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Armor Tanking Viability

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Aeon Amadi Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 1404	Posted - 2013.05.17 10:47:00 - [1] - Quote The only real suits that have bonuses geared toward Armor Tanking are the Logistics suits and the Minmatar Assault (which isn't very good considering it's only a passive 1HP/sec repair). Armor Plating may give more HP when compared to shield extenders but in a First Person Shooter, where movement is key to survival, the movement speed penalties are atrocious. This is only compounded when used in tandem with suits that have lots of low slots that are already slow. While they have lower CPU requirements than Shield Extenders, they have they have similar/larger PG requirements. Armor Repairers are useful but again the suits that benefit the most from them are the Logistics and the Minmatar Assault - 5HP/sec is great considering that it's repairing even while taking damage but you're very likely to die before enough of your armor is repaired. Armor Plating only compounds this as the more armor you have, the longer it takes to repair - as do the skills involved which increase the Armor HP itself. Again, while requiring less CPU than Shield Modules, they have higher PG costs. Suffice to say, you might have more HP to survive the firefight but you're not going to be able to recover it efficiently and the negation to movement speed makes you an easier target to shoot at. Either one you choose, it's a double edged sword that eats up low slots. Now, Shield Extenders (as we all know) don't have any negative side-effects but they also have less of a bonus toward your HP. On the other hand however, there are modules that will reduce the delay at which your shields start recharging (at which it does so in large bursts) and skills that increase this effect. Further more, there are also modules which enhance regeneration, skills associated with it and -ALL- Assault Suits receive a bonus to this regeneration, even when it doesn't make sense. A good example of this is the Gallente Assault Suit which has a Shield Recharge bonus but only 120 shields. There's also not much you can really put in your Mid-Slots as it's either Shield Modules (omni tanking) or Damage Modules, which are hard on the CPU. Just as well, there's not many things to choose from when it comes to Armor Tanking - you can either choose to increase your HP and reduce your movement speed or trust in the very slow repair rate of Armor Repairers. Even Logistics, who are slower by nature, take a hit with this despite their bonuses. So, what I would like (and hopefully some other members of the community) is for the CPM to explore the viability of Armor Tanking and see if the rewards outweigh the benefits, as well as how it works with Dropsuits that were designed to Armor Tank. If it comes out poorly, perhaps some discussion to implement other modules and skills, such as the much appreciated Armor Honeycombing skill in Eve Online which reduces the Movement Speed penalty. Another good idea I heard from another member was to - instead of reducing movement speed - to reduce maximum stamina and/or stamina regeneration. TL;DR: CPM, please investigate Armor Tanking viability and if needed, work to implement new means to improve it.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1126	Posted - 2013.05.17 10:53:00 - [2] - Quote Caldari and Minmatar are shield tankers Gallente and Amarr should be armor tankers Problem is armor = movement speed so your screwed where as shield = no penalty but really it should be sig radius increase
Aeon Amadi Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 1404	Posted - 2013.05.17 10:59:00 - [3] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Caldari and Minmatar are shield tankers Gallente and Amarr should be armor tankers Problem is armor = movement speed so your screwed where as shield = no penalty but really it should be sig radius increase It's not just that though, Gallente/Amarr dropsuits lack any significant bonuses that affect Armor Tanking - besides the Logistics but that applies to all of the Logistics classes.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1126	Posted - 2013.05.17 11:19:00 - [4] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Caldari and Minmatar are shield tankers Gallente and Amarr should be armor tankers Problem is armor = movement speed so your screwed where as shield = no penalty but really it should be sig radius increase It's not just that though, Gallente/Amarr dropsuits lack any significant bonuses that affect Armor Tanking - besides the Logistics but that applies to all of the Logistics classes. With the assault they tend to have a bonus to weapons, really with EVE ships have 2 bonuses to weapons and the shp itself in the form of a bonus to its tank Essentially the suits should follow this
Doshneil Antaro SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 62	Posted - 2013.05.17 17:25:00 - [5] - Quote I mention a fix before in another forum but am to lazy to go find it. The fix is to make shield tanking have negatives. For starters, since shields need power, pg should be alot higher. Also, I believe they should affect movement in some way. Solution to this is shield extenders rob power from stamina and stamina recovery speeds. These two things would level the playing field and lead to more diverse suit builds, as people would move away from heavy hp stacking in liu of other mods. Off topic side note: damage mods need to be limited to one per suit, or at least have harsher cpu/pg requirments. They are the reason people stack so much hp in the first play, forcing many players down one of two suit builds. damage vs health. Balance the two and ingenuity would rise and we would be able to explore other ways to use our suits.
Aeon Amadi Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 1404	Posted - 2013.05.18 10:09:00 - [6] - Quote Doshneil Antaro wrote: I mention a fix before in another forum but am to lazy to go find it. The fix is to make shield tanking have negatives. For starters, since shields need power, pg should be alot higher. Also, I believe they should affect movement in some way. Solution to this is shield extenders rob power from stamina and stamina recovery speeds. These two things would level the playing field and lead to more diverse suit builds, as people would move away from heavy hp stacking in liu of other mods. Off topic side note: damage mods need to be limited to one per suit, or at least have harsher cpu/pg requirments. They are the reason people stack so much hp in the first play, forcing many players down one of two suit builds. damage vs health. Balance the two and ingenuity would rise and we would be able to explore other ways to use our suits. I had a similiar view on the Damage Mods but it becomes clear that they need to be left alone (for now) so long as there is such a small amount of choices for your Med-Slots, something that also makes Armor Tanking detrimental. Scan Range Amplifier (I think) Shield Extenders Shield Rechargers Damage Mods. Unfortunately, that's it. We need EWAR.
Spademan The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 80	Posted - 2013.05.18 20:52:00 - [7] - Quote The armour penalty.needs to be changed to a minus to stamina
Baal Omniscient L.O.T.I.S. RISE of LEGION 537	Posted - 2013.05.19 01:07:00 - [8] - Quote I run Minmatar Assault. I have 5 high slots and 2 low on my proto suit. And less CPU than any other assault class. AND less base HP. Don't you DARE try to tell me I can armor tank.
slypie11 Planetary Response Organisation 310	Posted - 2013.05.19 02:14:00 - [9] - Quote 2 words. Scrambler rifle. Everyone seems to at least want to use them, and they eat through shields but suck on armor. That alone might just make armor tanking viable
Aeon Amadi Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 1404	Posted - 2013.05.19 09:20:00 - [10] - Quote slypie11 wrote: 2 words. Scrambler rifle. Everyone seems to at least want to use them, and they eat through shields but suck on armor. That alone might just make armor tanking viable There's actually a thread from a player who says that there's little difference in the shield/armor damage.

Ryuichi Kakihara Rautaleijona Gentlemen's Agreement 2	Posted - 2013.05.19 18:35:00 - [11] - Quote Can't say for certainty that there's a real difference, but I am eating caldari assaults easily with it, and it seems to take as many shots to go through their armor as it does through their shield. Still thats just my experience, and I haven't measured this.
Zero Avis D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION 6	Posted - 2013.05.19 19:19:00 - [12] - Quote Armor Tanking is a Viable way to play there are a number of benefits for running armor over shields Armor>Shield Pros 1 Higher total HP 2 Ability to fit damage mods with out HP loss 3 Reduced damaged from majority of the most used weapons (AR, Scrambler, Shotgun) 4 Bigger buffer for Logi 5 Draws less CPU 6 Flux grenades are worthless against armor Armor>Shield Cons 1 Slower 2 Slower self rep 3 Weaker vs Locus, HMG, SMG, Massdriver, and Flaylock 4 No bonuses from assault suit skills The speed loss isn't really that big of a deal I have always run armor tank my lack of speed has never caused me to die. And if your in a good group you should have a logi with a repper which solves the slower rep and has the benefit of letting you tank way more damage then any shield could without running away. They also already said they are adding more Armor tanking mods Ferroscale plates having less HP but no speed loss and the reactive plates which will have reps on them.
slypie11 Planetary Response Organisation 310	Posted - 2013.05.19 20:37:00 - [13] - Quote Zero Avis wrote: Armor Tanking is a Viable way to play there are a number of benefits for running armor over shields Armor>Shield Pros 1 Higher total HP 2 Ability to fit damage mods with out HP loss 3 Reduced damaged from majority of the most used weapons (AR, Scrambler, Shotgun) 4 Bigger buffer for Logi 5 Draws less CPU 6 Flux grenades are worthless against armor Armor>Shield Cons 1 Slower 2 Slower self rep 3 Weaker vs Locus, HMG, SMG, Massdriver, and Flaylock 4 No bonuses from assault suit skills The speed loss isn't really that big of a deal I have always run armor tank my lack of speed has never caused me to die. And if your in a good group you should have a logi with a repper which solves the slower rep and has the benefit of letting you tank way more damage then any shield could without running away. They also already said they are adding more Armor tanking mods Ferroscale plates having less HP but no speed loss and the reactive plates which will have reps on them. Actually, the AR and shotty do more damage against armor, although it is slight. So that is the AR, shotty, locus, HMG, SMG, Massdriver, Flaylock, Plasma launcher, and sniper rifle that do more damage to armor.
Zero Avis D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION 6	Posted - 2013.05.20 00:24:00 - [14] - Quote slypie11 wrote: Actually, the AR and shotty do more damage against armor, although it is slight. So that is the AR, shotty, locus, HMG, SMG, Massdriver, Flaylock, Plasma launcher, and sniper rifle that do more damage to armor. Actually sir you are wrong go check out the efficiency numbers yourself 110% shields 90% armor And the Sniper does even 100/100 just like the forge
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 810	Posted - 2013.05.20 09:16:00 - [15] - Quote Well you kinda answered your own question there. Assault Suits Shield Tank (The +5% shield recharge bonus) Logistic Suits Armor Tank (The +1HP/sec armor regen) these bonuses are applied regardless of what race the suit is, which makes Caldari and Minmatar Logistics as well as Amarr and Gallente Assaults, kinda stupid. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=817652#post817652 Armor tanking needs to be viable on the appropriate suits by giving them proper bonuses based of the RACE and not the suit TYPE. I will admit it is a massive improvement over what we used to have though.


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