DUST Search - If tankers want for it to take 3 people to take out your tank

Cat Merc wrote:

Cosgar wrote:

Cat Merc wrote:

If tankers want for it to take 3 people to take out your tank then it should take 3 people to man the tank.
Why should you be allowed to solo when you think AV shouldn't be?

Couple of ways to do it:
Have a driver and a gunner instead of the driver doing everything.
And also a third guy activating modules.
OR
Give bonuses to defense and offense the more people you have in your tank.

I wish to counter your question with a non related conclusion, ended with a question:
AV is too effective and versatile. Imagine if you were a shield tanking caldari assault. Now imagine that everyone on the other side of the field had scrambler rifles, flux grenades, and viziams, specifically to deal with you. Congratulations, now you know what a pilot/driver of any vehicle feels like.
AV grenade damage should be scaled down to sacrifice damage based on their versatility. Why even spec into swarms, forge gun, or even plasma cannon when you have 3 overly effective tank poppers in your mid slot at the fraction of the SP and probably a nanohive in your equipment slot to spam them?
When a tank or any vehicle hits the field, there's a chance that up to 16 people have AV ready for them, which counts up to 48 thinks that can pop that vehicle very effectively. Hell, on the 6th, that's 72 of those little buggers ready to instapop a vehicle just because they can. So yeah, ask your self, is that really fair?

All the items you listed take out shields in under a second.

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Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 798	Posted - 2013.05.04 10:36:00 - [1] - Quote If tankers want for it to take 3 people to take out your tank then it should take 3 people to man the tank. Why should you be allowed to solo when you think AV shouldn't be?
JW v Weingarten SyNergy Gaming EoN. 397	Posted - 2013.05.04 10:46:00 - [2] - Quote no, just no. it is a dumb and dumb idea and you should feel bad.
DUST Fiend OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 2794	Posted - 2013.05.04 10:46:00 - [3] - Quote Splitting the gunner and the driver would be such a buff to tanks, and I would actually want to drive one in that case. Let MAVs be the one man killing machine, HAVs should require more cooperation and coordination.
xaerael Kabiel Immobile Infantry 44	Posted - 2013.05.04 10:52:00 - [4] - Quote Tanks should be 4 man vehicles. The driver should be nothing but the driver, and switching seats should have a 3-4 second cooldown to stop hotswapping seats (consider it a plug in / boot up timer). End of the day, Tanks should be a team effort rather than an impenetrable aegis for one guy. And before anyone starts the "u jelly of tanx" nonsense, I've been running tanks for weeks, and find them duller than sniping. How someone can sit on a hill and railsnipe structures and find that an enjoyable gaming experience is beyond me.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 430	Posted - 2013.05.04 10:52:00 - [5] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: If tankers want for it to take 3 people to take out your tank then it should take 3 people to man the tank. Why should you be allowed to solo when you think AV shouldn't be? Couple of ways to do it: Have a driver and a gunner instead of the driver doing everything. And also a third guy activating modules. OR Give bonuses to defense and offense the more people you have in your tank. I wish to counter your question with a non related conclusion, ended with a question: AV is too effective and versatile. Imagine if you were a shield tanking caldari assault. Now imagine that everyone on the other side of the field had scrambler rifles, flux grenades, and viziams, specifically to deal with you. Congratulations, now you know what a pilot/driver of any vehicle feels like. AV grenade damage should be scaled down to sacrifice damage based on their versatility. Why even spec into swarms, forge gun, or even plasma cannon when you have 3 overly effective tank poppers in your mid slot at the fraction of the SP and probably a nanohive in your equipment slot to spam them? When a tank or any vehicle hits the field, there's a chance that up to 16 people have AV ready for them, which counts up to 48 thinks that can pop that vehicle very effectively. Hell, on the 6th, that's 72 of those little buggers ready to instapop a vehicle just because they can. So yeah, ask your self, is that really fair?
Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 800	Posted - 2013.05.04 10:56:00 - [6] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: If tankers want for it to take 3 people to take out your tank then it should take 3 people to man the tank. Why should you be allowed to solo when you think AV shouldn't be? Couple of ways to do it: Have a driver and a gunner instead of the driver doing everything. And also a third guy activating modules. OR Give bonuses to defense and offense the more people you have in your tank. I wish to counter your question with a non related conclusion, ended with a question: AV is too effective and versatile. Imagine if you were a shield tanking caldari assault. Now imagine that everyone on the other side of the field had scrambler rifles, flux grenades, and viziams, specifically to deal with you. Congratulations, now you know what a pilot/driver of any vehicle feels like. AV grenade damage should be scaled down to sacrifice damage based on their versatility. Why even spec into swarms, forge gun, or even plasma cannon when you have 3 overly effective tank poppers in your mid slot at the fraction of the SP and probably a nanohive in your equipment slot to spam them? When a tank or any vehicle hits the field, there's a chance that up to 16 people have AV ready for them, which counts up to 48 thinks that can pop that vehicle very effectively. Hell, on the 6th, that's 72 of those little buggers ready to instapop a vehicle just because they can. So yeah, ask your self, is that really fair? All the items you listed take out shields in under a second. Last time I checked my proto AV + 3x complex damage mods and maxed out damage skills can't take out shields and armor in one go. In exchange for the extra crew men you need you will get more damage and more eHP. Tanks shouldn't just be overly expensive dropsuits.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3677	Posted - 2013.05.04 10:58:00 - [7] - Quote [quote=Cat Merc]If tankers want for it to take 3 people to take out your tank then it should take 3 people to man the tank. Why should you be allowed to solo when you think AV shouldn't be?/quote] Tank driving has a much much much higher ISK cost, and I'm pretty sure its more SP costly as well.
Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 802	Posted - 2013.05.04 10:59:00 - [8] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: [quote=Cat Merc]If tankers want for it to take 3 people to take out your tank then it should take 3 people to man the tank. Why should you be allowed to solo when you think AV shouldn't be?/quote] Tank driving has a much much much higher ISK cost, and I'm pretty sure its more SP costly as well. Read below. We both know ISK balancing is a bad way to do it. Considering each team has 16 players, if three of those are AV the enemy has a huge advantage. So it should take the same amount of people for the enemy. In EVE this isn't a problem because you can field how many ships that you want.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 984	Posted - 2013.05.04 11:00:00 - [9] - Quote IF you're playing solo as a tanker, chances are you're going to die unless you're a railgun tank. Time and time again I run with a Squad but they cannot stop the AVer from popping me because he's in the distance, or on a mountain, or in the redline, or on top of a tower. Three Shots with a proto forge, boom.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon Plus 139	Posted - 2013.05.04 11:01:00 - [10] - Quote Tank driving has a much much much higher ISK cost, and I'm pretty sure its more SP costly as well.[/quote] A 0 isk loadout can take out a 200k prototype loadout, why can't AV loadouts, which actually cost isk, take out tanks? AV is the hard counter to tanks. Of course it's going to kill them, it's designed to.

Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 802	Posted - 2013.05.04 11:02:00 - [11] - Quote Jason Pearson wrote: IF you're playing solo as a tanker, chances are you're going to die unless you're a railgun tank. Time and time again I run with a Squad but they cannot stop the AVer from popping me because he's in the distance, or on a mountain, or in the redline, or on top of a tower. Three Shots with a proto forge, boom. And that's how it should be, a solo av can take out solo tanker. Solo AV won't be able to take out a two/three man tank.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 984	Posted - 2013.05.04 11:05:00 - [12] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Jason Pearson wrote: IF you're playing solo as a tanker, chances are you're going to die unless you're a railgun tank. Time and time again I run with a Squad but they cannot stop the AVer from popping me because he's in the distance, or on a mountain, or in the redline, or on top of a tower. Three Shots with a proto forge, boom. And that's how it should be, a solo av can take out solo tanker. Solo AV won't be able to take out a two/three man tank. States runs as a squad with Infantry Gets told he is running solo. Sits and scratches his head, confused.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 431	Posted - 2013.05.04 11:05:00 - [13] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: If tankers want for it to take 3 people to take out your tank then it should take 3 people to man the tank. Why should you be allowed to solo when you think AV shouldn't be? Couple of ways to do it: Have a driver and a gunner instead of the driver doing everything. And also a third guy activating modules. OR Give bonuses to defense and offense the more people you have in your tank. I wish to counter your question with a non related conclusion, ended with a question: AV is too effective and versatile. Imagine if you were a shield tanking caldari assault. Now imagine that everyone on the other side of the field had scrambler rifles, flux grenades, and viziams, specifically to deal with you. Congratulations, now you know what a pilot/driver of any vehicle feels like. AV grenade damage should be scaled down to sacrifice damage based on their versatility. Why even spec into swarms, forge gun, or even plasma cannon when you have 3 overly effective tank poppers in your mid slot at the fraction of the SP and probably a nanohive in your equipment slot to spam them? When a tank or any vehicle hits the field, there's a chance that up to 16 people have AV ready for them, which counts up to 48 thinks that can pop that vehicle very effectively. Hell, on the 6th, that's 72 of those little buggers ready to instapop a vehicle just because they can. So yeah, ask your self, is that really fair? All the items you listed take out shields in under a second. That was my point, vehicles have to deal with a field full of their direct counter because effectiveness isn't being sacrificed for versatility. Quote: Last time I checked my proto AV + 3x complex damage mods and maxed out damage skills can't take out shields/armor in one go. My point again, why give up a LW slot for an AV weapon when you have grenades that are just as effective at a fraction of the SP investment. Eventually AV grenades are going to render AV light weapons obsolete. Quote: In exchange for the extra crew men you need you will get more damage and more eHP. Sorry, I'm a LAV driver, not a tanker. But that sounds like a raw deal anyway. Basically tanks are just going to be dropships on treads.
Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 802	Posted - 2013.05.04 11:09:00 - [14] - Quote No loss of effectiveness? How do you figure? If I have a swarm launcher I give up an AR/LR/SR, which are all anti infantry weapons. I will be left with a SMG. AV grenades force you to get close and personal with a tank, if its a blaster tank that's the last thing you want to do.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 432	Posted - 2013.05.04 11:13:00 - [15] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: No loss of effectiveness? How do you figure? If I have a swarm launcher I give up an AR/LR/SR, which are all anti infantry weapons. I will be left with a SMG. AV grenades force you to get close and personal with a tank, if its a blaster tank that's the last thing you want to do. Because you don't have to give up your AR/LR/SR to use AV because the AV grenade can do the job just fine. Even if you have to get a bit closer, those things do an absurd amount of damage. I'm just saying make the grenades weaker, but AV light weapons more powerful to balance things out.
Cat Merc BetaMax. CRONOS. 802	Posted - 2013.05.04 11:17:00 - [16] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: No loss of effectiveness? How do you figure? If I have a swarm launcher I give up an AR/LR/SR, which are all anti infantry weapons. I will be left with a SMG. AV grenades force you to get close and personal with a tank, if its a blaster tank that's the last thing you want to do. Because you don't have to give up your AR/LR/SR to use AV because the AV grenade can do the job just fine. Even if you have to get a bit closer, those things do an absurd amount of damage. I'm just saying make the grenades weaker, but AV light weapons more powerful to balance things out. Nah. AV light weapons are already beasts, no need to "balance things out" if you nerf AV nades.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 433	Posted - 2013.05.04 11:21:00 - [17] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cosgar wrote: Cat Merc wrote: No loss of effectiveness? How do you figure? If I have a swarm launcher I give up an AR/LR/SR, which are all anti infantry weapons. I will be left with a SMG. AV grenades force you to get close and personal with a tank, if its a blaster tank that's the last thing you want to do. Because you don't have to give up your AR/LR/SR to use AV because the AV grenade can do the job just fine. Even if you have to get a bit closer, those things do an absurd amount of damage. I'm just saying make the grenades weaker, but AV light weapons more powerful to balance things out. Nah. AV light weapons are already beasts, no need to "balance things out" if you nerf AV nades. Do you agree that AV 'nades are the problem then?
Sir Meode Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 467	Posted - 2013.05.04 11:21:00 - [18] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: And that's how it should be, a solo av can take out solo tanker. Solo AV won't be able to take out a two/three man tank. Im afraid you sir have no idea, that is not how it should be. Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Tank driving has a much much much higher ISK cost, and I'm pretty sure its more SP costly as well. A 0 isk loadout can take out a 200k prototype loadout, why can't AV loadouts, which actually cost isk, take out tanks? AV is the hard counter to tanks. Of course it's going to kill them, it's designed to. Militia forge gun fit is free, it can take out 2m ISK proto tanks. your argument is invalid
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 984	Posted - 2013.05.04 11:23:00 - [19] - Quote AV isn't balanced, go and look at the Dedicated AV thread, we expect those guys to kill us, they are our hard counters, the people that specialize in taking Vehicles out, but people who put a couple of k SP into Grenades should be more of a distraction solo, not a threat unless it's 3-4 of them. This coming from someone who runs proto AV aswell as "proto tanks", and regularly runs in infantry squads with people that have proto nades and have no issue against Sagaris/Suryas.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 408	Posted - 2013.05.04 11:37:00 - [20] - Quote Tanks is generally not a solo thing to do unless you are railgun tanking even then you can get caught easily by AV because its just you I generally tank with one other person who watches my back and generally everything else - thats is a 2man job and is called teamwork The AV hunting me is solo and can dish out enough damage that i stay away or it kills me Tanking is a major time/SP/ISK sink where AV is not, i have to train up skills for stuff i wont even use Why should AV be solo but tanking require teamwork?

Rums McCuUladh Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2	Posted - 2013.05.04 11:48:00 - [21] - Quote Maybe AV grenades should have the damage nerfed but add some sort of 'Disabling' feature so not any scrub can destroy a tank with a few nades but can still stop a tank from simply waltzing in and destroying everything without resistance. So the disabling feature could come in the form of deactivating the turrets and/or tracks leaving the tank vulnerable to other proper AV specialist moving up on the but if none of them are around then at least the scrub with a few nades can't destroy the tank without a full squad spamming the tank for ages. Not a perfect solution but better than just nerfing everything!
Don Von Hulio Not Guilty EoN. 215	Posted - 2013.05.04 11:49:00 - [22] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: If tankers want for it to take 3 people to take out your tank then it should take 3 people to man the tank. Why should you be allowed to solo when you think AV shouldn't be? We both know that money is not the way to balance (Pooping Titans on demand). Couple of ways to do it: Have a driver and a gunner instead of the driver doing everything. And also a third guy activating modules. OR Give bonuses to defense and offense the more people you have in your tank. OH SHIIIIEEEET YOU JUST INVADED THE FORUMS WITH LOGIC. ****!
Sev Alcatraz The Tritan Industries RISE of LEGION 265	Posted - 2013.05.04 12:03:00 - [23] - Quote Why should i put skill points into something someone else id going to use Dumb idea is dumb We have ship that are 30km long and can be piloted by one man, yet you think a tank less the 10 feet wide and 25 feet long needs a crew? Get out dont let the door hit you on the way out
Rums McCuUladh Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2	Posted - 2013.05.04 12:19:00 - [24] - Quote Sev Alcatraz wrote: Why should i put skill points into something someone else id going to use Dropships... And we don't even get adecent WP return for it :/
Don Von Hulio Not Guilty EoN. 215	Posted - 2013.05.04 12:23:00 - [25] - Quote Sev Alcatraz wrote: Why should i put skill points into something someone else id going to use Dumb idea is dumb We have ship that are 30km long and can be piloted by one man, yet you think a tank less the 10 feet wide and 25 feet long needs a crew? Get out dont let the door hit you on the way out Your comment doesnt really make sense. What i am reading it sounds like you dont want people to skill the way you do because you think you know something.... now what that something is.... could it be, tanks arent as bad as people say?
Icy TIG3R Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 112	Posted - 2013.05.04 12:24:00 - [26] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: [quote=Cat Merc]If tankers want for it to take 3 people to take out your tank then it should take 3 people to man the tank. Why should you be allowed to solo when you think AV shouldn't be?/quote] Tank driving has a much much much higher ISK cost, and I'm pretty sure its more SP costly as well. Read below. We both know ISK balancing is a bad way to do it. Considering each team has 16 players, if three of those are AV the enemy has a huge advantage. So it should take the same amount of people for the enemy. In EVE this isn't a problem because you can field how many ships that you want. By that logic, tanks should.cost 300 k total.
Coleman Gray GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 228	Posted - 2013.05.04 12:31:00 - [27] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: If tankers want for it to take 3 people to take out your tank then it should take 3 people to man the tank. Why should you be allowed to solo when you think AV shouldn't be? We both know that money is not the way to balance (Pooping Titans on demand). Couple of ways to do it: Have a driver and a gunner instead of the driver doing everything. And also a third guy activating modules. OR Give bonuses to defense and offense the more people you have in your tank. Because packed grenades dmg goes from standard=2000 adv= 3000 and proto is 4000, so lets go off protogear comparisons here. Proto swarm launched 6 missles each doing a base damage of 300, so 6x300= 1800 dmg a barrage with missles that A: need to travel and could miss by hitting terrain ect. Forge guns require you to charge up and maintain LOS with the target and deals something like 1700-1800 per hit. But Proto AV grenades deal 4000 base, as long as you throw it into the general direction of the target it'll home in and hit, you can throw them over terrain so you don't need LOS, and even if they miss they'll either home into the nearest target or lay on the ground still active for awhile. So it does really take mulitple people to take a tank out using swarm launchers and Forge guns but only one grenadier to take the tank out with supreme ease in comparison while still having an effective primary weapon for infantry. The real problem is simply AV grenades, they defeat the purpose of over AV weapons. Why should one man be able to take out 500,000+ isk of tank with 25,000 of gear that doesn't hamper you in anyway?
Charlotte O'Dell Faabulous 255	Posted - 2013.05.04 12:35:00 - [28] - Quote Only when eve ships require 2 pilots.
Coleman Gray GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 228	Posted - 2013.05.04 12:38:00 - [29] - Quote However Cat Merc I like the idea o your last suggestion, turret skills of each pilot has all contributing to the tank
Don Von Hulio Not Guilty EoN. 216	Posted - 2013.05.04 12:42:00 - [30] - Quote Those numbers are useless on Shield tanks. AV is ballz.



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