DUST Search - (Feedback) Shield Tanks

CCP Blam! wrote:

Hi guys,

Thanks for all your input. Here are some quick points:
- I'm looking at adjusting PG and CPU values, however this is a bit of a big effort so keep that in mind since this will also include re-evaluating PG/CPU costs of all vehicle modules as well and this of course will require an extensive amount of testing.
- we are aware of the issues with turrets. this is going to require some code support and some further feature development to get that out there for you. We're looking at what would be a reasonable deployment plan for you on our end since streaming content (meshes, value changes) is a completely different thing than uploading code changes.
- The Gallente HAVs are intentionally quicker and nimbler than the Caldari HAVs as this is a racial characteristic between the two races. Initially, this was the wrong way around because of an optimization to the physics wheel configuration on these HAVs. Don't forget, at the end of the day that armor tanking is going to reduce the propulsion of an HAV, something which the Gallente HAV is more aligned to.

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Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 134	Posted - 2013.05.14 10:58:00 - [1] - Quote So, a CCP Blam! made this little announcement: CCP Blam! wrote: Hi guys, Thanks for all your input. Here are some quick points: - I'm looking at adjusting PG and CPU values, however this is a bit of a big effort so keep that in mind since this will also include re-evaluating PG/CPU costs of all vehicle modules as well and this of course will require an extensive amount of testing. - we are aware of the issues with turrets. this is going to require some code support and some further feature development to get that out there for you. We're looking at what would be a reasonable deployment plan for you on our end since streaming content (meshes, value changes) is a completely different thing than uploading code changes. - The Gallente HAVs are intentionally quicker and nimbler than the Caldari HAVs as this is a racial characteristic between the two races. Initially, this was the wrong way around because of an optimization to the physics wheel configuration on these HAVs. Don't forget, at the end of the day that armor tanking is going to reduce the propulsion of an HAV, something which the Gallente HAV is more aligned to. If it means that you can actually fit a Tank with modules meant for an HAV, I'll be happy. However, the third part has me very worried. At the moment, here is how it works out: 1. Armor gives far better resistances than Shield Tanks. The Surge Shield Hardener offers 30% Shield Resistance for 10 seconds with a 30 seconds cooldown. The Carapace Armor Hardener offers 25% for 60 seconds with a 15 second cooldown. That is a 1:3 Ratio versus a 4:1 Ratio. 2. Armor Plates give greater amount of health than Shield Extenders do. I can't log on at the moment, but I am 95% sure this is the case. 3. The Shield Booster heals less faster while the Armor Repairer heals for much more but over a period of time. The Shield user can activate when they are almost dead and get the benefit while the Armor Tanks activates it when they are at half life and heal for a huge portion. So Shield Tanks are not as sturdy as Armor Tanks. Just looking at the numbers, it is easy to see. But here is why Blam!'s statement really scares me; the Gallente Madrugar is supposed to be faster and more maneuverable than the Caldari Gunnlogi. So it is intended that the Tank that has more health and better resistance is the tank that is also meant... to be faster? Before Uprising, I had both a Gunnlogi and a Madrugar. The Gunnlogi needed to use it's speed to survive. They would hit and run away. The Madrugar was the exact opposite. It sat there like a teabag and just took everything on the chin. When it needed to leave, it needed to have left 2 seconds ago. The Gunnlogi could just zip out, Madrugar could not. So why would anyone ever go with Shield Tanks if they are weaker, less tough, and slower? There seems to be a problem in the kitchen.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 396	Posted - 2013.05.14 11:19:00 - [2] - Quote they are either saying one of two things which are 1. shield tanks are adding to much tank to their HAV and its slowing shield HAVs down in which case im going to stare you down and call you a liar 2. gallente are meant to be faster the caldari as a fractional trait which is also a bold face lie. just go check every dropsuit and you can see they are in fact are not the fastest and share movement speed with caldari suits as well as ever other vehicles. either case you are insulting shield HAVs users and its not funny.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 134	Posted - 2013.05.14 11:24:00 - [3] - Quote ladwar wrote: they are either saying one of two things which are 1. shield tanks are adding to much tank to their HAV and its slowing shield HAVs down in which case im going to stare you down and call you a liar 2. gallente are meant to be faster the caldari as a fractional trait which is also a bold face lie. just go check every dropsuit and you can see they are in fact are not the fastest and share movement speed with caldari suits as well as ever other vehicles. either case you are insulting shield HAVs users and its not funny. Aye, it is silly. Previously, it was weaker but faster or stronger but much slower. The apple or oranges thing (which never really existed because Armor Tanks were flat better anyway) is totally gone. You can be faster and harder to kill or... you can choose not to be.
Telleth DUST University Ivy League 5	Posted - 2013.05.14 12:14:00 - [4] - Quote I think what they might be trying to say is that the gallente base stats for speed are meant to be higher since that first plate module is going to give a 25% reduction in speed. So say if a caldari hav goes at 80 units, a gallente hav with no modules will go at 100 units. Once fitted out, a caldari hav will go at 80 units still, but the gallente will be down to 75 units.
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 135	Posted - 2013.05.15 05:13:00 - [5] - Quote Telleth wrote: I think what they might be trying to say is that the gallente base stats for speed are meant to be higher since that first plate module is going to give a 25% reduction in speed. So say if a caldari hav goes at 80 units, a gallente hav with no modules will go at 100 units. Once fitted out, a caldari hav will go at 80 units still, but the gallente will be down to 75 units. Fair enough but that doesn't change the fact that the stronger, healthier tank is only 5 units slower. The "let's get the heck outta here!" nature of the Gunnlogi was the only thing that was keeping it not being completely worthless, IMO.
Tankin Tarkus Quafe Runners 7	Posted - 2013.05.15 05:21:00 - [6] - Quote dont forget shield tanks have a resistance against explosives which is what most AV weapons are and they can always passively recharge their shields which is why i think they have the weaker reppers but with the way AV is atm neither tank can afford to be slow
Telleth DUST University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2013.05.16 03:59:00 - [7] - Quote The units I threw out were hypothetical, but I have noticed my madrugar going quite a bit faster nowadays. I think a gunloggi should be fast enough to run out of an orbital if it has a little momentum to it. Will make it comparable to a madrugar's ability to sit there and tank it if it's refreshes are ready and you hit the armor repper quick enough. I may be a bit off, never used a gunloggi, can a decent fit actually sit in the open under one without running or blowing up?
Harpyja DUST University Ivy League 46	Posted - 2013.05.16 04:03:00 - [8] - Quote Telleth wrote: The units I threw out were hypothetical, but I have noticed my madrugar going quite a bit faster nowadays. I think a gunloggi should be fast enough to run out of an orbital if it has a little momentum to it. Will make it comparable to a madrugar's ability to sit there and tank it if it's refreshes are ready and you hit the armor repper quick enough. I may be a bit off, never used a gunloggi, can a decent fit actually sit in the open under one without running or blowing up? Nope. Each time I'm caught in the open and not moving, I'm dead. If I already have max momentum, it's down to luck if I make it out or not.
CharCharOdell Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 82	Posted - 2013.05.17 06:56:00 - [9] - Quote Telleth wrote: The units I threw out were hypothetical, but I have noticed my madrugar going quite a bit faster nowadays. I think a gunloggi should be fast enough to run out of an orbital if it has a little momentum to it. Will make it comparable to a madrugar's ability to sit there and tank it if it's refreshes are ready and you hit the armor repper quick enough. I may be a bit off, never used a gunloggi, can a decent fit actually sit in the open under one without running or blowing up? even in chromosome, you couldnt fit a DECENT gunlogi and have it live through an orbital. maybe, if u had all skills maxed out and 2 heavy azeos with 3 surges, but not otherwise.
Tankin Tarkus Quafe Runners 8	Posted - 2013.05.17 07:21:00 - [10] - Quote my corp leader's sagaris in last build could take an orbital 9k shield no shield amps/hardeners or atleast he said it could

CharCharOdell 5o1st 82	Posted - 2013.05.17 07:31:00 - [11] - Quote Tankin Tarkus wrote: my corp leader's sagaris in last build could take an orbital 9k shield no shield amps/hardeners or atleast he said it could he lied to you. my 4000 shield gunlogi could take a hit of an orbital standing still, technically, IF i put on the nitros and bolted the second i saw blue light. tanks dont just passively surive orbitals unless that had 13000 HP
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 148	Posted - 2013.05.17 07:45:00 - [12] - Quote Glad to see that this is not dead. I am finally getting a full hang around Tanks again. I have to say that the Madrugar is much faster. I actually got hit with an Orbital today. Before if I was target with an Orbital, my recourse of action was literally hope that I had at least 2 hardeners going with 70% HP and/or my Repairer going. From a dead stop, it would take so long to start moving that I would not escape the blast. The Orbital that hit me today was different. I managed to avoid maybe 20 or 30% of its damage by turning my foot into a brick o' lead when I was at a dead stop. Now, it feels like Orbital's AoE of Mega Death has been reduced but it is clear that my Madrugar is accelerating and moving faster. I was using an 1800 mm plate as well. Again, the Tank with more HP and more resistances is the one that moves faster? Considering how much more flimsy my Tanks are now than from Chromosome, I can only imagine how Shield Tankers are holding up. Be well
Infamous Erich Inf4m0us ROFL BROS 5	Posted - 2013.05.17 09:37:00 - [13] - Quote Shield tank here, I used to have proto shield tank and I had about 6-7k shield with 3x damage mods and I was able to almost sit through the whole orbital but I had like 2 surges and a ward amp, atleast now they nerf the hell out of the ob now a sica can survive it lol
Joseph Ridgeson WarRavens 149	Posted - 2013.05.17 09:43:00 - [14] - Quote So they did nerf the Orbital, eh? I knew I should have taken so much more damage than I did. Tell me, how does the Tankiness of Gunnlogis feel now that they are slower?
Tankin Tarkus Quafe Runners 9	Posted - 2013.05.17 16:49:00 - [15] - Quote both tanks are weaker without the pg skill neither one can pull off what they could in last build
EXASTRA INVICTAS Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 3	Posted - 2013.05.17 18:01:00 - [16] - Quote ladwar wrote: they are either saying one of two things which are 1. shield tanks are adding to much tank to their HAV and its slowing shield HAVs down in which case im going to stare you down and call you a liar 2. gallente are meant to be faster the caldari as a fractional trait which is also a bold face lie. just go check every dropsuit and you can see they are in fact are not the fastest and share movement speed with caldari suits as well as ever other vehicles. either case you are insulting shield HAVs users and its not funny. Yes, please tell CCP that they are wrong that the Gallente are faster than Caldari. Feel free. But you're wrong, because the Gallente are always faster than Caldari. Gallente use armor (which can slow the tank down when extending the armor amount) and prefer blasters (evident by the Enforcer HAV bonus) which are very short range, high power output weapons. Gallente NEED the speed in order to get into their engagement range. Caldari use railguns and missiles from a distance, they don't need the speed. Now, granted, I think the shield tanks in this game feel a little lackluster, but that's the skinny.
Forgotten Abyss The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 0	Posted - 2013.05.24 05:34:00 - [17] - Quote I sort of wish they would bring back the old tanks. I used to just sit there with my madrugar and fight trying to make sure no squad with AVs gets on me. now i feel like i just go into battle to take the focus off the objectives for a while so they can kill me and move on unless i just run away to red line and hide. I liked the old build where then tanks actually seemed like this threat that a squad will try and deal with so it causes no problems. now one guy with AVs gets on you and you are hitting your reppers running for your life. I'm not sure if i just haven't found the right build and i'm not sure how Shields are handling but imo armor tanks seem almost useless in the uprising build. if anyone has a good armor build a message would be nice.


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