DUST Search - A desperate message to CCP, from a veteran dropship pilot.

Serimos Haeraven wrote:

Yeva Kalsani wrote:

^ DAU/2 Assault Forge Gun, clip size 4 shots, with FG Operation skill level 5 it charges shots in under 2 seconds, and with a complex damage modifier and level 3-4 proficiency you're looking at something like 1600 damage per shot. That's 6400 damage in less than 8 seconds, less if you miss one of those shots, but if you run FG full time you have to learn how to lead shots in order to hit infantry and Dropships are a much bigger target than infantry, meaning practice in leading shots nets you all 4 hits.

This is why I argue that Dropships need a buff.

Either dropships need a buff or those Assault FG's need a rate of fire nerf, but I'm sure if they nerf the Assault Forge Gun's rate of fire there will be complaints everywhere as to why they can't **** vehicles like they used to. Being a threat is acceptable, but if you're a good pilot who does everything possible to avoid being hit, and still get taken out in a few seconds because of the ridiculous fire rate those things can have, there's not much else you can do. And like everyone has stated here, each loss of a Dropship (as long as it's a good pilot who has good vehicle modules in their High/Low slots) is about 1 mil, and there is simply no room for profit of any-kind with this unbalance in both infantry/vehicle dmg capabilities, and the economy for how much DS's cost compared to the FG's that take them out so easy. They also give too much incentive for killing people, while not giving any for doing anything else BUT kill others. This creates an unattractive push from being a pilot, since no real gain can be earned from doing so. But as many pilots in here have stated, we do it because it supports the team, regardless of points or money. (But there needs to be changes to this A.S.A.P)


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Yeva Kalsani Reckoners 49	Posted - 2013.05.11 06:22:00 - [1] - Quote The problem are not the Forge Guns, the problem is that the dropships are made of paper. I am specced into FG, and I wish they made Dropships as tough as HAVs. Seriously, it would only be fair. I don't think it would be unbalanced, currently, because Dropships do not have the weaponry to outclass a tank, nor do the pilots get nearly enough WP for their efforts. Nerf to Assault FG's speed or range would be silly, because that's what makes it a useful anti-infantry weapon and area denial weapon against HAVs. That they take Dropships out of the sky in 5 seconds is the result of the Dropships being built to suck. Please, if anything, ask them to finally make Dropships better. I don't care if they've cut the prices, they're still way overpriced and demand too much SP investment for what they do right now, IMHO. I want to see more Dropships that don't fall out of the sky as soon as a FG user looks at them funny.
Yeva Kalsani Reckoners 49	Posted - 2013.05.11 06:26:00 - [2] - Quote Card Drunook wrote: As to people saying that they are too weak, I just have to say you're doing it wrong. A dropships defense is it's mobility, if you're getting shot down a lot it's because you're ALLOWING yourself to be shot. In real life helicopters stay alive not by being invulnerable to harm but simply by getting out of harms way. DUST works the same way. HAVs already have to run from AFG, SL, and Proto AV grenade spam. Even the GOOD ones. Dropships are too weak for what they cost the player using them. They're like flying LAVs with more seats. You can talk about their speed all day long, but with fast FGs like the Assault type or the officer version, or Proto Swarms, they're turned into junk in a matter of seconds. The pilots have no time to react. What should they do, be flying out of range the entire match? Play floating spawn point?
Yeva Kalsani Reckoners 50	Posted - 2013.05.11 09:17:00 - [3] - Quote ^ DAU/2 Assault Forge Gun, clip size 4 shots, with FG Operation skill it charges shots in under 2 seconds, and with a complex damage modifier and level 3-4 proficiency you're looking at something like 1600 damage per shot. That's 6400 damage in less than 8 seconds, less if you miss one of those shots, but if you run FG full time you have to learn how to lead shots in order to hit infantry and Dropships are a much bigger target than infantry, meaning practice in leading shots nets you all 4 hits. This is why I argue that Dropships need a buff.
Yeva Kalsani Reckoners 50	Posted - 2013.05.11 15:20:00 - [4] - Quote Serimos Haeraven wrote: Yeva Kalsani wrote: ^ DAU/2 Assault Forge Gun, clip size 4 shots, with FG Operation skill level 5 it charges shots in under 2 seconds, and with a complex damage modifier and level 3-4 proficiency you're looking at something like 1600 damage per shot. That's 6400 damage in less than 8 seconds, less if you miss one of those shots, but if you run FG full time you have to learn how to lead shots in order to hit infantry and Dropships are a much bigger target than infantry, meaning practice in leading shots nets you all 4 hits. This is why I argue that Dropships need a buff. Either dropships need a buff or those Assault FG's need a rate of fire nerf, but I'm sure if they nerf the Assault Forge Gun's rate of fire there will be complaints everywhere as to why they can't **** vehicles like they used to. Being a threat is acceptable, but if you're a good pilot who does everything possible to avoid being hit, and still get taken out in a few seconds because of the ridiculous fire rate those things can have, there's not much else you can do. And like everyone has stated here, each loss of a Dropship (as long as it's a good pilot who has good vehicle modules in their High/Low slots) is about 1 mil, and there is simply no room for profit of any-kind with this unbalance in both infantry/vehicle dmg capabilities, and the economy for how much DS's cost compared to the FG's that take them out so easy. They also give too much incentive for killing people, while not giving any for doing anything else BUT kill others. This creates an unattractive push from being a pilot, since no real gain can be earned from doing so. But as many pilots in here have stated, we do it because it supports the team, regardless of points or money. (But there needs to be changes to this A.S.A.P) If the Assault FG took down HAVs as quickly and easily as they did Dropships, I'd have to agree on the RoF thing. But when you go up against a skilled tanker in a well-fitted HAV and decent infantry support, the RoF on the AFG only helps provide area denial and it's reasonably difficult to take them down, not to mention doing it alone. It's usually the prototype AV grenades + Nanohives, or general AV squads including AFG that are the bane of tankers. Considering the costs versus (lack of) rewards of skilling into and piloting dropships, I think they should have similar survivability to HAVs. In terms of what amount of raw damage they can eat. Just curious, but would DS pilots object to paying more ISK on Dropships if they were as tough as tanks?
Yeva Kalsani Reckoners 50	Posted - 2013.05.11 16:05:00 - [5] - Quote As a dedicated FG user, I have to agree it's slightly OP. Only slightly. It did not need another 10% damage, for instance. But overall it's far from the point where you see everybody running around with AFGs, right? I mean, here are just the most common scenarios when using an AFG: - vs Infantry: FGunner goes on an elevated position and starts bombarding infantry. Can kill some, damage others, and will deny area to further hostiles. - vs Infantry 2: FGunner goes on even level against infantry, most shots miss unless the FGunner gets lucky, gets wrecked by enemy infantry or HAVs. - vs LAVs: free LAV gets called in, people speed around, AFG blows them up, end of. Not all too easy though, given the speed of LAVs and the obstruction. However, the cost of using LAVs is relatively low, not absurdly much higher than, say, a standard-Heavy with AFG+complex damage mod. - vs HAVs: AFG can quickly inflict concerning amounts of damage to tough tanks and force them into retreating into cover. Tank can repair/shield back up but suffers some area denial. Can try to shoot the FGunner or wait for infantry to kill the FGunner. Weak militia tanks are easily blown up, but are at least cheap in comparison. - vs Dropships: FGunner spots DS, waits for it to hit a lull in speed and trajectory of flight, starts spamming AFG shots. DS can not easily hide behind obstructions or speed out of range quickly enough, is sent reeling in a vector according to the AFG shots, and goes down. A vehicle that cost an exorbitant amount of ISK is lost. IMHO, the problem here is not the AFG, but how DS pilots have no chance to react to an AFG broadsiding them. LAVs have a similar problem, but require far less buy-in. HAVs have the sufficient amount of time to react because they can tough out a few shots before they find good cover and/or distance; a DS cannot.
Yeva Kalsani Reckoners 60	Posted - 2013.05.12 15:09:00 - [6] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Forge guns will be 100% fine once they get "infinite" range with falloff damage, so long as their optimal range is tweaked back a bit. That makes disengaging and gaining altitude an actual viable tactic vs the forge gun, allowing you to mitigate damage by putting distance between you. It also rewards smart forge gunners who wait for the ship to get close and level out before opening fire. I'm not 100% sure about this being a godsend for dropships. I run FG and almost every dropship I take down, I get them within a range of 500m when they do any useful things that they need to do, like pick up clones or use turret fire against infantry or vehicles. BAM-BAM-dropship goes down. At high ranges, even with damage fall-off, they are hard to hit, especially when moving quickly. Forgegunning at extreme ranges requires incredibly accurate leading of your shots or you'll constantly miss; FG shots do not instantly explode at the target you're aiming at, but they have a travel timeGÇöthe farther away, the longer it has to travel. I read a good suggestion in another thread in which FG only do like 30% of their damage to aircraft specifically because they're not grounded, but can send them hurtling off-course and open them up for attacks from Swarm Launchers, thusly forcing AV infantry to work in tandem to easily take down a dropship. That's a lot better than any half-baked overall nerf suggestion against FG, and in fact even better than the overall HP buff for dropships I've been suggesting so far. Audio-visual warning systems for dropship pilots and passengers would also really help.