I agree with my CPM mate Kane regarding the fact that any modification brought to Dust in terms of balance, even if so little, needs to be out to the public PRIOR to any actual modification. Reasons have to be given on why it is done, feedback has to be taken regarding of it is a good idea or not, if it is done in the right scale etc...

There is nothing wrong with transparency. And like Kane said, none of us in the CPM wants to decide for all of you.

Hey guys, the sentiment is not going unnoted. I have sent this thread and other similar ones off to people. Hopefully we can get a more detailed breakdown of stuff for you, both in the near and distant future.

Pretty sure there were more members in ZTCD when I was in it then the entire current memberbase.

ZionShad is looking like a hero right now too.

EVERYTHINGS CHANGING :(

New players have as much right to make comment and post thoughts on balance. "I was here first" doesn't give any of us niche protection, nor should it.

Faction Warfare doesn't even work correctly in this build, you have to skill into dropsuit shield extenders in order to get vehicle extenders (Even though they have a vehicle shield extender skill now), and nanite injectors hardly ever work. CCP needs to work on its attention to detail. Grand plans are one thing but CCP is counting its chickens at the moment while the eggs sit unattended to. Stop telling us what the game will be like in 10 years and start discussing important near term changes.

Furthermore the maps look great, however they are not functional at the moment. One example is on manu's peak behind the twin peak that is closes to the small bowl there is a small rock... this small rock blocks everything from passing in a 10 meter radius. The terrain is full of magnets that cause you to stick to them not being able to move, and it feels like your constantly wobbling around due to slight terrain changes.

Lastly why does it sound like i broke every bone in my leg when i take slight falling damage.

Completely agree this build has had some radical changes and quite honestly has become far more complex and will be even harder to retain new players especially when they buy a raven suit they will have to get medium suits to proto level to use something they paid real money for.

I really hope CCP sees all the qq threads and realizes much better communication could have prevented it. My corp has slowly shrunk in size the last few months and I had hopes this build would bring them back. I am not sure the expectations will match what they get due to poor CCP communication.

lol was funny

but +1 to CCP for the change

This build is a mixed bag for me. Some of the changes are pretty sweet, like new dropsuits that are actually differentiated, cleaner visuals, and the simplified skill tree. On the other hand, some things are just down right ******, like MD nerf, vehicles skills getting fubar'd, HMG getting double-nerfed for no obvious reason, and the new skill-tree beign a huge SP sink to the point where I am not even half of what I was last build with 10.5mil SP for my logi. (Also not fond of making logis banana yellow of "Shoot me first!" because that is dumb).

Honestly with this massive of an overhaul we should have been given much more concrete details on stuff to pour over and look at, because I am sure that as FotM as shown, some things are definitely more powerful than others, and some things really are UP.

In terms of what I think needs to be fixed first:
1) range buff to all weapons since SS is gone
2) better weapon balancing so it isn't AR514

It seems clear to me that many community members, including CPMs who were at FanFest and got to poke around in the new build, are unhappy with how portions of this update have turned out, and like many others have said, CCP you could have avoided this headache with some better transparency so close to release. If this build ***** hard enough, you might even want to consider another respecc since this skill tree is so SP intensive and much more unforgiving than the last iteration.

Edit: Also, CCP you said you were leaving Militia BPOs. MAG tribute suits are not militia. I now have a worthless 20k Aurum sink in my inventory because I didn't want to spec into that racial dropsuit. Not cool.

All you had to do was:
Update graphics/UI
Remove sharpshooter - would have fixed the HMG without further touching its range/dmg
Fix iron sights
Not mess with nanite injectors/calling for help.

Instead, it appears you dev'd with a wrecking ball instead of a surgeon's scalpel.

Whoever decided this mess is launch ready should be fired.

This is CCP's AAA shooter? A dumbed down sc-fi version of CoD? CoD is AA at best, mind you.

Guns shoot more than 50 meters. I don't care if you say shooting someone at 200+ meters is overpowered. We need realistic guns and not pieces of crap that shoot shorter than I can throw a football. Last I checked most real life ARs get passed 300 meter ranges. CCP was so proud of their 5 km maps and we can't shoot past 50 meters. This makes no sense and is an affront to the Dust 514 playerbase. This was supposed to be New Eden and not a place where we pander to the *****ing pubbies who lacked the New Eden hardened fortitude to continue to skill up sharpshooter on their own.

Way to pander to a minority where the majority gets screwed. Is that how we do it in New Eden now?

Let's not forget that a AAA shooter is realistic while being new and revolutionary. Two thumbs down for Uprising.

Pretty sure this thread is longer then the HMG can shoot. Just sayin'.

Yup. :D 1 month this time ;)

Make no mistake, this is a riot.

These forums and the public IRC are our statue to shoot.

Our concerns right now go far beyond making sure CCP notices this thread or that thread. Even amongst the trolling which only makes sorting through the information a more difficult chore, there is no shortage of expert advice amongst those of you in the community documenting the changes, discussing the problems with them, and posting effective solutions. The problem as I see it is that the expert advice is not being utilized efficiently (or at all in some cases) and a feedback loop has emerged where frustrated players post up solutions, see no result, get more frustrated, post twice as hard, and then get twice as frustrated.

This has of course come to a head with the deployment of Uprising, resulting in forums that have been unusable for days. I personally believe that this is a natural consequence of making noticeable and frustrating changes to the game without proper documentation, and without cluing the community into the reason why any of these changes were made in the first place. This is a perfect storm of the following:

1.) Seemingly arbitrary balancing changes made without advance notification to the community.
2.) Some balancing changes (like weapon ranges) completely alter the feel of combat and create negative side effects
3.) Lack of supporting explanation of said balancing changes
4.) Wasted player effort on trying to compile data that should be made public anyways, and weeks in advance
5.) Wasted player effort on trying to assess WHY a change was made, when the developers could just tell us.
6.) Forums that are inefficient at best and unusable at worst because discussions are not contained to concrete threads initiated by the developers responsible for the balancing changes.

Regardless of Telcontar's laughable claim that we are some spineless entity who exists to assist CCP with PR and who refuses to say anything critical to CCP, neither I nor the rest of the CPM will be standing idly while these issues continue to threaten the potential that Uprising has, which many of us saw at Fanfest. The reward for us sitting around parroting CCP's statements or whitewashing problems is a fundamentally worse product, and CCP gets no benefit for their investment by having us pretend everything is peachy.

With the "CPM SUX" abloobloo out of the way, we'll return to the subject at hand - there are indeed noticeable difference between the two builds, latency is clearly not the same as when it operated on private servers, and most of you are plenty familiar with the bug affecting KB/Mouse controls. On top of that, weapon and suit performance appears to be different as well. CCP was honest with attendees that the builds were not exactly the same, but we still deserved more information about what was changed and why.

None of these are insurmountable problems, and if enough effort is made to fix these issues in the immediate future, Uprising will still be a step forward for the game as a whole. What it does mean is that we need to get into the nuts and bolts of balancing with an unprecedented level of transparency, as Dust 514 deserves to be a hardcore FPS with rock solid core gunplay. I personally believe that having a stable, balanced core with excellent latency, hit detection, polished weapons, and logical suit bonuses with a satisfying pace of progression should be CCP's #1 priority. FW, PC, none of these exciting game modes will be fulfilling if the game is frustrating at its core.

The CPM's top priority at the moment is finding out what can be fixed between now and May 14, as well as correcting the communication patterns that have created the current forum culture and justifiable unrest. Be assured we will be doing as much as possible to ensure that we secure this dialogue surrounding core gameplay with the level of transparency that you deserve.

Just as those of us on the CSM successfully transformed the way that the we interacted with the development teams last year and secured our status as a stakeholder, I am confident the CPM will successfully change the way that CCP interacts with the community in the days ahead as well. In the meantime the naysaying bullshit will continue (as CSM7 endured all last year until everyone saw Retribution's subscriber numbers and the Odyssey feature list), but the claims that the CPM can't make a difference have already been torpedoed once, and I'm happy to dumpster them again and again as often as I'm given the opportunity.

Thank you all for your patience and hard work in the meantime. I welcome you to get into contact with us personally with your concerns and suggestions, you have created far too many threads for us to grace them all with our presence.

It's my belief that if the ENTIRE patch notes and item list were put out before hand (as well as optimal ranges for weapons)
This could of easily been avoided, as everyone would of been voicing their opinions as to what needs to go where.

The biggest fail of this build to me was the lack of communication, I mean for months all we got were small teasers as to how the skill system would be updated and how we would be getting a respec. Nothing to how Mass Driver blast radius would be nerfed (not even in the patch notes) Or how the logistics suit takes a lot more sp to spec into. The Heavy nerf is probably the biggest example.

Things like these could of been avoided. Months ago I could of known there wouldn't be any basic frame logis, and I could of asked someone about it. Now I just get to make a forum post and hope that it will make it in the next build in 4 months.

It's like talking to a wall, and hoping someone is on the other side to hear your cries for help.

Bold move to spec so heavily into something that you haven't tested yet. In an attempt to avoid any possible future qq from the regular fanboys/girls, I'm willing to bet that CCP has already hit all "soonTM" weapons with the nerf-hammer to "lolbalance" them ... somehow.

From what I've been able to gather it isn't malicious intent. Whatever technical hurdles there may be though, you all deserve as must data about the things you are going to invest your time and money into when it comes to your SP, ISK, and AUR. With the dramatic changes in ranges it only makes sense that you all be given a comparison to Chromosome ranges and Uprising changes.

Also the CPM has a whole hasnt said a whole lot aside from saying they are with the community.

You keep saying the channels are open between you and CCP.... so... what has happened so far?

Where are the other CPM members? Wish there was a quick way to find what you are posting.

they shafted everyone almost

We were told in IRC that many of the stats were limited just because it was not convenient to pull them out of the system. I don't know how it applies to weapon ranges, but weapon damage for example is an attribute of the projectile itself and so couldn't be attached to the weapon in the spreadsheet. It may be that range is a property of the projectile as well, or simply not stored as a basic variable attached to the weapon.

I doubt it would have been difficult to link them but maybe they're using some crazily obscure system to link ammo to weapons. (Interestingly this may be some evidence towards seeing different ammo types in future).

Thanks for this thread Kane.

Please be advised that the numbers are in and shotgun range was also ninja nerfed. Coupled with the known aiming issues that going proto appears to have made even worse and to boot a problem that is worse at close range..... with three type of ugly the game is unplayable for me other than to go in fire off some rounds and maybe hit someone.

I haven't used a shotgun in this game for over a year. Last night i tourned my heavy alt into a scout and went out with the merc pack shotgun with half-trained skills, no damage mods.

I can two shot proto heavies.

This. It may sound arrogant but I remember when the community played against the Devs last summer, we stomped them so hard. I remember, I was there in my tank (when tanks were highly OP).

They didnt have skills and didnt know how to play their own games. Its that simple.

They are using number crunching (just read the HMG thread) to come up with balancing instead of all the data we have given them for beta and the feedback from players.

They arent even using feels, and that same data crunching broke so many stats and classes that the game is unplayable.


What did Dust promise? Galactic warfare over planets with multiple vehicles, MCC battles and a variety of classes.

At launch, we are getting a mini part of factional warfare... thats about it.

Nothing else.

Oh, and a broken game. And Devs mostly hiding behind numbers crunching.

What in the hell was the beta for then? A crowd funding strategy to publish this?

It doesn't really matter, if we know things are rolling. You can find a few shy posts by various devs, they are aware. Now let's wait for ETA on fixes.

Hope aiming will be the first they focus on. Noone wants to play FPSubmarines here.

It should. That doesn't mean our responsibilities as a community are over. It will be up to the players and the CPM to make sure CCP and Dust 514 stay on the right course moving forward. Actions and results are much more valuable than words.