DUST Search - Medium Basic Suits, Fundamentally Wrong.

Val'herik Dorn wrote:

Although done oddly in dust the amarrian philosophy of buffering the kitten outta their toys holds true in dust.

In eve they get bonuses tn resistances which in a kind of perverse way the dust omni tank does. Yiu can go either way but somethig suffers be it shield or hp.

I run a true omni tank sitting at... a lot of hp for the medium frame I don't kill fast but long after the other guy has been forced to flee I'm still sitting there lining up shots. With the new rep skills my proto rep is running almost like a complex and a standard on top of a tank that makes old heavies jealous.

Once I skill into assault the bonus to shield regen will make it even more tanky. Basically the amarrian suit is in my humble opinion designed to be more of a point defense suit than a slaughtering machine.

It is interesting to me that the difference in suits actually encourges different playstyles. I like this and don't find it bad. I think it is good for dust to have lots of options not just one class to do all of them.

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Cruor Abominare Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 14	Posted - 2013.05.08 01:01:00 - [1] - Quote I made a similar post for my corporation, I'll to expand here and pose the question of what exactly was the thinking behind the new medium suits. This isn't a whine about new skill point requirements but simply an observation on some rather wonky design concepts. On the surface you can look at the suits and see a basic idea permeating through them. Gallente is obviously some sort of armor suit (its actually a less hp heavy suit masquerading as an assault suit, and often times slower), minmatar is screaming shields with 5 highs, caldari as well with 4 and a high base shield amount. Amarr looks a little off though, it has even slots and even hp totals, as well as the highest base life. Is this a problem? Doesn't look like it at first but lets start exploring, and for a basis lets assume all skills are V, except for AR fitting skill, mostly because it will never actually affect a worthwhile fitting, and is a huge oversight on medium basics. Let us start with an amarr suit, while you're free to try this exercise with any fit, this fit best explains the problem Highs Highs Complex Shield Extender Complex Light dmg Complex Light Dmg Proto AR Ex-11 Nades K17-R Hive Toxin SMG Lows We still have plenty of room but hey lets put: (and this will make sense in a minute) 2x Basic Plate 1x Armor Repper 665HP, still about 40 CPU and 17 PG to go to use different weapons. Even better, I don't actually have to spend points in engy V and elect V, unless I really want to tweak my lows. This is about to be real interesting though. Lets try matching this fit an abilities as closely as possible with minmatar. Well we have less base hp but more highs, lets try to bridge the gap and try to match the amarr as closely as possible. Highs 3x Complex Shield Extenders 2x Complex Light Weapons Lows Double Plate we have base armor rep anyways same weapons/nades/equip 645 HP! nice we're pretty damn close and a little faster. Uh oh invalid fitting. We need 493 CPU and 87 PG. Yet we only have 416 CPU and 83 PG. Both lows are then sacrificed for fitting mods and bring us to about 574ish HP. Worse Rep/Less Life/but slightly faster. Hmm thats odd, I had to use fitting mods and definitely had to have all skills to V, and fun fact AR fitting V wouldn't have solved my power grid problem. Ok, ok lets do caldari next, they're mean shield tankers they should have this no prob no prob. Caldari gets a little closer after trying to match since they only need 1 fitting mod, but have 3 lows and larger base health. 639 hp. That certainly feels a little better, but still I needed fitting mods and V'ing all my skills whereas Amarr didn't? Why is that? (gallente is so wonky I won't touch that, you try to match the hp/dmg bonus of these other three) Well it turns out theres 2 big main problems. 1. Base Health > Mod given health. In the best of circumstances dropsuit mods are 10% bonused and Dropsuit health is 25% bonused, thats a huge difference, for example on the screen amarr medium has 360 hp to work with, the minnie has 285. You of course will fool yourself into thinking the gap isn't that small I can certainly use my extra 2 highs. However with skills the gap is much larger 450 to 356, at a modded 71 hp per extender you're already out about a slot and a half just trying to make up that difference. This is then compounded when you realize you're two slots in CPU/PG behind because you need fitting mods. 2. Slots VS CPU/PG allotment. This builds on the last problem a little. Ok so Amarr has the highest base health but 6 slots to work with, the other two notables have less hp but are rewarded with having 7 slots. Ok, I see this making a little sense if I ignore what we just talked about. However, heres the monkey wrench, the non amarrs actually have less CPU/PG to work with. They need all 7 slots to catch up, but can't actually fit all 7 without fitting mods. They get whammied again, where as amarr cruises on with dealth with it sunglasses it skilled into by saving 1.5 million in fitting skills. Tl;Dr, if you're medium basic -> assault then get on the Amarr train, no matter the fit, you will always in every case have more HP, and be able to run better mods than any other race trying to match you. You just give up a rather meaningless token of speed thats barely noticeable to begin with, and you save SP.
S0LlD SNAKE PLAYSTATION4 18	Posted - 2013.05.08 01:03:00 - [2] - Quote Adapt or Die
Lance 2ballzStrong SyNergy Gaming EoN. 1455	Posted - 2013.05.08 01:05:00 - [3] - Quote S0LlD SNAKE wrote: Adapt or Die so that's all you keep saying on every thread? Nice contribution. Hope you get banned soon
Big miku Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 148	Posted - 2013.05.08 01:07:00 - [4] - Quote AMARR TRULY IS THE MASTER RACE! WHERE CAN I CONVERT?
S0LlD SNAKE PLAYSTATION4 18	Posted - 2013.05.08 01:08:00 - [5] - Quote Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: S0LlD SNAKE wrote: Adapt or Die so that's all you keep saying on every thread? Nice contribution. Hope you get banned soon Its advice , truth and fact. Why you so mad?
Geth Massredux Defensores Doctrina 281	Posted - 2013.05.08 01:10:00 - [6] - Quote Dude just play the game, stop taking in depth detail on the stats. You might hurt yourself.
Don Von Hulio Not Guilty EoN. 252	Posted - 2013.05.08 01:18:00 - [7] - Quote Im Amarr, but the catch 22 of being an amarr is your health is pretty split down the middle (unless you stack alot of plates). Benefit of Caldari is most of their health is in Shields. So they have a very fast health regen compared the rest of the suits. So they can actually sponge more damage over a period of time versus other frames. But, things like Flux nades, lasers and soon to be laser rifles will mess them up hardcore.
Cruor Abominare Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 15	Posted - 2013.05.08 01:21:00 - [8] - Quote Geth Massredux wrote: Dude just play the game, stop taking in depth detail on the stats. You might hurt yourself. sure, I'll play. Broken mechanic is broken, but I'll totally be fine on the advantaged side. Its basically that while we're in the sand box I'll be making a beautiful sand castle and you'll be very happy and content to eat the sand instead. To each their own.
Bad Heal The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 3	Posted - 2013.05.08 01:22:00 - [9] - Quote Almost spec'd amarr, almost. problem is i'm logi : )
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 119	Posted - 2013.05.08 01:25:00 - [10] - Quote Why do you want to build the same load out on all the suits? Clearly if you want health one suit is better than the others. But what if you want other stats like lower profile, better scanning, higher sprint speed? Then the other suits may be better.

Cruor Abominare Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 15	Posted - 2013.05.08 01:28:00 - [11] - Quote Don Von Hulio wrote: Im Amarr, but the catch 22 of being an amarr is your health is pretty split down the middle (unless you stack alot of plates). Benefit of Caldari is most of their health is in Shields. So they have a very fast health regen compared the rest of the suits. So they can actually sponge more damage over a period of time versus other frames. But, things like Flux nades, lasers and soon to be laser rifles will mess them up hardcore. This is definitely a good point. However my counter point is this, i've really only moved 71 hp from the caldari hp over to armor, between armor rep and hive rep, assuming nothing like a logi hitting me for a few seconds with his repair tool. I'm pretty much back into the fight just as fast. I'm also less vulnerable to things like scrambler rifles (which will be freaking everywhere) laser rifles and flux nades.
mollerz s1ck3r Corp 202	Posted - 2013.05.08 01:42:00 - [12] - Quote S0LlD SNAKE wrote: Lance 2ballzStrong wrote: S0LlD SNAKE wrote: Adapt or Die so that's all you keep saying on every thread? Nice contribution. Hope you get banned soon Its advice , truth and fact. Why you so mad? It's spammy and screams of your need for attention. Quite unfortunate.
Cruor Abominare Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 15	Posted - 2013.05.08 01:48:00 - [13] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: Why do you want to build the same load out on all the suits? Clearly if you want health one suit is better than the others. But what if you want other stats like lower profile, better scanning, higher sprint speed? Then the other suits may be better. I'd argue that the hp mixture between armor and shields is more than enough diversity without having to worry about overall shifts in maximum hp totals. If you want those other things you may as well run a scout. The differential isn't truly noticeable between the assault gambit aside from minnie run speed, which is less important because of the drop in range shooting requiring less cover hopping and being pinned down. Tac-Net also cheapens the other two stats because as long as a team member sees a target, its updated to everyone else and vice versa. Trying to be a sneaky assault is just being a bad scout, assaults are for well rounded firefight work, where things like damage and hp are king. A couple of points in scan will never be noticeable where as ending a fire fight dead or with just a couple of hitpoints certainly is noticeable not just to the player but the overall dynamics of a match.
XANDER KAG Red Star. EoN. 118	Posted - 2013.05.08 02:14:00 - [14] - Quote So would you think this advantage applies to all Ammar medium frame suits? From the basic standard to racial proto? Or do you see a break point? Sorry if these seem obvious but its midnight here and i can't exactly think straight.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2764	Posted - 2013.05.08 02:15:00 - [15] - Quote Ever considered the passive bonuses? Overheat speed on laser weapons vs. rapid reload on the Caldari, for example? I think 25% faster reload speed on Shotguns, ARs and Sniper Rifles is a pretty huge bonus. Also, the more shield-heavy the suit, the better the benefit they get from faster shield regen.
XANDER KAG Red Star. EoN. 118	Posted - 2013.05.08 02:20:00 - [16] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Ever considered the passive bonuses? Overheat speed on laser weapons vs. rapid reload on the Caldari, for example? I think 25% faster reload speed on Shotguns, ARs and Sniper Rifles is a pretty huge bonus. Also, the more shield-heavy the suit, the better the benefit they get from faster shield regen. I thought it was a 2% bonus to reload speed per lvl?
Cruor Abominare Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 16	Posted - 2013.05.10 01:44:00 - [17] - Quote XANDER KAG wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Ever considered the passive bonuses? Overheat speed on laser weapons vs. rapid reload on the Caldari, for example? I think 25% faster reload speed on Shotguns, ARs and Sniper Rifles is a pretty huge bonus. Also, the more shield-heavy the suit, the better the benefit they get from faster shield regen. I thought it was a 2% bonus to reload speed per lvl? it is, though on the overheating bit, all skills that pertain to heat are actually now cool down speed increases. This is huge because its actually really bad like this. You don't actually get to fire longer and it it only takes off about a second to cool down. As it stands, even with stacking light dmg, you'll be incredibly lucky to kill just about anyone by yourself with a laser burst except crummy militia suits or total fail fits. Playing around with the theory crafting max hp on suits is hovering around 776.6 hp on Amarr, 649 Caldari, 580 Minmatar, and about the same on gallente without all the speed.
Eltra Ardell Goonfeet 59	Posted - 2013.05.10 01:49:00 - [18] - Quote Amarr suits are less flexible and unable to specialize as heavily as other suits. EHP isn't everything. Trust me.
knight of 6 SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 153	Posted - 2013.05.10 01:52:00 - [19] - Quote so what you saying is, different suits have different play styles and that is bad?
Lonnar KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 14	Posted - 2013.05.10 01:58:00 - [20] - Quote Your specific circumstance notes a strong point. However that's just it ... it's a specific circumstance. I am however, rather aware of the sheer numbers of Assault suits running around simply because it's a shooter role that everyone is very familiar with. Not too many newberries stop to think about the actual repercussions of having a full Assault team go up against a team well balanced between all 4 suits. So essentially, your point is valid, however rather situational as not too many good teams/corps/alliances/players will simply stick to just Assault. There's just way too much diversity in this game to allow everyone to stick to the same generic fit. Everyone develops a role on the battlefield ... and it's the different suits and modules that will enable us to fill that role perfectly.

Rynoceros One-Armed Bandits 51	Posted - 2013.05.10 02:02:00 - [21] - Quote Nobody contending for the gK.0 suits? 5% shield regen & 3% CPU/PG reduction per lvl, plus a bigger base armor HP to put fatty shields over. Shotguns w/ Kinetic Catalyzers in the low slot(s) = never saw me coming
Winsaucerer The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 73	Posted - 2013.05.10 02:04:00 - [22] - Quote Eltra Ardell wrote: Amarr suits are less flexible and unable to specialize as heavily as other suits. EHP isn't everything. Trust me. I think this is right. Or at least, should be right. Tank is only part of the story, and there is something to be said from having the diversity that the Amarr suit lacks. Amarr suit lacks, but makes up for it by a built-in mod that can't ever be replaced. Anyway, Amarr should be built like bricks!
Val'herik Dorn SyNergy Gaming EoN. 529	Posted - 2013.05.10 02:10:00 - [23] - Quote Although done oddly in dust the amarrian philosophy of buffering the kitten outta their toys holds true in dust. In eve they get bonuses tn resistances which in a kind of perverse way the dust omni tank does. Yiu can go either way but somethig suffers be it shield or hp. I run a true omni tank sitting at... a lot of hp for the medium frame I don't kill fast but long after the other guy has been forced to flee I'm still sitting there lining up shots. With the new rep skills my proto rep is running almost like a complex and a standard on top of a tank that makes old heavies jealous. Once I skill into assault the bonus to shield regen will make it even more tanky. Basically the amarrian suit is in my humble opinion designed to be more of a point defense suit than a slaughtering machine. It is interesting to me that the difference in suits actually encourges different playstyles. I like this and don't find it bad. I think it is good for dust to have lots of options not just one class to do all of them.
Lonnar KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 15	Posted - 2013.05.11 00:43:00 - [24] - Quote Val'herik Dorn wrote: Although done oddly in dust the amarrian philosophy of buffering the kitten outta their toys holds true in dust. In eve they get bonuses tn resistances which in a kind of perverse way the dust omni tank does. Yiu can go either way but somethig suffers be it shield or hp. I run a true omni tank sitting at... a lot of hp for the medium frame I don't kill fast but long after the other guy has been forced to flee I'm still sitting there lining up shots. With the new rep skills my proto rep is running almost like a complex and a standard on top of a tank that makes old heavies jealous. Once I skill into assault the bonus to shield regen will make it even more tanky. Basically the amarrian suit is in my humble opinion designed to be more of a point defense suit than a slaughtering machine. It is interesting to me that the difference in suits actually encourges different playstyles. I like this and don't find it bad. I think it is good for dust to have lots of options not just one class to do all of them. Pretty much what I was saying. What even more interesting ... is the differences in playstyles WITHIN the same setup. For example, the Amarr Heavy suits were intended to be used as a point defence. In that respect, I'm rightfully afraid of turning a corner in some of the tighter spaces of some maps and running into a Heavy. However what you're seeing more of these days is due to the sheer bulkiness of the Heavy suits, a line of them marching down the warpath with HMGs overlapping their sprays is equally formidable. Due to their bulk, it's hard to put them down one on one, so you need a few people who are crack shots with a sniper, or a well organized squad in order to put down a couple of Heavies. Logistic suits have a similar twist. You'd mostly think they'd be support, but I've seen some pretty decent Assault -based Logis. No Repair Tools, no Nanite Injectors. Instead they run with Remote Explosives, Nanohives, and they leave the third Equipment slot empty to free up more PG/CPU for a stronger weapon or higher tier Armor and Shield mods. Ever see a full AV Logi? That's some scary stuff right there.


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