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Grezkev
The Red Guards EoN.
200
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Posted - 2013.05.04 17:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
The TANK: "a tracked, armoured fighting vehicle designed for front-line combat which combines operational mobility and tactical offensive and defensive capabilities"; "an enclosed heavily armed and armored combat vehicle that moves on tracks"
The tank made its first appearance in combat in the shakedown in Austria following the assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand. It was known simply as an 'armored car', and served a primary purpose of cover and a rallying point for police forces throughout Austria.
The Tank's big breakthrough however was with the Mark V British armored vehicle that was later replicated by Germany during the early months of World War 1. Slow, clunky, and poorly armed, the tank could do little more than traverse the battlefield and provide cover for flanking troops. It's armor however, was revolutionary. Not even the famous German .82 Howitzer could damage its outer shell.
We didn't see the tanks true potential and power however until World War II against the ***** in Europe. ******'s Panzerjager division was well equipped with vehicles that featured heavy armor in the front, and large powerful 80mm cannons. The use of the tank by the ***** was quite simply: Demoralize the enemy. Troops would create a line of scrimmage, then after securing a position would charge their tanks into enemy territory. The tactic was part of the **** Blitzkrieg, however it came with a heavy consequence: There was a loss factor of about 40% of all tanks that engaged in the first assault.
The French and the Allies used their tanks in a different manner. Rather than arm them with large cannons that could destroy an entire building, they built smaller 45-60mm turrets that could use a variety of shells (anti-tank, anti-infantry, anti-air). Some of the tanks were even so versatile that rockets could be placed on them to fire blind into enemy territory.
In the Allied Invasion of Europe (Operation Overlord), the Canadian, British, and American forces siezed upon key cities such as Carentan in the inner regions of Northern France with the primary goal of linking up beachheads together. The reason was obvious: Tanks could not advance into France without a clear road. Infantry were required to secure areas of advancement before tanks could be used to control the area and lock it down. In other words, The Allied used the tanks as a secondary defensive line, and their primary role was to assist troops.
Not surprisingly, the Allies won the war and lost less tanks than anyone...including the Soviet Union who tried to use tanks in a similar way to the Germans.
The lesson here is simple: Tanks are not blitzkrieg devices or tools. They are infantry-support, and anti-vehicle. Using them without consideration for these roles...and just trying to one-man it around the battlefield....SHOULD BE...and will be....the easiest way to waste away a Tank.
That's my opinion on everyone's complaints about the tanks. |
Grezkev
The Red Guards EoN.
203
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Posted - 2013.05.04 18:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:You are an idiot
We are thousands of years ahead in the future with materials and devices which have only ever been dreamed about
Who are you to say that we havnt got a tank which is a mobile death star with tracks which can wipe out the entire team
Lieutenant Taka of the Allied Corporation Red*Star of EoN, please don't talk to higher ups in such a manner.
I am not an idiot, actually, I am a historian by profession and I expressed this quite simply because this is the origin of the tank. It is the only primary usage of the tank in warfare a game designer (CCP) has to work with in terms of developing their software.
"We are thousands of years in the future".......We are actually playing a game that was designed in the 21st century, a game whose designers are limited to the experiences of the 20th and 21st century for their designing utility of 'the tank'. To pretend that understandings and complexities beyond our own can exist in something that we ourselves created in the present is nothing short of ignorance.
Who am I to say that you haven't got a tank that's a mobile death star? Well I'm the guy that's here telling you that never happened before. And if you don't learn from history, you're bound to repeat it.
Besides, when you break it all down...the game is not very different from WW2 combat. Infantry are the SHOCK troops...the primary roles of the battlefield. Their ability to put down a tank should be higher, if not equally matched, by their ability to be killed by one. Infantry have always been more mobile than tanks, and their ability to flank a tank, surround it, and destroy it should be no different "a thousand years from now" as it is today.
Get over it Taka. Then go talk to Nano. |
Grezkev
The Red Guards EoN.
204
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Posted - 2013.05.04 18:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:You can kiss my ass
I do not report to anyone and if you dont like my opinion then go cry about it to nano or whoever
The game is designed in this century but the lore and everything else is thousands of years ahead so things could have changed
In fact why cant my tank fly instead and shoot lasers at anything that moves or throw monkeys at ppl instead
Its called imagination and doesnt have to stick to the rules of the real world since its a game
******* idiot
Insubordination within EoN....fascinating.
"things could have changed" ---> You used the key word "could", well guess what: They didn't. Get over it.
Throw monkeys? I see you're just a troubled youngster who's butthurt over losing his ability to troll around Ambush matches. That truly is...'imagination.'
You aren't on the game's development team so your imagination is worth about as much as a toilet with no seat.
They don't say 'the truth hurts' for no reason. They also say...'You can't handle the truth.' I guess you're just a great example of that Taka. |
Grezkev
The Red Guards EoN.
206
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Posted - 2013.05.04 18:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
You're just mad that the game is reflecting a more accurate portrayal of the tank, Taka. It's breaking down your ability to exploit one aspect of it.
You will get over it. You'll have to....or you'll quit the game. That simple. I hear you can still dominate the battlefield like a joke in Battlefield Vietnam with the Soviet attack chopper. Why don't you go play that? |
Grezkev
The Red Guards EoN.
206
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 18:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Heimdallr69 wrote:We can also use tanks to kill people miles away we can also do that with an apache
Apache is closer to a dropship, don't you think? Or perhaps if they made an "attack-dedicated" dropship with no transport and heavier weapons. |
Grezkev
The Red Guards EoN.
207
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Posted - 2013.05.04 18:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Grezkev wrote:You're just mad that the game is reflecting a more accurate portrayal of the tank, Taka. It's breaking down your ability to exploit one aspect of it.
You will get over it. You'll have to....or you'll quit the game. That simple. I hear you can still dominate the battlefield like a joke in Battlefield Vietnam with the Soviet attack chopper. Why don't you go play that? Acurate portrayal Okay then if 1 AV person can solo a tank then why dont we just have 1 HS = death and several bullets in the chest = death Make it super realistic like life with no respawn But if we did that it would more or less be COD in space and shields/armor and everything in the game would be absolete and pointless Then again would that be fun making it into a twitch shooter? well it doesnt matter because war isnt fun but it should be accurate like life and reflect war Wrong game ther G this is DUST and not cod
Two troops in WW2 with a small rocket could take out a Panzer IV with 1-2 hits. No different from an "AV nade"
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Grezkev
The Red Guards EoN.
212
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Posted - 2013.05.04 19:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote: A Challenger tank in Iraq took over 14 RPGs and was fine except for the tracks
The tracks? You mean the thing the tank uses to move? o_0 |
Grezkev
The Red Guards EoN.
213
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Posted - 2013.05.04 19:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
The "Balance > Realism" argument.
Well, if that were true, then why do any of you care about Planetary Conquest? A game mode that essentially pits the most organized and most pre-planned corporations against a multitude of no-namers that will prolly quit the game after a few months.
Face it, PC is a game mode intended to simulate realistic territorial acquisition. It's a realistic game mode. If I wanted to play a 100% balanced game I'd go back and play Counterstrike or Socom 2. Fact is, balanced games get boring because of the fact that they are balanced: They have nuances that people can pickup on and easily exploit. We see some of this already in Dust with the spawn-camping of CRUs instead of capping.
A game needs balance so that it can work as a base; but the skills of some people are *always* going to be unbalanced against the skills of others. Nerfing or demanding "balancing" on issues such as this is just a masked way of using the word "handicap" to skilled players who happen to be better at one thing (like using the AR) as opposed to another (like the shotgun).
If anyone has Played RISK they know exactly what I'm talking about. A "balanced" game of Risk wouldn't use a map of the world...it'd use a big flat square with smaller squares making up a rectangular battlefield. Why? Because then no one could bunker down in Australia....no one could hold onto the Americas so easily...and no one would use Africa as a staging point to invade every region of the game.
RISK is balanced in terms of the preset conditions of the mechanisms of the game. The UTILITY of those mechanisms though, and the skill/experience of players that use them....THAT is what makes the game fun. The REALISTIC element of human decision making.
More important than balance, a war-game that sets up war-scenarios needs realism. It needs some way to define what it is we're actually doing. It needs in some way to be relatable to our own experiences, otherwise it becomes something in the world of fantasy.
This is Science Fiction. Fiction that is grounded in SCIENCE. Science fiction, though it has made its outrageous suggestions, is typically always grounded in some materialistic, realistic understanding. |
Grezkev
The Red Guards EoN.
213
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Posted - 2013.05.04 19:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
slap26 wrote:Grezkev wrote:
Not surprisingly, the Allies won the war and lost less tanks than anyone...including the Soviet Union who tried to use tanks in a similar way to the Germans.
Where is your source material? Quote:The ratio as measured against all Tigers lost, regardless of reason, is still a credible 5.4 to 1 kill ratio. that is a quote from CHRISTOPHER W. WILBECK, MAJ, AR and one more quote from Christopher W, Wilbeck Quote:There are only a few examples of heavy tank battalions employed as a breakthrough force. Therefore, it is difficult to assess their effectiveness accurately in the offensive role for which they were developed, organized, and fielded. In the few instances where the German leadership employed a heavy tank battalion as a consolidated unit in the offense, it achieved credible results and was successful in penetrating at least one echelon of the defensive zone. source
The Tiger Tank is one of multiple kinds of tanks used by the Germans.
My source: Ellis, John (1993). World War II - A statistical survey. Facts on File. p. 200-290. ISBN 0-8160-2971-7 Monograph
William Shirer's "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" also has some small bits on tank tactics and their efficiency in the Blitz on pages 443-500 in the standard paperback version.
Quote: Soviet Union: Between 96,500 to 100,000 tanks UK : Around 20,000 tanks USA: Around 20,000 tanks Germany: Around 45,000 to 50,000 tanks
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Grezkev
The Red Guards EoN.
217
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Posted - 2013.05.04 20:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vaerana Myshtana wrote:Grezkev wrote:slap26 wrote:[quote=Grezkev]
Not surprisingly, the Allies won the war and lost less tanks than anyone...including the Soviet Union who tried to use tanks in a similar way to the Germans.
Where is your source material? Quote: Soviet Union: Between 96,500 to 100,000 tanks UK : Around 20,000 tanks USA: Around 20,000 tanks Germany: Around 45,000 to 50,000 tanks
Umm... Technically, the Soviet Union was part of the Allies. Not a warm-and-cuddly buddy-buddy part, but officially allied to the US and UK. So, while what I think you meant was correct (US & UK lost less tanks), the exact statement was incorrect. It is also worth noting that without the Soviets zerging the Germans with Militia gear, the US and UK would likely have lost to the German's Proto gear. At the very least, the war would've lasted a lot longer.
That is true, I misused the word "Allies" I should have said the Allied Contingency Force (ACF, which was the countries that participated in Operation Overlord).
But yea, the Soviets lost the most, particularly because they were poorly built AND poorly manned.
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Grezkev
The Red Guards EoN.
217
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Posted - 2013.05.04 20:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
Vaerana Myshtana wrote:Grezkev wrote: But yea, the Soviets lost the most, particularly because they were poorly built AND poorly manned.
True dat. Though they did zerg their way to Berlin and beyond. There's something to be said for not carrying about your "comrades".
Meh, in my opinion that's painting it a bit incorrectly. They did care about their comrades; they were just much more desperate by 1944 than the ACF was. They had been fighting for years. U.S. was involved in Europe for slightly under a year. |
Grezkev
The Red Guards EoN.
217
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 20:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:An RPG achieved a mobility kill on an M1 Abrams tank, with only one round. They used a tandem warhead. It is able to defeat reactive armor. So even now on the modern battlefield a terrorist can solo a tank.
I'd call that a mix of luck with a really well placed shot using a highly effective rocket.
In Dust terms, a proto AV used at the right time after maybe an adv or proto tank's shields have already been hit. |
Grezkev
The Red Guards EoN.
217
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 20:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
DeadlyAztec11 wrote:Grezkev wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:An RPG achieved a mobility kill on an M1 Abrams tank, with only one round. They used a tandem warhead. It is able to defeat reactive armor. So even now on the modern battlefield a terrorist can solo a tank. I'd call that a mix of luck with a really well placed shot using a highly effective rocket. In Dust terms, a proto AV used at the right time after maybe an adv or proto tank's shields have already been hit. Read about it here, it's on the last paragraph
Wow that's pretty amazing.
I'd consider the Abrams on level with the Tiger II tank of WW2 and call it a prototype with tonnssss of upgrades.
But note how rare it is for that to happen. It takes the right equipment at the right time.
Quote:we've been running standard and advanced tanks for the past year. when have u seen a proto tank. blacks ops maybe but it didn't have the right modules so it was not a proto tank. there has been no proto tank but there is proto and officer av. and next build we have a upgraded sica and standard tanks. so yea we r crap until ccp decides to give us proto tanks.
True but as you already mention that will probably be fixed with the update. |
Grezkev
The Red Guards EoN.
228
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Posted - 2013.05.04 21:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
VicBoss wrote:Grezkev wrote:
We didn't see the tanks true potential and power however until World War II against the Germans in Europe. A.H's Panzerjager division was well equipped with vehicles that featured heavy armor in the front, and large powerful 80mm cannons. The use of the tank by the ***** was quite simply: Demoralize the enemy. Troops would create a line of scrimmage, then after securing a position would charge their tanks into enemy territory. The tactic was part of the German Blitzkrieg, however it came with a heavy consequence: There was a loss factor of about 40% of all tanks that engaged in the first assault.
The French and the Allies used their tanks in a different manner. Rather than arm them with large cannons that could destroy an entire building, they built smaller 45-60mm turrets that could use a variety of shells (anti-tank, anti-infantry, anti-air). Some of the tanks were even so versatile that rockets could be placed on them to fire blind into enemy territory.
In the Allied Invasion of Europe (Operation Overlord), the Canadian, British, and American forces siezed upon key cities such as Carentan in the inner regions of Northern France with the primary goal of linking up beachheads together. The reason was obvious: Tanks could not advance into France without a clear road. Infantry were required to secure areas of advancement before tanks could be used to control the area and lock it down. In other words, The Allied used the tanks as a secondary defensive line, and their primary role was to assist troops.
Not surprisingly, the Allies won the war and lost less tanks than anyone...including the Soviet Union who tried to use tanks in a similar way to the Germans.
The lesson here is simple: Tanks are not blitzkrieg devices or tools.
That's my opinion on everyone's complaints about the tanks.
The semi long version I did not read all the posts however this brings up a interesting historical point. Not to be too blunt but the Germans used Blitzkrieg to DESTROY the French early in the war. That is why all of France fell in 6 weeks. Now lets look at the French and German tanks at the beginning of the war. The French had the LARGEST and HEAVIEST tanks. They were prepared for another WWI not a WWII. The Germans had lightly armored FAST tanks. And so they simply outflanked, double envoloped, and Blitzkrieged the heck out of the French. Spearheaded by their Panzers. It was not untill later when the King Tiger came around than the Germans used big heavy tanks. The American's Sherman was picked apart and destroyed by the German tanks, Its main advantages were the fact it was small, easy to repair, and REALLY CHEAP, so the US just pumped out thousands of them. The French tanks were buried in tank trenches so they could be used as mobile artillery, and to get the best angles on their shots. Its called Blitzkrieg for a reason. Because the Germans used it very well in WWII, and it was impossible without tanks. Don't even get me started on other wars that use tanks with Blitzkrieg. Patton came in and used the Germans Blitzkrieg methods to beat the Germans. And so you have said Grezkev wrote: Tanks are not blitzkrieg devices or tools.
really Ask Heinz Guderian, Patton, or Rommel about that. Grezkev wrote: Tanks are not blitzkrieg devices or tools.
REALLY?! In short, Your military history is wrong.
You sir, apparently did not read my OP very accurately. The Blitzkriegs were effective, but had a high loss ratio of tanks in comparison to allied pushes which were done primarily through infantry platoons backed up by tanks behind them. We're talking about what the tank is ideally used for. The Blitz of the Bulge didn't help in the long run...so....yea.....
Patton didn't blitz anything, btw. Patton would be facepalming over anyone who disagrees with my OP.
"Patton trained tank crews to operate in support of infantry, and promoted its acceptance among reticent infantry officers" Source: Axelrod, Alan (2006), Patton: A Biography, London, United Kingdom: Palgrave Macmillan, ISBN 978-1403971395 Similar statement made in: Blumenson, Martin (1972), The Patton Papers: 1885GÇô1940, Boston, Massachusetts: Houghton Mifflin, ISBN 0-395-12706-8 |
Grezkev
The Red Guards EoN.
228
|
Posted - 2013.05.04 21:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
Vaerana Myshtana wrote:VicBoss wrote:Sentient Archon wrote:You know some historians actually believe that if Rommell were allowed to do what he wanted to Germany could have won the war. The 7th Panzer Especially in Russia. If he was directing Operation Barbarossa the war could have been much longer, and may have ended much more favorably for the Germans. Perhaps. He might have been able to hit Moscow before winter. If not, though... Russia was (and is) infamous for being a quagmire. Rommel (or any tank force) was extremely dependent on solid supply lines for fuel and ammo. The Russians did a very good job of interrupting those and destroying supply depots rather than allowing the Germans to seize them. Not that they started the war with a lot of supplies.
They also didn't destroy the cities, they sieged them. Another example of an Order by ****** / Not listening to Generals...going wrong. |
Grezkev
The Red Guards EoN.
230
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Posted - 2013.05.05 01:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote:This thread fails for a number of reasons:
1.NO ONE wanted or uses tanks as blitzkreigs....no GOOD tanker does this....assuming this is what we want or asked for is incorrect
2. Tanks already and always have required infantry support
3. With all due respect Grez is neither a tanker or AV player so has little to no knowledge on their problems. Ppl get mad when tanks sit in the redline and snipe and want tanks to support infantry and we agree thats what we WANT to do but CCP FORCES us to pretty much stay away from hotzones so hence u have redline rail snipers. We wanted more engaging longer lasting tank fights and CCP gave us WEAKER tanks with more dmg...........NO ONE asked for more dmg we asked for a bit more survivability but instead got enforcer tanks..........which tbqh long story short are only useful as sniper tanks so again dont complain when ppl dont support infantry like we want.
This thread does a nice job of giving us a history lesson on tanks but fails badly at recognizing the problems this video game called DUST has in the tank v tank and tank v AV department.
I use proto AV and use tanks sparingly, Mavado.
CCP doesn't force you to do anything. They make the game then you play it how you prefer to.
as for 1) I see people blitz tanks allllll the time. Not gunna name corp names, but you all know them: They deploy into an ambush or skirmish and drop 2-3 adv tanks and just go steamrolling. I even know a certain someone that I enjoy playing with in EoN who does it all the time. o_0
2) tanks require it, but rarely do I see it given. I see people rally round tanks and just use them as cover. Rarely see people actively try to defend a friendly tank. |
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