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Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
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Posted - 2013.05.04 06:36:00 -
[1] - Quote
Jotun Hiem wrote:
CCP took one of the most finicky weapons in the game and said "we're lowering its stats." That's a good way to **** a bunch of people off, especially when the weapon is considered lackluster by the majority of the player community to begin with. It doesn't help that even reducing the HMG's damage by as little as two points would cost the weapon over 10% of its base damage. It's a sticky situation and CCP does not have a great track record when it comes to bringing weapons into line.
HTFU 
one of the cornerstones of the heavies are UP arguments was in relation to their SP and ISK cost. The fact the HMGs and Heavy suits had a far larger SP commitment additional proto versions of the weapons and suits were extemely out of proportion compared to other classes in the same tier.
Amarr Sentinel
* Sentinel Suit Bonus: 5% reduction to weapon feedback damage per level
Weapon tiers streamlined so that more side grades are unlocked in the advanced tier and more exotic variants in the prototype tier
Lowered prices on standard and advanced items in all categories while keeping the price level of prototype items mostly intact
* Simplified the pricing on dropsuits GÇô thereGÇÖs now just one price category (i.e. heavy dropsuits now cost the same as assault dropsuits of the same meta level)
* Simplified the pricing of weapons GÇô they now have two price categories, primary weapons and sidearms (i.e. heavy machine guns will now cost the same as assault rifles, and nova knives the same as scrambler pistols of the same meta level)
Moreover EHP is greater when built up, Armor tanking is viable due to plate variants that dont effect movement speed. (they can also tweak those base stats on the suit if need be as well as the HMG)
So not only are the weapons cheaper but the SP sink is diminished for equivalent levels of the same suits. Additionally with less prerequisites than needed now to get equivalent levels of assualt and other suits means less SP commitment to the creation of the build.
Yet the myopic, too long dont read summarize everything in 140 character chunks approach to viewing the picture, rather than learning to step back and see the whole "board" is the reason for the outrage. Many of the major arguments that were used to prop up the heavies suck, ccp ruined heavies, heavies are UP threads over the last few months are gone.
Less SP to get into the weapons and suits by virtue of the changes in the skill progression system
Normalized and fixed cost for the suits and weapons so they are no longer disproportionate to the other suits
The global reduction cost of EVERYTHING in terms of ISK(look at cazedrons and novas vid and actually look at those prices(yet our payouts are remaining at current levels, which means far easier to maintain profitability in "inferior" class.
You can get more effective tank because of changes to how armor functions
But this is most important. People forgot that when you create a character what are the classes they are
Artificer, Arbitrer, Enforcer, Sentinel
Enforcer:
The ultimate frontline soldiers, Enforcers specialize in direct assault and close-quarters combat.
Sentinel:
Sentinels are trained and equipped to neutralize vehicular threats on the battlefield. Often the last line of defense, they never flinch and never retreat.
Nowhere does the role suggest you are mobile tank if anything you are the line. You are meant to hold the fort and not sway from it.
Fact is people chose the heavy class because they thought of it as a DMG dealer. It is a Tank(it absorbs dmg and distract the dmg dealing slayers, while the (healers, logis) kept them afloat(if you ever had a fractal on your back or sat atop a tight defensive killbox with the (eye of sauron: a bunch of lvl 4-5 triage only hives and ammo hives) you'd know thats how to play a sentinel class.
The problem isn't AR 514 its everyone tries to play the other roles like they are the AR slayer role. CCP spoiled you by actually letting you get away with it for a while but in truth your job is by nature bullet sponge and suppression(thats what HMG's are for) Oh before i forget anyone in a competitve match know how ruthless an officer HMG with Dmg mods can be(now with armor tank being viable its even more so) ask the Hellstorm's that played PFB for 200M ISK what they can be like.
So to quote some common phrases, HTFU and more importantly Adapt or die. This is a squad based tactical shooter which is very much how a raiding party in MMO functions as a unit not a collection of individual pieces.
Perhaps it time this base learned to play their roles and if they cant or dont like it pick one that they can play.
The HEAVY SENTINEL is a SSR(situational support role), quit the QQ and learn to play it.
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Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
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200
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Posted - 2013.05.04 06:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
Coleman Gray wrote:The sentinel classs says it can withstand small arms fire, yet assault suits last longer.
Withstand doesnt mean invincible. And no where does it say that the heavy role is supposed to be able to withstand and return the fire.
It serves as a distraction and tank while damage dealers use the distraction to capitalize and kill the enemies while distracted on the heavy and then a support logi revives should it fall, however a proper logi maintains a high grade rep tool(something ppl werent skilling into because the cost of SP and ISK meant people played the role more as an individual as well instead of as unit).
Two heavies supported by two separate logis in a 2x 2 fracatal pattern (either simulatenously while heavies provide covering fire) to allow the 2 assaults or 1 assualt and 1 scout team to flank and mop up) or alternating fashion while they soften the enemy lines with grenades or support fire. But this require actualy tactics and coordinated play. Something many seem to forget or simply haven't learned to do.
Moreover the suits have more EHP in the way they can fit modules. One of the largest issues was the type B and Proto difference wasnt that great especially when ISK was factored into the equation. And while proto suits are staying relatively the same a very important points that is overlooked is
* Lowered prices on standard and advanced items in all categories while keeping the price level of prototype items mostly intact
* Simplified the pricing on dropsuits GÇô thereGÇÖs now just one price category (i.e. heavy dropsuits now cost the same as assault dropsuits of the same meta level)
This means that the proto end is staying the approximately the same as they are now but are also normalized so that across meta level they identical in price. So a proto assault suit will cost as much as a proto heavy suit.
Furthermore armor tanking becomes viable because of the added variants of armor plates. which allows for the usage of dmg mods that can augment the HMG or use shiled extender (which can be skilled to be more effective just like armor) heavies are seen in uprising with 400+ shield and armor so thats more than enough tank without the movement penalties you see now.
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Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
200
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Posted - 2013.05.04 06:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Quill Killian wrote:Preach it, Keyser! Put the fear of God into them!
Im keyser soze, i am greater than god. Seriously if you don't know the source of my namesake, watch The Usual Suspects and thank me later as you watch Kevin Spacey play hands down one of the best roles in movies. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
201
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Posted - 2013.05.04 07:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kiro Justice wrote:
Uh-oh. AR514 CodBoi...See...Your argument would be valid except the nerf to HMG damage is really...Bad. Why would I be suppressed when your gun does less damage than mine? I'll just kill you instead. Hell, The MD and AR are the best suppression weapons in the game right now, and what suits use those two weapons...? Assault suit...? Are you sure? Nah, couldn't be...
I play a Logi and will also go stealth assasin, and i will LOL you heavies while i sneak on your pathetically poor scan radius and undercut you with my knives while you think you are safe as a bullet sponge tank.
But then again i have no shortage of imagination which means attacking problems in unique and unforeseeable ways. Too bad this game has no need for tactical gameplay and all of these tactics and strategies are wasted in COD 514  |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
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203
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Posted - 2013.05.04 07:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Jotun Hiem wrote:
The problem with that part of your post where you describe the Heavy's strength...
The Heavy and the Heavy Machine Gun fail at all of those things.
Two guys will kill a Heavy just as dead as if he were a Scout. Logi or no Logi. One with cover that doesn't run out in front of the Heavy like an idiot will do the same thing.
Heavies have no mobility. They take the long way everywhere, they can't just dart into cover like literally everyone else can, and they can't avoid a grenade that has been cooked.
The Heavy machine Gun already has the third lowest range in the game, exceeding only SMGs and Shotguns, but the prime strength of both of those weapons is that they kill extremely quickly within their optimum ranges. A shotgun is just silly at close range (as it should be), and the SMG will tear through any suit if you're able to get a solid stream of ADS bullets onto your target (easily doable in almost every suit, sept the heavy because their turning in ADS is abysmal). The HMG won't kill much faster than the Assault Rifle, and even then you have to be in optimum range or else almost half of your bullets will straight up miss the target because the game says so.
I get to be the line? Hooray! I get to stand in front of the objectives! Almost all of which are open to some form of flanking or long range harassment, which is my exact weakness... yay.
Oh! But if I crouch and expend a quarter of my ammunition, I can actually hit things! Too bad that leaves my cranium out the open for almost everyone else to shoot at, especially since nearly all the light weapons have a longer effective range than the HMG does. It also forces me to be a stationary target.
Then play a different role because your job is to stay stationary, or you know use LAVs to overcome the mobility(perhaps G-slick needs to make a comeback and teach you all the art of murder taxi) (Hell dropships dropping heavies are even better) Your job isnt to move from objective to objective (thats pub play noob stuff) In real competition you protect the objectives and guard the flanks. If you guys actaully played more organized matches against teams that do these things you'd learn but instead you duck them. Its okay blame the IMPS, i guess in our hiatus people had noone to challenge you all, forcing you to adapt or die. Not to worry though we will be schooling the community soon enough in FW and PC when you see what a well oiled machine of 16 functioning as 1 looks like. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
204
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Posted - 2013.05.04 07:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Yes, because I love being shoehorned into a corner and told no matter what I do to the contrary, i will never be able to escape the box I have been stuffed in.
If I can't have an HMG that's actually capable of dishing out pain then there's little pioint of going heavy. Forge gun is a blast but I'm not going to skill into a suit with one viable weapon.
And no, ARs don't count, I prefer running AR on lighter suits.
Thats the role, see you want to dish out pain. Sorry a rapid fire large clip weapon like HMG(HEAVY MACHINE GUN) is designed for suppression not killing, if you want to kill play support.
If you dont want to be pigeon holed then get more SP to play other roles(Its a SSR; situational support role). It seems that people want their role to be the jack of all trades mantra of assualt ARs, but they arent.
You also overlooked two different ways a heavy can be played in combat but you ignore that because you want to fit your playstyle into the role rather then the other way around. Fact is its not us ruined by COD but players like yourself where you can take a LMG/HMG and be as effective as a player using an AR in those games.
Perhaps if you played more tactical squad based shooters you'd appreciate the difference, and even many of those games made those roles more versatile because they had to be given the smaller player counts so if the devs didnt want those games to be full time AR they needed those roles to function a little like a slayer.
In 16 v 16 and eventual 32v32 48v48 the roles can actually play their roles without harming the need for versatility because the player count allows for it.
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Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
204
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Posted - 2013.05.04 07:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Cosgar wrote:
Wait until he sees how ****y the AR is going to be on Monday. Let's see who gives a flying kitten about his walls of text then.
That's because this "HTFU and more importantly Adapt or die." is actually code for this "  "
ARs are already gimped in range they dont fill the mid range at all. Doesnt change the fact that thats their niche along with agility and mobility allowing them to function in CQC but proper teamfire and assualts drop.
But please roll all ARs or all Heavies/shotguns like ppl like to in 8v8. This is the problem with the base, they try to use the queen for eveything when you have rooks, knights bishops. Hell even pawns and the king can be used to create and/or press advantage if the person moving the pieces knows what they are doing.
I feel sorry for people who don't have players like that who can lead them and FC a proper FPS tactical team.
Resists the urge to shamelessly namedrop members of his own corp and calls it a night on the forum warrioring. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
205
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Posted - 2013.05.04 07:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
Shouper of BHD wrote:read something in the OP (didn`t see anyone mention it in the comments so I`ll take a whack at it and see if I`m wrong), the way the ISK cost compared to different items isn`t the same in the OP as it is in the patch notes, from what I read:
weapons: first step was to put category's, side arm, light and heavy, then place tech lv, all the light weapons of the same tech lv will cost the same, if its a different weapon class or tech it will have a different cost, so side arm STD will be cheaper then heavy STD, this on the other hand doesn`t apply to drop suits, drop suits it only matters the tech lv not role. as for DSes (Drop Ships) the cost will be 50% of the current build and the one viewed from fan fest (note, they were holding back in fan Fest, the patch notes are the real deal.... on the other hand, the assault DSes priced wouldn`t be new if it were halved so that might have been the real price for the assault DSes) turrets will cost more and vehicle modules will be cheaper. STD and ADV tech gear will be cheaper and PRO gear will be roughly the same.
Simplified the pricing on dropsuits GÇô thereGÇÖs now just one price category (i.e. heavy dropsuits now cost the same as assault dropsuits of the same meta level) |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
205
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Posted - 2013.05.04 07:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cosgar wrote:Jotun Hiem wrote:Cosgar wrote:NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote: HTFU and more importantly Adapt or die. Where were you to defend heavies when it was all the assault users that were QQing? Bunch of hypocrites. Wait until he sees how ****y the AR is going to be on Monday. Let's see who gives a flying kitten about his walls of text then. How'd they change it? I know they took SS out, but I'm playing without SS right now and I'm doing fine. Did they do something else? No SS = No more pub stomping, limited to ~80m, snipers/lasers having more fun, and my MD bringing the pain. ARs still need a damage nerf though but that's never gonna happen.
Actually they don't you do realize that the majority of that pain comes from stacked dmg mods in addition to weaponry+proficiency dmg bumps. This combined with SS allowing the added damage to increasing effective ranges thus allowing for long range sustained DPS is the reason the AR's seem so overwhelming.
Officer weapons you may have a point. But also it should be noted that shield 514 contributed to this as the caldari assault B and vk.1 allowed a massive amount of base shield HP which when combined with shield regs and dmg mods allowed for sustained high output DPS in a high regenerative health suit that could be effective at far enough ranges that it could strafe dodge incoming fire and get into cover if shields broke and recover quickly
This is what i mean by understanding confounding variables and the fact its not a single tool but how the pieces are put together to create that result.
I highly recommed players read up on proper methodology and statistical analysis in relation to research science or data analyis. Specifically limitations and various biases(lead time, pagmilian effect, sample bias, population bias, and confounding variables)
A quick simple example.
When studying for the link between asbestos exposure and lung cancer if a researcher doesn't account for the confounder of smoking(a known cause of lung Ca) then the data is biased as it doesnt take that variable out by controlling for its influence.
Simply put x + y as it relates to Z if one wants to see the link between X and Z then you must control for the influence of Y.
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Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
Negative-Feedback
205
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Posted - 2013.05.04 07:54:00 -
[10] - Quote
NeoWraith Acedia wrote:Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:
ARs are already gimped in range they dont fill the mid range at all. Doesnt change the fact that thats their niche
So you're telling me their niche is mid range, even though you claim that they can't actually do it because they lack range?Next you're going to tell me that bunnies are apex predators? Look I agree with you in that most heavies do QQ a little too much, and that there's a whole mess of terrible heavies out there, but there's also many valid points for why heavies weren't as OP as people claimed they were, and that the changes made to the HMG currently look completely unjustified. I say currently look because theirs still a lot we don't know.
The base range is in fact far closer to 30M compared to a 40-50M range(this can be seen by the distance from Charlie to CRU on line harvest). HMG's could pull 75+ with the base plus skills. AR's could pull similar numbers, and outright i will say SS once you added the proficiency was stupid long. SS was the most important skill in the game to remove because now everyone shares identical ranges and it can only be skilled to become more accurate down range.
Also hotfixes people. Ranges can be hotfixed. |
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Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
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Posted - 2013.05.04 23:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote: snip
Actaully its about playing each role to their suited needs. You want to be the guy that kicks the door down laying out intense damage while being a walking tank. Sorry role doesnt exist
Rogue=Assassin
Dmg dealer=Slayer
Logi=Priest
Tank=Tank
Be a bullet sponge and learn to love it
Yes this is a rudimentary and oversimplification of the roles but they still hold true in many respects.
It doesnt change that people are trying to make the heavy class into a slayer role when its purpose is meatshield. Learn to play it and find people that can support you in it. A heavy when supported by Logis are insane.
Get out of the COD Army of one mentality and get into a squad with complimentary roles and then tell me heavies are broken or don't work.
Like i said learn to play the role and adapt your playstyle to the role instead of the converse.
If you desire is to be a slayer then pick the role designed to be that role.
Sentinel (The role is self-explanatory) its hardly my problem you can't understand that. Breaking your psychological conditioning that the only way to be of help to your team is to rack up kills.
Heavies are are role by their design meant to be meatshield not damage dealer. You are also meant to be the anti vehicle class. too bad vehicles are not being specced into. But thats a different conversation. Lest you forget the class is defaulted into AV weaponry before people willingly spec into the HMG weapon. Oh this isn't opinion, this is based on the descriptions of the class itself which i have pulled from CCP's website and character creation screen. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
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Posted - 2013.05.05 00:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
J'Jor Da'Wg wrote:Also double post but you seem to favor lacing your posts with higher vocabulary and uncommon theories and concepts in order to establish your own validity? Sorry, I don't really want to know why you consider yourself so credible.
Just tell me your opinions, try and back it up with facts, and if you must explain a relevant concept but don't rattle off a list of how you imply you somehow are more educated.
Dafuq?
Gave you facts, gave you also insights into where common mistakes in opposition arguments exist. I don't lorde my education over anyone but when i speak i factor in that not everyone reading it understands the logic that leads to my conclusions. It reduced confusion and needless back and forth.
Its actually a workflow of stepwise logic. Since facts are meaningless if not put into context. |
Keyser Soze VerbalKint
IMPSwarm
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Posted - 2013.05.05 01:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
Gelan Corbaine wrote:Keyser Soze VerbalKint wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote: snip snips some more. If you desire is to be a slayer then pick the role designed to be that role. Sentinel (The role is self-explanatory) its hardly my problem you can't understand that. Breaking your psychological conditioning that the only way to be of help to your team is to rack up kills. Heavies are are role by their design meant to be meatshield not damage dealer. You are also meant to be the anti vehicle class. too bad vehicles are not being specced into. But thats a different conversation. Lest you forget the class is defaulted into AV weaponry before people willingly spec into the HMG weapon. Oh this isn't opinion, this is based on the descriptions of the class itself which i have pulled from CCP's website and character creation screen. That's all fine and good just one little problem. A Scout is rewarded for doing his role plus killing. A Logi is rewarded for doing his role plus killing . An Assault is rewarded for doing his job plus he can do extra tasks like revive or resupply and get rewarded for that. However a Heavy gets no reward for doing his role . There is no reward for standing in front of your logi and being shot in the face. There is no reward for standing in front of point waiting and hoping that the enemy team is actually stupid enough to try to come close up to take it from you instead of simply filling the place with mass drivers. There is little to no reward for putting a stream of bullets on rock to suppress the enemy behind it while your assault moves in for the kill. The only thing we get rewarded for is killing people ..... and this build seems to severely limit that. When we fall behind in WP production by simply by doing what we are supposed to do something is wrong. When it takes an astounding Heavy to match the WP contribution of an average Slayer something is wrong. It's wrong because when it comes time to divide up the loot the heavy will always be the smaller piece compared to his counterparts of equal skill. This means less SP and Isk which in turn means slower progression in comparison to other roles which hurts in this build that punishes generalization and forces specialization.( Yes yes I know DS pilots I feel for you too .) A little bit more pain , a minor one but still annoying , when you realize Heavy needs a bit more mandatory SP for his role compared to other roles . AV heavies also has it's problems ..... mostly due to lack of targets and that we're only rewarded if we get the kill shot despite how damage we do. TLDR : There is little incentive for Heavies to do their job the "right" way....
I agree. But thats not a issue of the heavy class, in fact the argument should be made their needs to be a way to incentivize playing the heavy role the way its meant to be played, i would argue in this regard they get an even bigger shaft than Dropship pilots.
Heavies also have access to some serious AV, Anti-installation weaponry that will allow them to pick apart enemy support structures. This is a vital role especially when the time comes that we can drop this onto the battlefield ourselves, unfortunately now they are fixed in number.
Another argument to be made is that heavies as a specialty given that its a limited support role should be even easier to spec into compared to other roles.
Im working on a thread that discusses versatility is the FPS equivalent of an MMO level 99 character. And that the MMO approach of one role, for long grind is not the way one should what constitutes a high level character. But i dont want to get into it yet until i have fleshed it out.
Stay TunedGäó |
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