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DeadlyAztec11
One-Armed Bandits Atrocitas
163
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Posted - 2013.05.04 18:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Grezkev wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:You are an idiot
We are thousands of years ahead in the future with materials and devices which have only ever been dreamed about
Who are you to say that we havnt got a tank which is a mobile death star with tracks which can wipe out the entire team Lieutenant Taka of the Allied Corporation Red*Star of EoN, please don't talk to higher ups in such a manner. I am not an idiot, actually, I am a historian by profession and I expressed this quite simply because this is the origin of the tank. It is the only primary usage of the tank in warfare a game designer (CCP) has to work with in terms of developing their software. "We are thousands of years in the future".......We are actually playing a game that was designed in the 21st century, a game whose designers are limited to the experiences of the 20th and 21st century for their designing utility of 'the tank'. To pretend that understandings and complexities beyond our own can exist in something that we ourselves created in the present is nothing short of ignorance. Who am I to say that you haven't got a tank that's a mobile death star? Well I'm the guy that's here telling you that never happened before. And if you don't learn from history, you're bound to repeat it. Besides, when you break it all down...the game is not very different from WW2 combat. Infantry are the SHOCK troops...the primary roles of the battlefield. Their ability to put down a tank should be higher, if not equally matched, by their ability to be killed by one. Infantry have always been more mobile than tanks, and their ability to flank a tank, surround it, and destroy it should be no different "a thousand years from now" as it is today. And this is all said by someone who prefers to roll with a tank....and will roll with a tank after the update. Difference between me and the QQers is I can rationalize the change. ADAPT OR DIE. Get over it Taka. Then go talk to Nano. You can kiss my ass I do not report to anyone and if you dont like my opinion then go cry about it to nano or whoever The game is designed in this century but the lore and everything else is thousands of years ahead so things could have changed In fact why cant my tank fly instead and shoot lasers at anything that moves or throw monkeys at ppl instead Its called imagination and doesnt have to stick to the rules of the real world since its a game ******* idiot Calm down, kicking and screaming isn't going to get you anywhere on this forum. Plus, you make yourself look crude when you use insults in an attempt to prove your point. Lax
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DeadlyAztec11
One-Armed Bandits Atrocitas
164
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Posted - 2013.05.04 20:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
An RPG achieved a mobility kill on an M1 Abrams tank, with only one round. They used a tandem warhead. It is able to defeat reactive armor. So even now on the modern battlefield a terrorist can solo a tank. |
DeadlyAztec11
One-Armed Bandits Atrocitas
164
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Posted - 2013.05.04 20:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Grezkev wrote:DeadlyAztec11 wrote:An RPG achieved a mobility kill on an M1 Abrams tank, with only one round. They used a tandem warhead. It is able to defeat reactive armor. So even now on the modern battlefield a terrorist can solo a tank. I'd call that a mix of luck with a really well placed shot using a highly effective rocket. In Dust terms, a proto AV used at the right time after maybe an adv or proto tank's shields have already been hit. Read about it here, it's on the last paragraph |
DeadlyAztec11
One-Armed Bandits Atrocitas
167
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Posted - 2013.05.05 01:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
VicBoss wrote:Grezkev wrote:
We didn't see the tanks true potential and power however until World War II against the Germans in Europe. A.H's Panzerjager division was well equipped with vehicles that featured heavy armor in the front, and large powerful 80mm cannons. The use of the tank by the ***** was quite simply: Demoralize the enemy. Troops would create a line of scrimmage, then after securing a position would charge their tanks into enemy territory. The tactic was part of the German Blitzkrieg, however it came with a heavy consequence: There was a loss factor of about 40% of all tanks that engaged in the first assault.
The French and the Allies used their tanks in a different manner. Rather than arm them with large cannons that could destroy an entire building, they built smaller 45-60mm turrets that could use a variety of shells (anti-tank, anti-infantry, anti-air). Some of the tanks were even so versatile that rockets could be placed on them to fire blind into enemy territory.
In the Allied Invasion of Europe (Operation Overlord), the Canadian, British, and American forces siezed upon key cities such as Carentan in the inner regions of Northern France with the primary goal of linking up beachheads together. The reason was obvious: Tanks could not advance into France without a clear road. Infantry were required to secure areas of advancement before tanks could be used to control the area and lock it down. In other words, The Allied used the tanks as a secondary defensive line, and their primary role was to assist troops.
Not surprisingly, the Allies won the war and lost less tanks than anyone...including the Soviet Union who tried to use tanks in a similar way to the Germans.
The lesson here is simple: Tanks are not blitzkrieg devices or tools.
That's my opinion on everyone's complaints about the tanks.
The semi long version I did not read all the posts however this brings up a interesting historical point. Not to be too blunt but the Germans used Blitzkrieg to DESTROY the French early in the war. That is why all of France fell in 6 weeks. Now lets look at the French and German tanks at the beginning of the war. The French had the LARGEST and HEAVIEST tanks. They were prepared for another WWI not a WWII. The Germans had lightly armored FAST tanks. And so they simply outflanked, double envoloped, and Blitzkrieged the heck out of the French. Spearheaded by their Panzers. It was not untill later when the King Tiger came around than the Germans used big heavy tanks. The American's Sherman was picked apart and destroyed by the German tanks, Its main advantages were the fact it was small, easy to repair, and REALLY CHEAP, so the US just pumped out thousands of them. The French tanks were buried in tank trenches so they could be used as mobile artillery, and to get the best angles on their shots. Its called Blitzkrieg for a reason. Because the Germans used it very well in WWII, and it was impossible without tanks. Don't even get me started on other wars that use tanks with Blitzkrieg. Patton came in and used the Germans Blitzkrieg methods to beat the Germans. And so you have said Grezkev wrote: Tanks are not blitzkrieg devices or tools.
really Ask Heinz Guderian, Patton, or Rommel about that. Grezkev wrote: Tanks are not blitzkrieg devices or tools.
REALLY?! In short, Your military history is wrong.
You forget that the Americans also had more accurate guns as well as they were more accurate. American tanks were easily picked apart at close range, though, the Germans didn't stand a chance in ranged combat.
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DeadlyAztec11
One-Armed Bandits Atrocitas
167
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Posted - 2013.05.05 01:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote:This thread fails for a number of reasons:
1.NO ONE wanted or uses tanks as blitzkreigs....no GOOD tanker does this....assuming this is what we want or asked for is incorrect
2. Tanks already and always have required infantry support
3. With all due respect Grez is neither a tanker or AV player so has little to no knowledge on their problems. Ppl get mad when tanks sit in the redline and snipe and want tanks to support infantry and we agree thats what we WANT to do but CCP FORCES us to pretty much stay away from hotzones so hence u have redline rail snipers. We wanted more engaging longer lasting tank fights and CCP gave us WEAKER tanks with more dmg...........NO ONE asked for more dmg we asked for a bit more survivability but instead got enforcer tanks..........which tbqh long story short are only useful as sniper tanks so again dont complain when ppl dont support infantry like we want.
This thread does a nice job of giving us a history lesson on tanks but fails badly at recognizing the problems this video game called DUST has in the tank v tank and tank v AV department. This thread addresses the health and damage of vehicles. Please read. |
DeadlyAztec11
One-Armed Bandits Atrocitas
169
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Posted - 2013.05.05 05:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
VicBoss wrote:Grezkev wrote:
You sir, apparently did not read my OP very accurately. The Blitzkriegs were effective, but had a high loss ratio of tanks in comparison to allied pushes which were done primarily through infantry platoons backed up by tanks behind them. We're talking about what the tank is ideally used for. The Blitz of the Bulge didn't help in the long run...so....yea.....
Patton didn't blitz anything, btw. Patton would be facepalming over anyone who disagrees with my OP.
"Patton trained tank crews to operate in support of infantry, and promoted its acceptance among reticent infantry officers" Source: Axelrod, Alan (2006), Patton: A Biography, London, United Kingdom: Palgrave Macmillan, ISBN 978-1403971395 Similar statement made in: Blumenson, Martin (1972), The Patton Papers: 1885GÇô1940, Boston, Massachusetts: Houghton Mifflin, ISBN 0-395-12706-8
Tell me where this statement says patton did not Blitz anything. So tell my why was Ike and Bradly so afraid of Pattons supply lines being cut? Why was the famous third army charge cut short? because Patton was BLAZING across Germany in record time. Yes obviously Patton did not command only tanks and no infantry. However infantry supporting tanks or vice versa and are tanks used for Blitzing are two completely different topics. Obviously tanks need to be supported, in game and in history, a combined arms synthesis is paramount in any military, RL or not. However Patton Blitzed the Germans SOOOO hard no one knew what to do. Not even his superiors. The Blitz in the bulge was extraordinarily successful for the state of the German Army. It was on its dying breath, and it did not work like the first Blitz through the Ardennes forest because they now used larger tanks and now it was during winter. Despite this they still made ridiculous gains in land. The German army was already gone at that point, it was only a matter of time, but they went out swinging, as Fredrick the II said "Audacity, Audacity, always Audacity." BTW Patton called the attack, saying that that was what he would do in their situation. The Americans did beat them back, simply due to being in a much better place in terms of supply troop number, vehicle count, and freshness of troops. Don't even get me started on American Blitz in the Iraq War. The Allies went through western Europe fast because ****** ordered that the armies retreat back to Germany. A bad move since ****** was not a good military commander and usually evaded his generals' suggestions. When they started defending Germany it was too late. The Allies had established air superiority and all of the German tanks had been spread thinly, trying to halt the Russians.
Don't act like the Allies were adept in blitzing. They were fast but the Germans had been way faster. The allies actually planned to get across France way faster then they did. They were surprised that they had been held back by scouting units and squads that had not been able to get away fast enough. |
DeadlyAztec11
One-Armed Bandits Atrocitas
169
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Posted - 2013.05.05 05:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Charlotte O'Dell wrote:the issue isn't the tanks or the AV, it's that we have to defend against proto AV with STD gear. How long would ya'll expect to last against a viziam with 3 damage mods if you've got STD shield extenders on ur suit? not very long and that's exactly how it feels for us. Tell me that is fair. It is not.
It is because A lot of people DON'T run AV. I am the only dedicated AV guy that I know of in my corp. That being said, you know that a lot of scrubs are easily cleaned up a militia HAV. They won't even bother to run their free Swarm Launcher.
I can see why CCP decided against implementing them in open Beta. They would be too demoralizing (beating entire teams in one fellow swoop).
In Uprising though, it seems like a ton of stuff will be nerfed. Maybe even AV (my swarm will cry).
Their is not much of an excuse for not giving better vehicles though. |
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