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Noc Tempre
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Negative-Feedback
1497
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Posted - 2013.05.11 17:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
This isn't the damn CPM's job. You literally should be banned from having internal discussions about weapon balance. Do it as Ironwolf, sure. But not as CPM. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1497
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Posted - 2013.05.11 17:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:This isn't the damn CPM's job. You literally should be banned from having internal discussions about weapon balance. Do it as Ironwolf, sure. But not as CPM. Cough* Single point feedback to show to CCP about the TAR instead of several dozen scrambled in 20 different forum sections.
Not CPM's job. If CCP asked you to do this they have put you in the middle and you should refuse. If they want the feedback, they should make a sticky. If you want the feedback to talk about it in the meeting, you are supporting mission creep and abusing your position to make critical decisions behind closed doors. Weapon balance is never NDA material. If you feel this is something CCP *should* be making a thread over, but isn't, then you should be pressuring CCP, not stepping into their vacant role. |
Noc Tempre
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Negative-Feedback
1498
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Posted - 2013.05.11 17:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
Medic 1879 wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:This isn't the damn CPM's job. You literally should be banned from having internal discussions about weapon balance. Do it as Ironwolf, sure. But not as CPM. Cough* Single point feedback to show to CCP about the TAR instead of several dozen scrambled in 20 different forum sections. Not CPM's job. If CCP asked you to do this they have put you in the middle and you should refuse. If they want the feedback, they should make a sticky. If you want the feedback to talk about it in the meeting, you are supporting mission creep and abusing your position to make critical decisions behind closed doors. Weapon balance is never NDA material. If you feel this is something CCP *should* be making a thread over, but isn't, then you should be pressuring CCP, not stepping into their vacant role. So he makes a thread to find out the opinions on something to try and help CCP and thats wrong? Yes CCP should be more talkative but if the CPM did nothing you can bet people would be calling for their heads. Damned if you do and damned if you dont.
Doing it as a community member is okay. Doing it as a CPM is not. Through IRC he said the purpose is not to make a thread to leave for devs to peruse, it is to poll the community to astroturf his opinions where he plans to talk about it behind closed doors. I am NOT okay with "volunteers" unilaterally trying to influence the numbers of the game. Their purpose is a focus group for NDA materials such as 5 year roadmaps to make sure they have the right things prioritized. Even considering talking about minute details like "tac rifle balance" is downright asinine. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1498
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Posted - 2013.05.11 17:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
Noc there comes a point where your feedback is more destructive and unhelpful, this is that time. I am just trying to help feed CCP the community's thoughts without doing so much massive work on my end.
It is destructive to your goal of power creep. It is helpful to the long term health of this community for after your appointed term ends we still must live with the consequences of your actions. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1501
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Posted - 2013.05.11 17:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Hey noc and telc, if you guys want CCP to nerf the Tac AR without any considerations to anything people have said here at all I would be all for it. :D
Don't conflate addressing your misuse of the CPM seat with no care for the TAR. It is because I support every weapon that I don't want the CPM to try and filter which opinions get merit. Leave that to the game designers who are paid to do such things. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1504
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Posted - 2013.05.11 18:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
Noc there comes a point where your feedback is more destructive and unhelpful, this is that time. I am just trying to help feed CCP the community's thoughts without doing so much massive work on my end.
It is destructive to your goal of power creep. It is helpful to the long term health of this community for after your appointed term ends we still must live with the consequences of your actions. Fine then here's some homework, find me all the comments on uprising's TAR, you have until monday shanghai time. I want extended feedback, comment banter, thread links, history of they players other types of issues involving the use of the weapon.
That is an admiral thing for a community member to want to do. Would make a nice thread on the forums. Perhaps CCP should make one and sticky it? But doing it as research for YOU to take a "community consensus" into a private discussion with CCP is simply EVIL. It deprives the community and CCP of the direct customer-designer interaction. If CCP asked you to do this we will support you telling them "NO". If this is your own initiative, then you have to at least acknowledge that you are reaching for power you should not have. Yes you are doing good. Yes you have good intentions. But your term will end, and soon, and there is no guarantee the next person in your seat will share your integrity. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1504
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Posted - 2013.05.11 18:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Hey noc and telc, if you guys want CCP to nerf the Tac AR without any considerations to anything people have said here at all I would be all for it. :D Don't conflate addressing your misuse of the CPM seat with no care for the TAR. It is because I support every weapon that I don't want the CPM to try and filter which opinions get merit. Leave that to the game designers who are paid to do such things. Stop off topic posting. Stop trying to silence the community. Stop trying to tell me how to do your job.
Not silencing the community. This thread would be 110% okay if it was a community thread. Instead YOU made it a CPM issue, and I must call you on it. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1504
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Posted - 2013.05.11 18:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tiel Syysch wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
Bottom line CPM is not trying to balance anything, CPM is trying to show CCP there is a need for balance.
The fact that you are trying to single out a weapon as needing balance is you trying to balance something. You may not be handing CCP numbers specifically, but you are calling for something to be done, and using your role as CPM to do that is frankly bullshit in my opinion. If CCP wants a thread, they are fully capable of making one themselves (see: all the stickies in general discussion and the SP cap thread from a while back). For you to be leveraging your behind-closed-doors time with CCP to balance individual pieces of the game is unfair to others. Members of the CPM have already shown that they either don't play much or don't specialize broadly/deeply enough to have an understanding of how particular items work in which case I wouldn't trust them with being able to separate legitimate from biased feedback coming from the community, while other CPM members have shown a pervasive bias toward other members of the community and would gladly "ruin" items they felt would hurt people they didn't like, in which case the CPM being involved in any hidden balance discussions would be detrimental to the game for the sake of an individual's personal vendetta. I'm all fine for you to be trying to gather info as a player, but to be using the CPM in the way you have only makes it look like these discussions are happening away from the community, and I am not a fan of the road this is going down. The CPM members, even collectively, are not equipped with the knowledge necessary to make legitimate calls for balance.
Well said. CCP gave you a list of items to discuss. TAC AR was on it. We have your back when you tell them "Tough, CPM can't help you with that; make a sticky in feedback". Because honestly, you no one could do that task but CCP and you risk letting them turn you into scapegoats. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1506
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Posted - 2013.05.11 18:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
This is something that CCP asked you to discuss that they were WRONG for asking you. Inform them the best way to get feedback is for them to make a sticky. There is nothing you can do if they aren't willing to take the right steps. Don't embrace power creep, and don't let CCP play a blame game. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1509
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Posted - 2013.05.11 18:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
It's rather important to note the limitations of the CPM so both the community and CCP aren't disappointed. This is called "managing expectations" business 101 stuff. The CPM cannont be involved in individual weapon balance, and shame on CCP for making them feel they should be charged with leading the discussions on that.
Edit: As a compromise, since this thread now exists, CCP should sticky it. Meet the CPM halfway.
The TAC rifle is fine, the glitchy netcode and lack of rivals for the same role are causing more problems that no number change could fix. They could only break it by looking at the TAR in isolation. |
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