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Stephen Rao
Verboten XXI
7
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Posted - 2013.05.13 18:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
+++As a disclaimer, I currently run a Caldari Medium frame for shield tanking. There is no way I would invest into anything higher than Basic Armor Plates with the current state of things+++
I've always been puzzled how the Armour Plates are the only module with a drawback. I've heard some explain this as weight slowing you down, but in the far future why do we make things stronger by making them heavier? Why can't we just use more durable material that isn't made out of concrete? (better material would explain the increased cost in ISK as well as the increased CPU/PG strain on the suit).
As it seems counter-productive to complain about the speed penalty (as I'm sure it is a balancing factor), I'll focus on the way that it scales as I think it is absolutely absurde. The basic module grants you 65 hp to armor and a 3% speed reduction. This module is, in my opinion, the BEST armor plate you can purchase. While the Advanced and Proto armor plates grant more HP, they also take an inordinate amount of speed with them. Here's the current spread between HP gained, Speed Reduction, and SP required to use these modules:
Module________________Armor HP__Speed Decrease__SP Investment Basic Armor Plates_________65________3%____________55,970 Advanced Armor Plates_____85________5%___________242,510 Complex Amor Plates______115_______10%___________932,760
So while Complex Plates offer less than 2x the protection of Basic Plates, they reduce your speed by more than 3x!! Advanced Plates aren't any better, giving you 1.2x more protection, again at the cost of a 2x speed reduction on the Basic Plates.
While using a Complex Armor Plate does save you a module slot, it costs you almost 1mil SP to get a massive speed reduction that is far worse than 2 Basic Armor Plates in armor granted, speed penalty, SP investment and ISK cost.
My suggestion would be to lower the speed penalty to 3%, 4% and 5% (for Standard, Advanced and Proto respectively), or even have the speed penalty decrease by going 5%, 4%, 3% as you should be rewarded for upgrading your gear.
Just my 200 ISK |
Stephen Rao
Verboten XXI
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 18:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Caldaris don't need any armor plates, you guys are good enough tanks as it is :( I stated what I used so that people didn't think I was some Gallante whining about my Mods, I WANT more variety in this game. |
Stephen Rao
Verboten XXI
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 18:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kesi Raae Kaae wrote:What about armour plates giving a penalty to strafe speed only but leaving sprint speed unaffected? I'm not sure how they'd explain this in the fluff (slow while walking but fine while running seems awkward).
Kesi Raae Kaae wrote:Or they give a stamina penalty?
Or have many different kinds of plates giving different penalties for more variety? Both are better solutions than the current penalties as they stand. |
Stephen Rao
Verboten XXI
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 18:42:00 -
[4] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Stephen Rao wrote:BL4CKST4R wrote:Caldaris don't need any armor plates, you guys are good enough tanks as it is :( I stated what I used so that people didn't think I was some Gallante whining about my Mods, I WANT more variety in this game. It would just create a greater gap when it comes to sacrificing speed for defense, the Caldari will have more total HP than any other class for less of a speed sacrifice. Except... not? It doesn't have more module slots, PG or CPU than any other suit and has the same eHP as the Gallante suit and less than the Amarr suit. The reason Shield Tankers are the only thing you see is because Shields have a higher regen rate than Armor (for free!) and the modules that extend the shields have no drawbacks (other than CPU and PG usage). If Gallante suits could put more than one Complex Armor mod on without needing a wheelchair to get around you might actually see viable armor tankers. |
Stephen Rao
Verboten XXI
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 19:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
BL4CKST4R wrote:Yea so as a Caldari you will keep your amazing shield capabilities while extending them into the Armor tanking realm. Except I can barely fit standard mods in my Low Slots after staking my Proto High Slots and Advanced Weapons/Equipement. I'd also have to invest 1mil SP into using Armor Modules. In fact, the system as-is is more beneficial to Caldari as they are less likely to use multiple Armor Plates (because of less low slots), and as such can take the speed reduction with less drawbacks. It is the Armor races that want to stack multiples of these modules that are the real ones loosing out.
BL4CKST4R wrote:On the other hand for races that depend on armor we will get to finally wear a good armor plate but we will still suck with shields, therefore a Caldari can have really good shields, while wearing the same armor plate as a Armor race, what this means is that the Caldari will still be better at taking hits without sacrificing as much speed as another class for the SAME effect. There's nothing stoping the Armor races from using Complex Shield Extenders, and as I said Caldari suit's eHP is the same or less than the Gallante or Amarr suits. So with the same modules available, everyone is still playing on the same field.
BL4CKST4R wrote:The only way this will be viable is if any of the races that depend on armor get a passive armor regen, while Shield classes don't; or give armor races a -X% reduction to armor penalties. And CPU/PG is so easy to counteract, but there is nothing to fix speed penalties. The Cladari have less starting Armor and less low slots, so even if buffing their weakness (armor) instead of their strength (shields) was a better choice, Gallante and Amarr would still do it better.
BL4CKST4R wrote:Armor races = Gallente and Amarr. Where did I say Caldari = armor? I stated what my main character used so that people didn't think I was trying to OP armor modules, you seem to think everyone is out for only themselves... |
Stephen Rao
Verboten XXI
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 19:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:I expect the right solution is to add the proper downside to the shields, like a larger sig radius or even maybe a larger hit box if that's possible within the engine. That is an option, but my issue is with the way the penalty scales. There is no incentive to go to higher levels of Armor Plating as you'll be slowed down more than what you currently have.
As it stands the fact that 2 Basics are superior in every way to 1 Complex is a factor only held by armor plating modules. Pretty much everything else has a minor increase (about 1.5x) from Standard to advanced, and a large increase (about 3x) from Standard to Proto. And those modules don't have any drawbacks! |
Stephen Rao
Verboten XXI
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 19:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:Lowering the penalty to 0% for basic, 0% for advanced, and finally 0% for complex would be the best way to balance armor plates against shield extenders. Just the fact that they share a slot with armor repairers and dont passively repair at 20/s should be enough. While I agree, there are equipment (Repair Tools and Nanohives) that only repair armour. While I think the speed penalty is over the top, I kept it in my suggestion as I figured it was part of the balancing factor for armor. I'm all for getting rid of it all together, but I figured giving a suggested tweak to the system was better than doing away with it all together.
@ I-Shayz-I: Exactly, you get it |
Stephen Rao
Verboten XXI
7
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Posted - 2013.05.13 21:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
ZDub 303 wrote:No matter what, I feel like complex modules should be MORE efficient than basic modules for buff per penalty.
If we kept with the 3% move penalty / 65 armor you're looking at 0.046% move penalty per armor point... At which point advanced should be like 0.035% and complex at 0.03%...
So.. Basic, 65 Armor - 3% move penalty Complex, 115 Armor - 3.45% move penalty.
That way, it is never more efficient to run basic > complex. Something like this. I kept the numbers rounded in my example for simplicity, but the penalty numbers definitely need to be re-worked.
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Stephen Rao
Verboten XXI
7
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Posted - 2013.05.14 01:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:The incentive is that you get more armor. This seems simple to me. Yes the ratio of Armor to speed reduction decreases, but when you have limited slots and want maximum armor, well, you go for the big plates. Actually, as it stands, no one uses armor tanking. Kinda why this thread exists...
Ignoring the fact that speed is as much a defensive stat as raw HP is really naive. |
Stephen Rao
Verboten XXI
10
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Posted - 2013.05.14 12:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
Full Metal Kitten wrote:Gallente armor tanker checking in.
Please add Armor Plate Profficiency skill. Speed penalty reduction 10% per skill level. For Shield Extenders, add 3, 5, 10 percent scan profile penalty respectively and a corresponding Shield Extender Proficiency skill. Scan profile penalty reduction 10% per skill level. I like this idea (as it fixes some of the Shield vs Armor, and Armor vs Speed issues). However with the number of skill % that don't do what they say they do, it might be better to try to fix the plates directly |
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Stephen Rao
Verboten XXI
10
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Posted - 2013.05.15 02:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:There's already been a thread on this. But, as we've had no reaction from CCP dudes and dudettes, I recap some options here. All great suggestions!
Other than the thread I linked I haven't seen any others (recently), but I'm fairly new to the forums. Has there been any talk from CCP that they're even looking at re-balancing Armor Plates? |
Stephen Rao
Verboten XXI
12
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Posted - 2013.05.21 13:35:00 -
[12] - Quote
Edited OP to contain some good statements generated through conversation.
Has there been any word on the ferroscale plates other than the concept? Will we see them Soon^tm, or are they a ways away? |
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