|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
239
   |
Posted - 2013.05.10 12:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
Okay, I know there are a million of these threads but as a logistics player for nearly a year now I'm gonna set some things straight as well as make some statements that are probably against what a lot of people want but in my honest personal opinion I think that's because people are just too inept to think about the real issue and try to find a way to solve that rather than just quick fixes to bring it all to a common baseline.
I will state, and not deny, that I am coming at this from my own direction which purposefully went for the Min logi and it's 4/4/4 (High slot / Low slot / Equipment slot, I've been using this denotation for logistics for months now and will continue to do till the day I stop playing) slots setup specifically FOR its versatility on the field... at logi-ing, so there is a slight bias perhaps? I've tried to keep it to the facts.
So here it goes.
There is nothing wrong with most logis as they stand, Minmatar, Gallente, or Amarr. There's just one bad apple in the bunch and it's sad that one race has to cheat the system and the whole class-line gets rammed up the exhaust valve for it.
Caldari Logistics bonus, you have to go buddy, and I'm not sorry in the least.
The Amarr bonus is a bit beefy but we can deal with that at a later date if there are even any real issues. With their lowered H/L/E, They could use that armor rep bonus to validate them as a more hardy logi though limited in logi-ing and mobile support.
As for all the rest, it's perfectly fine and you all know it deep inside. The truth isn't the apparent strength of the logistics class, it's the obvious weaknesses of other class spec suits, especially considering that the basic frame types ARE the Scout, Assault, and Heavy spec suits but for millions of SP less, only more ISK investment which is meaningless to people with hundreds of millions currently.
What we need is a PG/CPU and Module increase to Spec Assaults and Heavies. I really don't know what to do with scouts, they're already scary enough as it is...
Everyone stop screaming "NERF" because something is seemingly too powerful. You should instead ask that other things be brought UP to that level rather than the one be brought DOWN.
This would be like telling Usain Bolt or Tyson Gay they just can't compete in the Olympics because they're just too damn fast.
The point of champions and heroes is the ability to look UP to them as something to rise to and achieve ourselves. The same ideology should be applied in game-balancing. Weakening someone else's gameplay style doesn't make anyone happy in the long run. You have to strengthen the counterplay styles to it and give them higher incentives.
Increase Assault and Heavy CPU/PG, Increase Damage Mod demands. And for heaven's sake, increase Assault and heavy module slots.
This makes everyone happy and doesn't hurt anyone's preferred gameplay mechanic.
I say this as a mixed combat/frontline/defensive support logi. Yes, I get my kills and assists too but that's because I realize that IN a firefight most of the time, the best support you can give is out the business end of your firearm, and then deal with cleanup duty as the action starts to tail off.
Just my 0.02 ISK, but I just hope to get some people thinking about moving things in a positive direction overall rather than lowering this game into entropic and endless identical repetitive oblivion with everyone
__________
A strong man can do many things,
But the strongest knows he cannot do everything alone. |
Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
243
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 15:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Delirium Inferno wrote:I've been a logi since I started as well and I disagree that there is only one bad apple. They are all bad apples. A logi doesn't need 4 highs and 4 lows or any variation of that many mod slots. They are supposed to be the equipment guys. As it stands now we get the best of everything. Good base health (only about 30 less than assaults), best CPU/PG, the light weapon slot, most highs and lows, and most equipment. It's the god suit.
I'm still pushing the lower our slots and/or make our light a sidearm. And I'm a logi pushing for this.
Reppe Susi wrote:4 slots of everything is fine, do you guys not realize how much SP it takes to upgrade modules so that you can even fit them?
Logis are SP-sinks.
This is the whole point. 2mil for the proto basic Medium. 5mil for the proto logi or proto assault.
The benefit is balanced by the investment. The problem is that the Assault doesn't have a major benefit over the basic Medium frame, which it should.
People are complaining about logis having all these slots because they don't.
Why would you want to take that away from someone else instead of just boosting your own class build?
That's what I'm arguing for. Making Assaults and Heavies better, not kicking logis for benefiting from their SP investment.
The fact that you missed this entirely makes me a sad panda. I'm trying to HELP all you assaults and heavies here. |
Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
243
|
Posted - 2013.05.10 17:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Delirium Inferno wrote:Chankk Saotome wrote:
People are complaining about logis having all these slots because they don't.
Why would you want to take that away from someone else instead of just boosting your own class build?
Because logis are doing a better job at assault than assault. Plus with 4 high and 4 low, you can't really boost the assault even more because there's no room to grow there. You'd have to give all 4 racial variants of assault 5 high and 5 low and even then the logi would be better at assault since they can self support themselves with all the equipment. If there was more room to grow I would see your point, but as it stands now logis are pretty much maxed out everywhere. There should be no suit like this, regardless of the investment involved.
le sigh...
Again, you fail to read the entire posting, thus nullifying any attempt at argument you make.
By quoting lines out of context without the whole you not only dilute the actual statement made but corrupt its meaning and twist it to fit what you THINK you want because you can't look at a bigger picture than what already exists.
Imagine if a Proto Cal assault had 4H,3L and 2E, Gall 3/4/2... Min 4/4/2 or Amarr 4/5/1...
With their notably higher base stats than the logi suits they would at most break even if a logi attempted to run assault which is what, unfortunately, 90% of players want to run because they want the average bland mud-pie FPS and can't even begin to imagine something infinitely better which is what DUST has the opportunity to give us.
So give those racial spec Assault and Heavy suits more CPU/PG as well, and increase the CPU/PG demand of related spec focused modules like damage modifiers, thus restricting those to either weakened "assaut" logis or the THEN more significantly powered proper frontline assault Assaults.
Ive said it half a dozen times already, though not all contained here. Stop asking to REDUCE another players gameplay style, but rather balance UP to make yours better.
There needs to be a clearly defined benefit to skilling into the racial specialty suits. Right now, Logistics is the only one that has it, and it fits, it's balanced. The issue is that the Assault, Heavy, and Scout race spec suits don't. THAT is what needs fixing, not "nerfing" something else that other players have worked hard for and earned. |
Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
255
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 01:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
P14GU3 wrote:The major issue with the logistics seems to be the bonuses. I think they got the role and racial bonuses wrong. Logistics role bonus should be decrease is cpu/pg for equipment. This would be for ALL logistics. Then the racial, I would think some sort of tank bonus at this point so amarr bonus to plates, gallente get rep bonus, mini get shield recharge, and caldari get extenders? Just think out loud here, but I really think the role bonus should be to equipment, not tank. That is their "role" right?
I like this idea too, though honestly I think the current Amarr and Gall Logi bonuses are spot on for what they are. Even more bolstered Armor Rep for a heavy armor tank logi, Lowered PG/CPU per equipment with 4 loaded up. Spot on.
As for Min, it doesn't seem to fit but I recognize that at lvl3 only I hack as fast as 2 people by myself. That's a fast enough hack time to take a CRU or objective to prevent respawns while my team holds people off. Then I can turn around to revive anyone downed and repair everyone. Being a heavy skirmish player that's awesome to me but I can recognize it's a somewhat worthless bonus for probably most Min logis.
The Cal Logi bonus should probably be dropped to either Recharge bonus or Regulator bonus. Leave them their 5 slots, if they load up all shield extenders no problem. So they sit around 360 from modules, 225 from base. 580 shield if that's ALL they've loaded up? That's more acceptable than the nearly 700 currently and while a Regulator bonus would help it recharge sooner they'd still have to wait a while to actually get it all back. Most will realize they need a Recharger or two to balance it out dropping some shields to do so. And they still have to deal with their 90 armor if that all gets lost which can be a harrowing experience for them when they come up against anti-shield weaponry.
__________
While I see something going on with the Caldari Logi skill bonus, I maintain the issue is with suit builds themselves.
AND I will still maintain that the real issue is that there's no meaningful incentive or purpose to spec into racial Assault variants which is what needs changing, not anything on the logistics SUIT side.
|
Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
260
|
Posted - 2013.05.11 16:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
I'm probably gonna get flamed, already posted this in another thread but thought I should share it here as well. Some ideas on Skill Bonus mods without adjusting the suits themselves. Check it and give some feedback:
Amarr: Ehh... Acceptable, not sure what to do here.
Assault: Nice
Amarr: I dunno... Armor Rep module bonus? Maybe they want their lasers though so maybe not...
Gallente:
Logi: Spot on CCP.
Gallente: Decrease to armor plate speed penalty 5% per lvl over PG/CPU?
Caldari Logi:
Logi: Acceptable
Caldari: Shield Recharge bonus 5%?
Caldari Assault: Assault: Shield Extender mod bonus 2% (because 5% of anything module-related is broken as all get-out). Caldari: Acceptable... maybe?
Min Assault:
Assault: Okay. Maybe recharge SPEED > rate? i.e. switched to Regulator over Recharge capacity.
Minmatar: 2% L/S dmg bonus |
Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
263
|
Posted - 2013.05.13 13:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
So it seems they're going to go for a nerf on the Logi suits rather than a buff to the Assault suits, STILL giving assaults no real strong incentive to skill into their class spec suits and likely turning logis into targets and liabilities rather than proper field aide and team benefit.
To read some of IWS's ideas, the yellow the CCP art department gave us is just about right because we're likely to be turned into wooden ducks on a carousel to be popped down with no real difficulty.
I just have to say congratulations to all the kids complaining. You whine logis are too OP, then that logis don't give you aide when you need or call for it. It's about to get a whole lot worse when people just stop running the class all together.
I've tried to do my part to help throughout the past year of gaming here, and with the vicious reaction to broken new Uprising mechanics I and several others have attempted to actually look at the real issue and give sound suggestions on how to resolve it for the positive benefit of everyone; however sound logic and reasoning is ignored to the shouting of the masses who can't think about the actual issues and only to their own grief.
It would seem the internet just took on DUST and kicked CCP in the teeth. Well played internet, well played. |
Chankk Saotome
SyNergy Gaming
EoN.
275
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 09:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
Dropped all the way to page 8 while I was away... not surprised, most [General Forums] users don't care for logic or well thought arguments and discourse.
RedBleach, thanks for the comments and I agree wholeheartedly. Nobody was whining about our Min logis for the past year even though there were attempts to make it into a kind of glass-cannon, it never really worked, and as far as I see, the Amarr and Gall don't really have the ability to do the same either.
Cosgar, thanks to you as well for trying to spread the logic about logistics out there, it just seems unfortunate that nobody, the CPM included, want to hear anything even closely resembling a valid argument and counter-discussion with ideas of where the real problems lie and how to fix them, even if not only to get people to at least cool down and look at those real problems rather than take a reactionary backlash response.
It really is one bad apple, no matter what everyone wants to QQ about while screaming bloody Mary. 9 modules is certainly excessive, and that skill bonus is just obscene. Nobody's denying that. But don't go hijacking all the other logis on the field because of one bad suit/skill design that clearly wasn't thought out beyond someone saying, "Oh, we need to give 'em a Racial skill... lots of high slots, meh, shield ext mod bonus." without considering that would equate to nearly 100hp shield modules.... and 5 of them to boot.
For anyone saying logis have too much PG/CPU... I'm running all of 2 Complex Shields on my Min logi, because that's all I can fit. Why? Because the rest of my CPU/PG is being chewed up by my equipment and backup survival modules in L slots (armor rep, shield reg, 1 plate). I get my kills because I'm a lunatic, but I'm doing my job the damn best I possibly can as well and get complained at that I still need to do more. And that's with Engineering/Electronics 5, so don't be going on to tell me I can buff up other skills... Not till I get my next 2 mil SP.
Everyone complaining about logis need to actually try to play one themselves, but that would be a waste of SP into half a dozen skills they don't even need anymore. Yeah, I also lag behind everyone in suit and weaponry SP just to GET all that equipment to keep you worthless kittens alive.
Look, the Caldari Logi needs a major reworking, and the Assault Skills need some fiddling as well to push people into skilling those branches, but don't go slapping every logi on the field for what a few min-max mechanic-abusing players have done. If nations and world leaders thought like that America would have gone to war with Iraq just for thinking they had something they never did and someone saying they were allied with... oh... damn.
But we're better than that here... aren't we? |
|
|
| |
|