to be any kind of a danger while being in a LAV. Now well blimet you can tank swarms like no tomorrow and just drive on. I've even seen guys thrown AV nades at the vehicles, the vehicles got the guy ate the AV and drove happily on. BUT !! do not touch logi lavs !! They are fine as they are !!. A logi LAV is meant to be there near the drontline and needs to have a big pool of EHP. All i'm asking for is militia LAV's to get back to where they where in chromosome. They where what a militia thing was something you didn't expect to survive in against advanced or proto stuff. Right now militia lavs are eating hacked av thrown in their face !!! This
WyrmHero1945 SyNergy Gaming EoN. 302	Posted - 2013.05.22 07:15:00 - [27] - Quote Militia LAVs die with 1 AV grenade. I agree with the removal of militia BPO LAVs, I want them to be unique and not just easily spammed.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 1098	Posted - 2013.05.22 07:16:00 - [28] - Quote If the MLT LAVs suck, how many people do you think would actually care to spec into them and how many people who actually do will use them if they have to worry about a stupid blueberry hijacking it and treating it like a mobile trashcan because the MLT ones suck. MLT swarm launchers do a great job against MLT lavs and a couple of AV grenades do the job too. Hell, get someone with proximity mines and you'll be racking up kills and WP like it's nobody's business. (a few SP away from ADV proprieties and STD get the job done)
Dark Deviser XERCORE E X T E R M I N A T U S 3	Posted - 2013.05.22 07:21:00 - [29] - Quote ##DEATHRACE514 ##MURDERTAXIS ##ILOVELAVS'S ##GOAVNOOB
Dark Deviser XERCORE E X T E R M I N A T U S 3	Posted - 2013.05.22 07:22:00 - [30] - Quote #CANTTOUCHME

Yeva Kalsani Reckoners 93	Posted - 2013.05.22 07:43:00 - [31] - Quote Don't stand out in the open when you hear the engine of an LAV roar, get onto grounds where you can't easily get run over Let the AV people do their jobs Skill into AV if you want to get rid of them so badly The other dayGÇöand this is no exaggerationGÇöI took down something like ten LAVs and three militia tanks in one single pub Ambush match. It was insane. But awesome. Yes, I'm specced into Forge Guns. Millions of SP into it, in fact. What's a problem to you is an attraction for me. This vehicle madness and the murder taxis are giving me a lot of stuff to do. I've only been run over once since Uprising, and that one time was intentional because I wanted to suicide and get new ammo to blow up more LAVs and infantry.
Kekklian Noobatronic Goonfeet 47	Posted - 2013.05.22 07:52:00 - [32] - Quote Threads like this are so insanely stupid. You got ran over. Deal with it. Get some AV. It's not that hard of a concept. That's why it's there. Adapt or die!
omega 015 Reaper Galactic ROFL BROS 1	Posted - 2013.05.22 07:56:00 - [33] - Quote Superluminal Replicant wrote: Came across one of those Elite pack LAVs today - Ishuhkone Watch Saga LAV (permanent). It took 2 shots from proto forge to take it out, I was shocked when it didn't blow up on the first shot lol. What's worse is they are BPO's so you can spam it all day and not care, really makes me want an elite pack so I can get one of these Murder Taxis do it, it might have even been me driving the LAV.
Guinevere Bravo SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 221	Posted - 2013.05.22 08:07:00 - [34] - Quote The problem at the moment is that when you get run over you cant get revived so at the moment its infuriating people. CCP Need to fix that pronto.. Theres a couple of ways to deal with LAVs, one make the drivers hit box larger so you can shoot them out of the LAV more easily and lastly reduce the base HP on Millita vairants. Lastly if i get killed by an LAV, I spawn my same fit just with AV nades = Profit. (something i suggest everyone who is moaning in here do)


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